Casey Anthony attorneys: Throw out murder indictment

[JSR]

I did understand your post. and I do understand your position. Both are wrong. I don't want such falsehoods to be believed, because for some posters here, jury duty will certainly be in their future, and they should not be carrying such notions with them when called to serve.

I'm going to use a hypo to clarify why even if a 100% of the evidence were to work for the State with 0% favoring the defense, that would not necessarily be sufficient to validly convict Casey of first degree murder.

Snipped for brevity ....

If what you said above were true then the 100% of the evidence would have shown that premeditated murder indeed was proven beyond a reasonable doubt. No one is saying that if all the evidence admitted is in favor of the state then it's automatic that a guilty verdict will be rendered. Of course the state will have to prove all points necessary to get a guilty verdict. That would be ridiculous to think that a jury would gloss over certain aspects necessary to render a just verdict. What you want is definite singular proof of guilt. And I'm saying that will never happen. This jury is going to look at the totality of the evidence and piece it together like a puzzle. It's all about how the jury interprets the evidence. The jury isn't going to say well Casey's DNA isn't on the tape. Well then we can't convict her. They aren't going to need that singular slam dunk evidence that proves she did it.

I've heard many posters say but the smell in the car isn't enough. And of course the smell in the car alone isn't enough, but it's a small piece of the puzzle in regards to this case. The problem is we haven't seen all the evidence and we haven't yet seen how the SA will piece everything together.

The jury instructions will be crafted in a way for the jury to organize the evidence and how they will be allowed to evaluate it. But it's the judge who decides on the jury instructions and I have every faith that they will be just and proper.

We've seen much of the evidence but we haven't seen all of it. And one of the most important aspects of a case is the WAY in which it's presented to the jury. Although you say you don't think the state has enough evidence to prove murder I highly disagree. We have no way of knowing HOW the state plans to present the evidence, and that's really the key. I have a feeling the state is going to be able to box Casey in like no other. And I have every faith that they will prove all aspects necessary to prove murder one in FL.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

And if you ask a crack prosecuting attorney like V. Bugliosi, who wrote a book about why the prosecution mucked up the case and did not get a guilty verdict, he'll say that the court of public opinion was correct, their assumptions were proven in trial, and that the mishandling of the prosecution and the excellent deflection tactics of the defense won out to have OJ acquitted. Of course the civil trial did not go the same way and OJ himself has openly implied he did it, and privately practically admitted it. So the court of public opinion, contrary to your supposition, has really no important influence over the actual trial or ultimately to do with what kind of verdict is given and cannot be unnecessarily demonized as a culprit; it appears that the most important element in a not-guilty jury, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, is a Dream Team.

I totally agree with you, that the court of public opinion ultimately has no important influence over the actual trial or verdict. The court of public opinion is just that, the court of public opinion. It is my opinion that the media is guilty of swaying the court of public opinion in this case, as it was in the OJ case. The media is a necessary evil. I have a love hate relationship with them. The part of the media I hate is when they villify anyone before all the facts are known. In this case there has been a lot of collateral damage dealt by the press, and many have been unfairly villified (if thats a word). I think its a shame, but where the media is involved that is the nature of the beast.

 

[JBean]

This is admittedly kind of offtopic but it is timely information for the case. Since we are discussing jury instructions on and off in the threads, this is an intersting read for us. This is from a few days ago:

Fla. justices respond to death penalty confusion

By BILL KACZOR

Associated Press Writer

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- The Florida Supreme Court revised standard jury instructions for death penalty cases Thursday in ways the justices hope will reduce widespread confusion among jurors disclosed by an American Bar Association survey.
An ABA team studying Florida's death penalty process three years ago found large percentages of jurors misunderstood the law and their role in deciding death cases.

snip

also of interest in the same article:
The high court in a 2005 opinion also urged lawmakers to require unanimous jury votes for death recommendations, but the Legislature has refused to make that change. Some legal experts say federal courts may begin overturning Florida death sentences because the state lacks such a requirement.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/AP/story/1306563.html

 

[Searchfortruth]

I have total faith in those that serve on a jury and I believe they take the oath seriously. It's hard not to when you are staring at the person whose freedom may be affected by your decision. The OJ trial was very widely covered in the media, I watched the trial from start to finish. But, Casey is no OJ...she doesn't have the same celebrity status and lets face it, LA is NOT Florida.

