Casey & Family Psychological Profile #3

[OneLostGrl]

OneLostGirl- I am beginning to wonder if my mother had a daughter that I don't know about! Sounds like you are describing my mother. Boy how i wish you and I could have a long private pow wow. I call my mother a "force of nature". Hey, we survived sister. doogiesgirl

:blowkiss: And HOW! LOL.

My mom is doing great now... well, great for her that is. After her husband killed himself she had nowhere to go (burned bridges, ya know?!) and I moved her down to SC to live with me with the condition that she go off her "meds" (Oxycontin and vicoden), attend a partial hospitalization program (5 hours a day outpatient in a psych hospital) HEAVY in DBT and go on psych meds. It's been about 4 years now and the change in her is AMAZING! She no longer threatens suicide for every bad hair day, she has stayed off the pills, (though she is on methadone but it's better than the other crap she was on) and she rarely fakes illness anymore.. and sometimes when she has, she is willing to admit it which is HUGE (as I'm sure you know!). She is still pretty critical of me sometimes but in that "sweet way" that they do, ya know? So I get "sweet" right back when I look at her and call her her own mothers name! shuts her up every time! LOL

It makes me happy to hear of others surviving these kinds of parents.. and always, always hopeful for others like us who may still be stuck in the same situation.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Excellent post. I have said before that, even if the grandparents could have foreseen the tragedy that occurred, which I doubt anyone could have, there would have been little they could have done. Stealing, lying, refusing to work, etc, are not enough to remove a child from his or her parents. Some people here have mentioned that Caylee was brought to wild sex and drug parties. That may have been enough to catch the systems attention but it also would not have been enough for the parents to retain custody. casey would prbably be offered what's known as voluntary services, and that is it. By the way, I have yet to see any real evidence that Caylee was hauled to wild sex and drug parties. There may be one photo with her at a party but nowhere was there evidence that sex and drugs were occurring there.
To take a child from a home, you basically need one of the following: Bruises, a filthy, dangerous house, a child who is not going to school if school-aged, a child not getting enough to eat, or with a filthy or inappropriately clothed, evidenc e of sexual abuse, or evidence that the parent put the child in dsanger of imminent harm, such as by locking them in a car unattended. We may all have our suspicions of what casey did with Caylee, but there is no real evidence that she neglected or abused her until the end. And, as missmybaby so eloquently stated, casey would have had a ton of people attesting to what a wonderful, attentive and loving mother casey was to Caylee. I don't think there was much anyone could have done without a crystal ball to stop casey from killing her baby.

Oh, I agree 100%... they didn't cause this death unless they themselves murdered the child. but had they been proper parents when it mattered- before the real BAD stuff all began there is no way she'd have thought she could simply get away with it.. letting it carry on for a month. She was taught by not only WATCHING Cindy do the same (minus the stealing, that we know of) but because they allowed her to get away with lying, stealing, manipulating and guilting they handed her the ability to control their entire household and that she did! That they could have stopped and in turn ALL of their lives would be very different, including Caylee's.

I get that not everyone like Casey has parents like Cindy and George. I know that good, honest, loving parents can and do end up with personality disordered children, despite their very best efforts. I simply do not think that is this case in this situation!

 

[OneLostGrl]

I am the daughter of a sociopath. I haven't read any clear-cut evidence that it's passed generationally. None of my sibs are sociopaths; however, one does have a son who is.

That son was raised in the same home as my sociopath father, who was his father figure.

When examining the nature v. nurture aspects of personality disorders, it's pretty clear that some people are genetically predisposed. Being raised by someone conscienceless (in other words, taught the tricks of the trade) surely plays into it.

I don't know why my sibs and I aren't sociopaths. I do know that we each have our own issues, some bigger, some smaller. None of us escaped unscathed---but no, it's not clearly passed from one generation to the next.

You got lucky, all of us here at WS who lived with and were raised by these kinds of people got lucky (when compared to Casey) ya know?

I'm glad ya made it through! :blowkiss: - you can educate our society in ways a shrink with his text books and "statistics" never could!

 

[OneLostGrl]

It was hard to capture just the one frame of the video. This was the famous "Cindy wielding the bat on the driveway" episode. They were both quite distraught that protesters were bugging them that night. But George was clearly the aggressor, Cindy the appeaser/Joan of Arc martyr. And then seconds later, he was hosing down the crowd with that look on his face.

omg lol, I remember that one!!