 

[spqr]

I think they were called "sneak and peak" warrants...or something like that.


ETA: http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2009/10/08-8

You are correct in the sneak and peak...but, they are sneak and peak "warrants". Signed by a judge. (not disputing with you by the way). I believe the original poster I was replying to led me to believe that the Govt just came in to your home "at will", without a warrant, looked around, etc.... here is a link to the sneak and peak definition and cases sites.

http://www.lawsch.uga.edu/academics/profiles/dwilkes_more/37patriot.html

 

[spqr]

If they suspect you of terrorism the Patriot Act allows them to disregard all of your rights as far as search, seizure and detainment. Local LE is not likely to try to use that it a murder suspicion since all the evidence would be thrown out later since it would not be be terrorism related.

BBM

Terrorism, that is a whole new ball of wax...

And I agree with you. Just trying to make clear a sometimes very ambiguous rule of law and one not so easily read and interpreted.

 

[Wudge]

I did understand your post. and I do understand your position. Both are wrong. I don't want such falsehoods to be believed, because for some posters here, jury duty will certainly be in their future, and they should not be carrying such notions with them when called to serve.

I'm going to use a hypo to clarify why even if a 100% of the evidence were to work for the State with 0% favoring the defense, that would not necessarily be sufficient to validly convict Casey of first degree murder.

Snipped for brevity ....


SNIP

What you want is definite singular proof of guilt. And I'm saying that will never happen.

SNIP

Correct. At least one item of highly reliable inculpatory circumstantial evidence is needed in this case -- there's no direct evidence in this case -- that proves (forces a highly reliable conclusion) premeditation at the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt

Reliability coefficients are not additive. You cannot take an item of evidence that might point to premeditation at a reliability level of 40% and then take a second item of evidence that might point to premeditation at a reliability level of 35% and then take a third item of evidence that might point to premeditation at a reliability level of 45% and add the three reliability coefficients to conclude that the evidence proves with 120% certainty that a premeditated murder was committed.

HTH

 

[Wudge]

This is admittedly kind of offtopic but it is timely information for the case. Since we are discussing jury instructions on and off in the threads, this is an intersting read for us. This is from a few days ago:

Fla. justices respond to death penalty confusion

By BILL KACZOR

Associated Press Writer

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- The Florida Supreme Court revised standard jury instructions for death penalty cases Thursday in ways the justices hope will reduce widespread confusion among jurors disclosed by an American Bar Association survey.
An ABA team studying Florida's death penalty process three years ago found large percentages of jurors misunderstood the law and their role in deciding death cases.

snip

also of interest in the same article:
The high court in a 2005 opinion also urged lawmakers to require unanimous jury votes for death recommendations, but the Legislature has refused to make that change. Some legal experts say federal courts may begin overturning Florida death sentences because the state lacks such a requirement.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/AP/story/1306563.html

The number of people executed because jurors did not understand the jury instructions is?

(There's no need to ponder the answer. We will never know.)

 

[TotallyObsessed]

BBM

Terrorism, that is a whole new ball of wax...

And I agree with you. Just trying to make clear a sometimes very ambiguous rule of law and one not so easily read and interpreted.

I am truly sorry for taking this thread OT on this subject and this is my last post on the "search and seizure" topic.

I originally posted replying to another poster who stated in part: "You need to get a warrant for stuff like that, which means you have to prove to the magistrate (at least here in Va) that you have at least something to go on. You just can't barge into people's houses and start looking for stuff, even if you ARE the police. That's what is cool about being an American. ..."

I was really only refuting that just simply being an American did not protect you from LE (or really Federal LE) barging into "people's houses"....

That's how it started.
Here is a link to a pretty good synopsis of the "Sneak and Peek" for anybody interested.
http://www.lawsch.uga.edu/academics/profiles/dwilkes_more/37patriot.html
:silenced:
:blowkiss:

 

[Leila]

when was there any investigation of any of the other car trunks you mention here (or several others that come to mind) (except TL's which was luminoled for blood/body fluids but cadaver dogs never used there)? Did I miss this? I don't remember cadaver dogs being taken to any of these people's (or several other players') homes, yards, workplaces, vehicles, storage units, boats, etc or any forensics done in any of these places (I'm not talking about Tim Miller of course). Just curious if I missed this avenue of investigation, because I definitely never saw any investigation into any of these, (not even at the next-door-neighbors'), except for the luminol in the back of TL's jeep and on a couple pairs of his shoes, and LE's initial "walkthrough" of TL's place to apparently just check if Caylee was there. (I know about LE's requesting phone records from a few people, computer records from even fewer, taking statements from major players and some of their roommates, and the polygraphs. And the DNA samples from the A family/BB.)

LE never reports to the public everything they do to investigate a case. You won't find a detailed list of everywhere they took cadaver dogs, nor every house or apartment that was searched, nor everywhere they used luminol.

This is especially true when their investigation yielded negative results..........ie: you won't find a report stating that they took cadaver dogs through TL's apartment, and searched his apartment, using luminol, and the the results were negative for any evidence.

We only hear reports of evidence found. That's what's released as discovery. We don't have reports of evidence not found.

LE did a thorough job of investigating everyone - TL, JG, Kio, RM, AH, etc. If there had been ANY suspicions about any of them, they would have arrested. LE has only arrested one person, Casey.

 

[magic-cat]

Correct. At least one item of highly reliable inculpatory circumstantial evidence is needed in this case -- there's no direct evidence in this case -- that proves (forces a highly reliable conclusion) premeditation at the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt

Reliability coefficients are not additive. You cannot take an item of evidence that might point to premeditation at a reliability level of 40% and then take a second item of evidence that might point to premeditation at a reliability level of 35% and then take a third item of evidence that might point to premeditation at a reliability level of 45% and add the three reliability coefficients to conclude that the evidence proves with 120% certainty that a premeditated murder was committed.

HTH

I personally find an unreported child missing whom is later found with her face duct taped shut just about as direct as it gets. Her mother was the last one seen with her. Her mother's car reeked of human decomposition by ALL accounts. She was NEVER reported as missing BY her mother. And once found, it was discovered her face had THREE layers of duct tape attached into her hair and holding her jaw in place. ANY reasonable juror is not going to have one bit of problem convicting Casey of premeditated murder of her own child. After all, she also RESEARCHED it months before the actual event...It is not a matter of adding up percentages here. It is a matter of each piece of the puzzle when taken as a whole points 100% to Casey Anthony's guilt in the murder and disposal of Caylee Anthony. I have no problem seeing it whatsoever...and I don't think the jury, once seated, is going to have any problem seeing it eiter. After all, has Casey told one single word of TRUTH that would HELP this investigation? No. She has HINDERED this investigation from the get-go, and it was ALL about FINDING HER BABY...so that is evidence all on its own.:twocents:

 

[Imbackon]

LE never reports to the public everything they do to investigate a case. You won't find a detailed list of everywhere they took cadaver dogs, nor every house or apartment that was searched, nor everywhere they used luminol.

This is especially true when their investigation yielded negative results..........ie: you won't find a report stating that they took cadaver dogs through TL's apartment, and searched his apartment, using luminol, and the the results were negative for any evidence.