 

[OneLostGrl]

Watching the video, my observations of Cindy were, especially when she has her hands to her mouth, she is thinking, "OMG, she really IS, what I have said & thought, & never wanted to believe" She keeps watching KC, listening to what she is saying, & the look on her face is as though she is seeing the Monster for the first time......horror:furious:......acceptance of the rumours & that Caylee is gone! She recovers briefly, & then, hands to the face, again she sees her, and it appears too much for her to handle. She has to look away, gets up & walks away.... the reality is too much to bear!

Just my observations, but I could actually feel what she was thinking!

no no, I wasn't talking about the video. I was refering to the pictures of George and Cindy in the front yard that Debs had posted.

ITA that it does look like that is when things seemed to have clicked into place for Cindy.. that day, in that video that was just released.

 

[OneLostGrl]

One has to look at the history to really get the picture about George.
My look at it: George became a cop. Great!!
Cindy wants him to own his own business like his father...great chance for unlimited money for family. yeah!
George quits Law and starts his oun business. Cindy says yeah!!!
George fails at his own business...money problems begin...they move to florida...George never recovers and Cindy resents him for not making it.
George becomes the butt of Cindy's jokes and she involves both kids in the fun. This was wrong and where this family sours. years later they all hate George but Cindy won't divorce him cause he would get money...For Cindy it is all about money instead of health. George can't say anything because he has no rights anymore and they have told him that over and over again. So Cindy out with the protestors is because it is her house and george has no say... Weird dynamics to say the least but I know them and more.

I agree. I'll also add that I believe Cindy also keeps him around for someone to abuse (be-little, step on, make fun of, keep money from etc) as now her kids are grown and seem to no longer allow it. Though I think Lee may have tried to stop it in regard to himself by moving out, Casey certainly seems to have found a no fail way to put a stop to her own abuse by murdering Caylee.

I also think a lot of Casey's reasoning behind choosing George as the one she wanted the alone-time meeting with was her way of telling her mother just that- "you do not control me anymore- I will decide who I speak with and it aint gonna be you!" She knew it would hurt her mother if she chose George because it was always them against him.

 

[OneLostGrl]

:clap:

Reminds me of a George Bernard Shaw Quote:

"If you must hold yourself up as an object lesson, hold yourself up as a

warning, and not as an example"

Absolutely! I always say that even if I'm good for only one thing in this life it is being a good "bad" example!

 

[shadow of my mind]

I’m coming late to this thread and have not read anymore than the last few posts so I may be saying something that has already been mentioned.

When parents discipline a child it causes the parent to have to also not being able to do what they want to do or like to do. So out of selfishness on the parents part they do not follow through with whatever punishment was chosen. This is one of the biggest mistakes that parents make.

Child is disciplined and the punishment is not allowed to ride bike for a week. Child whines and is up parents butt and parent does not get the ‘break’ of having their child out riding their bike so child is underfoot 24/7.
So to make it easier on parent, they allow child to ride bike after 3 days just so they can get that ‘break’ that are used to getting.
The child should be learning that way you say is what is it is no if and or butts.
Lesson the child learns…Annoy parent long enough and loud enough I will get out of my punishment and get what I want.

For someone who always has to appear perfect to the outside world you can not tell your neighbor that you have to turn down an invitation to go out with them on Saturday night because you have grounded your child and need to stay home. Instead of taking additional time explaining to child that because of their actions you also have to stay home; it’s called healthy shame; you cancel the child’s punishment so you can now go and you make a bid deal out how they should feel so lucky that so and so called to invite you out.

The child should be learning that their actions also impact others around them and that the world does not revolve because of them.
Lesson the child learns instead….What parent says is not as important as what parent looks like to others and child now has been shown a way to control you actions.

It starts with little things, the cookie before a meal even though 9 times out of 10 it is not allowed, just so you can get dinner ready without listening to the endless chatter of your toddler. It progresses to staying up hours past a decent bedtime because of the 100 times of “I want a glass of water”, “I can’t sleep”, while you are trying to sit for just one hour and watch something on TV, read a book or study. Before you know it your teenager is still not home at 3:00AM and you have no idea where they are, who their with or what they are doing.

The recipe for delinquency in teenagers starts when they are toddlers unless there is some type of major event or upheaval in the home that causes a boatload of stress and is not handled as its needs to be at a later stage. Now add any kind of mental disorder, either with one or both of the parents or the child, learned behavior from dysfunction upbringing of the adults now add any addictions, abuse or neglect to the mix and you have the makings of a monster.