We only hear reports of evidence found. That's what's released as discovery. We don't have reports of evidence not found.

LE did a thorough job of investigating everyone - TL, JG, Kio, RM, AH, etc. If there had been ANY suspicions about any of them, they would have arrested. LE has only arrested one person, Casey.

excellent point Leila!
Also, notice we are not privy to any of the investigators notes.

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

After all, she also RESEARCHED it months before the actual event.

SNIP

I suspect you are referring to searches for 'neck breaking' and 'chloroform'. I'll wait to see if it's proven that Casey made those alleged searches. Moreover, if she did, the defense can still offer a reasonable explanation that jurors would be required to accept.

Did Caylee die from chloroform or a broken neck?

 

[magic-cat]

I suspect you are referring to searches for 'neck breaking' and 'chloroform'. I'll wait to see if it's proven that Casey made those alleged searches. Moreover, if she did, the defense can still offer a reasonable explanation that jurors would be required to accept.

Did Caylee die from chloroform or a broken neck?

Well, not a broken neck, but chloroform? Highly possible considering the high levels found inside of the trunk of Casey Anthony's automobile...Duct tape to hold the rag in place sounds perfectly plausible and right in line with the evidence...She was nothing but torn apart bones by the time she was discovered, so the toxicology on that is not possible...but is it a reasonable possibilty? Certainly it is. And the jurors might be required to consider the explanation, but they would not be required to accept it, especially if it is some half-cocked, far-fetched, smoke-and-mirrors type of thing that this defense is NOTORIOUS for offering up.

 

[magic-cat]

I suspect you are referring to searches for 'neck breaking' and 'chloroform'. I'll wait to see if it's proven that Casey made those alleged searches. Moreover, if she did, the defense can still offer a reasonable explanation that jurors would be required to accept.

Did Caylee die from chloroform or a broken neck?

After listening to Cindy on her road of lies in her deposition? I have no doubt whatsoever that they will or have already proven she was the initiator of those searches. It would not be that difficult to pin that down to her, and I am sure they already have in all likelihood.:blushing:

 

[magic-cat]

Also let's not forget the shovel in those searches...and the shovel that she borrowed.

 

[Imbackon]

OT, but tonite is a record breaker for me.
I think I have responded to then deleted at least 5 posts tonite!

It is hard to be a member in good standing sometimes.:boohoo::boohoo::boohoo:

 

[magic-cat]

OT, but tonite is a record breaker for me.
I think I have responded to then deleted at least 5 posts tonite!

It is hard to be a member in good standing sometimes.:boohoo::boohoo::boohoo:

:innocent: It is sometimes a balancing act, but perfectly achievable...:angel:

 

[Wudge]

Well, not a broken neck, but chloroform? Highly possible considering the high levels found inside of the trunk of Casey Anthony's automobile...Duct tape to hold the rag in place sounds perfectly plausible and right in line with the evidence...She was nothing but torn apart bones by the time she was discovered, so the toxicology on that is not possible...but is it a reasonable possibilty? Certainly it is. And the jurors might be required to consider the explanation, but they would not be required to accept it, especially if it is some half-cocked, far-fetched, smoke-and-mirrors type of thing that this defense is NOTORIOUS for offering up.

The evidence supporting Caylee dying from a rag soaked with chloroform that was duct taped in her mouth produces what certainty level that such is true?

(This is a good example of why the defense filed their motion to dismiss the charges. Because this represents guesswork. )

 

[magic-cat]

The duct tape involves NO guessing. It was not placed on the baby for any good reason and she was last in the custody of her mommy so her mommy placed the tape there. Whether it was to hold on a chloroform rag or to suffocate her or to stifle her cries matters not in the least to me...what does matter is that it was placed on her baby face at ALL. The ME has stated it was placed PRE decomp, so that leaves Casey Anthony, the last person known to have had physical custody of Caylee with a great big problem that hopefully will land her in jail for at least the rest of her life.