The Anthony’s are people who will be sited in case studies for years to come. Hopefully some people will see the errors of their ways with how they handle their own children and will seek out help. Maybe that will be one positive thing that may come out of this tragic and sad death of Caylee

For me, I just had to make sure I did nothing that my adoptive parents did and that pretty well assured me my son would have a better parent. LOL
Well, it took a promise I made to myself one long dark cold night I would never ever do or be like them. With a lot of tears and hard work, plain old teeth gritting determination things turned out not to bad.

 

[RR0004]

I agree. I'll also add that I believe Cindy also keeps him around for someone to abuse (be-little, step on, make fun of, keep money from etc) as now her kids are grown and seem to no longer allow it. Though I think Lee may have tried to stop it in regard to himself by moving out, Casey certainly seems to have found a no fail way to put a stop to her own abuse by murdering Caylee.

I also think a lot of Casey's reasoning behind choosing George as the one she wanted the alone-time meeting with was her way of telling her mother just that- "you do not control me anymore- I will decide who I speak with and it aint gonna be you!" She knew it would hurt her mother if she chose George because it was always them against him.

...and I thought that Baez may have been behind that...like who is the weakest link? Who would be most likely to tell the truth? Who do you fear the most (meaning they don't buy your bs)? Of course, all this is disguised as a "meeting".
And she did throw it in her mother's face because her mother wasn't behaving like she wanted her to. I felt for Cindy, but IMO she's heard it all before. I think there was a vicious cycle of abuse going on in that home.

 

[RR0004]

Oh, Shadow, how right you are. I'm sorry that life hasn't always been kind to you. Your son is very lucky to have you.

 

[shadow of my mind]

...and I thought that Baez may have been behind that...like who is the weakest link? Who would be most likely to tell the truth? Who do you fear the most (meaning they don't buy your bs)? Of course, all this is disguised as a "meeting".
And she did throw it in her mother's face because her mother wasn't behaving like she wanted her to. I felt for Cindy, but IMO she's heard it all before. I think there was a vicious cycle of abuse going on in that home.

I thought that Casey choose George because she felt that he would be controlled by Cindy. No need to worry about daddy saying anything becasue mom well has his in a lock box. Of course Cindy took it as a personal attack since that is the way she has always does since she thinks it is also always about her..
I see the dynamic as Cindy is the the only one who could hand out punishment or say anything bad about others. George is the whipping post that Cindy shares with Casey and Lee sometimes, when she wants to or when it serves her purpose.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Most kids who are screw-ups at 13 probably don't have 1/4 the reasons you present. Being 13 is reason enough!! Having all the other situations you were living with just makes it that much harder to be 13! To be very honest, I can't imagine being 13 and going through everything else you describe and actually surviving it.

2 out of my 3 kids did all the dumbest stuff they ever went through at 13/14 yrs old. One got into the occasional fights at school, the other got arrested for shop lifting. Both turned out fine. The oldest, who was a pretty great 13 yo is the one who ended up having BPD.

It's a pot shoot. We never know, any of us when mental illness is going to strike. I think we're luckier now than 40 years ago, a family member with mental illness was never discussed, so if there was a family history of it, it was well buried. Each generation was on their own.

My dad's younger brother died from a self inflicted gun shot to the head. Story was my uncle was cleaning his gun when it went off. At 5, never being around guns, having no idea what this entailed, I knew something about the story wasn't right. When I was 30, I discovered my uncle had severe mental illness from the time he was a teenager. Knowing what I knew by then it sounded like bi polar disorder. But as a real diagnosis, we'll never know.

G0d how I wish i'd done my worst stuff at 13 LOL.

You are correct- I agree with you totally, we never do know who is "hard-wired" for this! But IMO that's why each of us, as parents must do everything in our power to make sure we teach our kids right from wrong and consistantly hold them accountable for the choices they make when they are young. It's our JOB to teach them about morals and values and responsibilities. If we give them all of that and it happens anyway, we know without a doubt that they were given the tools in which to know what is expected of them in the world.

I'm not normally a parent blamer- in any sense! I'm HUGE on the fact that regardless of who raised us or what mental illness one may have been dx'd with, unless you are "insane"(as in Andrea Yates and even still, I STILL think she should never be let out!) you choose your behaviors.. and I believe Casey indeed knowingly chose to kill her daughter. I have been posting here since like 2004 and this is the only case that I have followed that I felt the parents had a hand in creating the monser we see before us.

 

[shadow of my mind]

Oh, Shadow, how right you are. I'm sorry that life hasn't always been kind to you. Your son is very lucky to have you.

Yea, well some things just are what they are. It's what you make of them.

I don't know who said it or remember where I saw it but many many years ago it was tacked to a cork board in a truck stop.
Your are the sum total of all of different parts of your life. Make them add up good.

 

[shadow of my mind]

G0d how I wish i'd done my worst stuff at 13 LOL.

You are correct- I agree with you totally, we never do know who is "hard-wired" for this! But IMO that's why each of us, as parents must do everything in our power to make sure we teach our kids right from wrong and consistantly hold them accountable for the choices they make when they are young. It's our JOB to teach them about morals and values and responsibilities. If we give them all of that and it happens anyway, we know without a doubt that they were given the tools in which to know what is expected of them in the world.

I'm not normally a parent blamer- in any sense! I'm HUGE on the fact that regardless of who raised us or what mental illness one may have been dx'd with, unless you are "insane"(as in Andrea Yates and even still, I STILL think she should never be let out!) you choose your behaviors.. and I believe Casey indeed knowingly chose to kill her daughter. I have been posting here since like 2004 and this is the only case that I have followed that I felt the parents had a hand in creating the monser we see before us.

bolded by me
ITA. If you take your responsibilty as a parent and despite a good healthy proper upbring you start to see behavior in a child that does not seem to be right you have a much better chance at helping them if it is a mental illness or behavioral disorder get a grip on it with counseling or meds than doing what the A's did with Casey.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I’m coming late to this thread and have not read anymore than the last few posts so I may be saying something that has already been mentioned.

When parents discipline a child it causes the parent to have to also not being able to do what they want to do or like to do. So out of selfishness on the parents part they do not follow through with whatever punishment was chosen. This is one of the biggest mistakes that parents make.

Child is disciplined and the punishment is not allowed to ride bike for a week. Child whines and is up parents butt and parent does not get the ‘break’ of having their child out riding their bike so child is underfoot 24/7.
So to make it easier on parent, they allow child to ride bike after 3 days just so they can get that ‘break’ that are used to getting.
The child should be learning that way you say is what is it is no if and or butts.
Lesson the child learns…Annoy parent long enough and loud enough I will get out of my punishment and get what I want.

For someone who always has to appear perfect to the outside world you can not tell your neighbor that you have to turn down an invitation to go out with them on Saturday night because you have grounded your child and need to stay home. Instead of taking additional time explaining to child that because of their actions you also have to stay home; it’s called healthy shame; you cancel the child’s punishment so you can now go and you make a bid deal out how they should feel so lucky that so and so called to invite you out.

The child should be learning that their actions also impact others around them and that the world does not revolve because of them.
Lesson the child learns instead….What parent says is not as important as what parent looks like to others and child now has been shown a way to control you actions.

It starts with little things, the cookie before a meal even though 9 times out of 10 it is not allowed, just so you can get dinner ready without listening to the endless chatter of your toddler. It progresses to staying up hours past a decent bedtime because of the 100 times of “I want a glass of water”, “I can’t sleep”, while you are trying to sit for just one hour and watch something on TV, read a book or study. Before you know it your teenager is still not home at 3:00AM and you have no idea where they are, who their with or what they are doing.

The recipe for delinquency in teenagers starts when they are toddlers unless there is some type of major event or upheaval in the home that causes a boatload of stress and is not handled as its needs to be at a later stage. Now add any kind of mental disorder, either with one or both of the parents or the child, learned behavior from dysfunction upbringing of the adults now add any addictions, abuse or neglect to the mix and you have the makings of a monster.

The Anthony’s are people who will be sited in case studies for years to come. Hopefully some people will see the errors of their ways with how they handle their own children and will seek out help. Maybe that will be one positive thing that may come out of this tragic and sad death of Caylee

For me, I just had to make sure I did nothing that my adoptive parents did and that pretty well assured me my son would have a better parent. LOL
Well, it took a promise I made to myself one long dark cold night I would never ever do or be like them. With a lot of tears and hard work, plain old teeth gritting determination things turned out not to bad.

Excellent post!!! Excellent and so very true! :clap::clap:

I'm happy you made it out intact! :blowkiss:

 

[shadow of my mind]

Excellent post!!! Excellent and so very true! :clap::clap:

I'm happy you made it out intact! :blowkiss:

Thanks, I have read your posts and know you had many a long cold dark night too.

 

[gitana1]

Oh, I agree 100%... they didn't cause this death unless they themselves murdered the child. but had they been proper parents when it mattered- before the real BAD stuff all began there is no way she'd have thought she could simply get away with it.. letting it carry on for a month. She was taught by not only WATCHING Cindy do the same (minus the stealing, that we know of) but because they allowed her to get away with lying, stealing, manipulating and guilting they handed her the ability to control their entire household and that she did! That they could have stopped and in turn ALL of their lives would be very different, including Caylee's.

I get that not everyone like Casey has parents like Cindy and George. I know that good, honest, loving parents can and do end up with personality disordered children, despite their very best efforts. I simply do not think that is this case in this situation!

I agree with you. And, I do not think GA and CA were wonderful, loving parents. Over and over again I have said they appear very dysfunctional - CA with a personality disorder, likely BPD, and GA the typical, ineffectual and whipped husband who is often attracted to a woman like that. For sure, they created a monster. But to me, they are not to blame for what happened because they had and have no clue that they did anything wrong in the raising and enabling of their kid, they lacked the ability to raise her differently, they had no clarity as to the true nature of how deeply distrubed casey is and no one that knew casey could have predicted she would acutally kill her child, even her own family. Eevn if they knew how disturbed she is, there are tons of sociopaths, narcissists and spoiled enraged tryants in the world, but the majority do not kill.
Bottom line, how can we expect people as impaired as the Anthonys to know what to do? It's a vicious cycle: They created her because they are dysfunctional and they cannot realize what they have created and how to resolve it for the very same reason.
Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I posted this another thread but it more belongs here. After watching the latest video release, I believe Casey is deranged. She has been able to mask it, but the killing has unleashed her madness. She will only get worse. I have worked on a psych unit (as a nurse, but by no means an expert) in the past and this video, imo, shows labile psychosis. And the killing may have actually caused a psychotic break. (Also, in my experience, lots of insane people may appear perfectly normal on the surface.)

All along, while being appalled at this case, I could never work up the hate toward her that many on the net have expressed. Something just didn't sit right with me. I don't believe she killed in the heinous manner of viscious killer. I think she has been veering toward insanity for along time now. Maybe the pregnancy unleashed it. I think she is a sad, pathetic figure who has probably blocked out the killing for now.

Insanity defense may be the only way to go, if the defense can grasp this.

I disagree as does every psych professional, behavior analyst & body language expert that has commented on this case after observing the same videos and interviews of Casey's behaviors that we have. While in jail the first time Casey was given (I believe) 2 psych evaluations, though they were probably not searching for a "diagnosis", but more likely just trying to asess her safety while in jail and then again before being bonded out. But any shrink worthy of his degree and license to practice medicine, would recognize signs of psychosis while performing even a "quicky" psych eval.

Though I do believe that now that Casey has "blood on her hands" it's too late- if she were to get away with this and get out of jail I believe she would kill again.

 

[RR0004]

Yea, well some things just are what they are. It's what you make of them.

I don't know who said it or remember where I saw it but many many years ago it was tacked to a cork board in a truck stop.
Your are the sum total of all of different parts of your life. Make them add up good.

...and the people you meet along the way.
I've had considerable loss in my life, but find comfort in knowing that all my loved ones are still very much a part of my life because of how they touched me while here on earth.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I agree with you. And, I do not think GA and CA were wonderful, loving parents. Over and over again I have said they appear very dysfunctional - CA with a personality disorder, likely BPD, and GA the typical, ineffectual and whipped husband who is often attracted to a woman like that. For sure, they created a monster. But to me, they are not to blame for what happened because they had and have no clue that they did anything wrong in the raising and enabling of their kid, they lacked the ability to raise her differently, they had no clarity as to the true nature of how deeply distrubed casey is and no one that knew casey could have predicted she would acutally kill her child, even her own family. Eevn if they knew how disturbed she is, there are tons of sociopaths, narcissists and spoiled enraged tryants in the world, but the majority do not kill.
Bottom line, how can we expect people as impaired as the Anthonys to know what to do? It's a vicious cycle: They created her because they are dysfunctional and they cannot realize what they have created and how to resolve it for the very same reason.
Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do.

They are dysfunctional not mentally handicapped or void of understanding right from wrong or having common sense! Cindy certainly attended and graduated college just fine- held a job just fine.. she also has no police record from her supposed inability to control her actions. Their dysfunction only negativly effected their parenting abilities? Naw, sorry but such dysfunction does not work that way. Every relationship they formed (including employers, c0-workers, friends, lovers) would have been as "misguided" and troublesome if that were the case.

So I'm sorry, I disagree.. they very well DO have the ability to know what they were doing wrong... They knew enough to hide and lie to "outsiders" about not only their own behaviors but Casey's as well.