Casey to GA "We need to stick together on this." 8/14/08 Jail Visit

[logicalgirl]

I always thought she wanted to talk to George rather than Cindy simply because she wanted to punish Cindy for her all her media appearances while she was sitting in jail with her life taken away from her.

 

[treeseeker]

Are you suggesting that GA helped KC get rid of an "animal" and never looked in the bag back on June 24? KC texted Amy saying that her car smelled and that she thinks her Dad ran over some squirrels.

Are you suggesting that GA volunteered to bury a dead animal for KC (that she picked up off of the road and placed in her trunk) but he never looked inside the bag to see what dead animal he was going to bury but all along it was Caylee inside the bag? (ouch)

I know we're not permitted to advertise here but I have a bridge for sale - it's in Orlando. Seriously, and I'm trying to contain myself here, there is no way anybody would ever buy that explanation. I'm thinking your joking right? Honestly I'm not trying to be rude but I have had to read your post five times trying to ascertain if it is serious or not.

Did it go something like this? Ummm, Dad here are your f'g gas cans and would you mind burying this dead skunk for me too? GA replied, Sure Princess anything you want me to do, I'm happy to help. Hey, Love, bring Caylee around soon, kay?

I typed my response before I read ahead - glad to see that I'm not the only one scratching my head.
All of us are entitled to use our imaginations I guess.

Nope, not joking. I wouldn't bet money, but given this family's dynamics, I don't believe its off the chart.

I've seen GA discuss the June 24/gas can event twice, and there is something very disturbing to him about that event IMO. The f'ing gas can version very conveniently places him a few feet further from the trunk than he otherwise would have been, and was the second, second-hand story relayed by LA.

Then there is the very weird car chase around June 27? I have to check that. So perhaps GA did have an idea what was going on by that time.

 

[cecybeans]

As in everything in this crazy case there is a spectrum of possibilities for each because so much of what we actually know is based on statements from a family that is very comfortable with lying.

After the body was found, I wrote LP that, based on all of GA testimony and his physical tells when he lies (not to mention actually throwing up when he recounts the smell), I thought he had perhaps discovered the body in the wheel wheel in the plastic bags (based on her abandoning the car in hopes of someone stealing it), and that he threw the remains in the laundry bag and hastily tossed it on the side of Suburban on his way to work so that, for the moment, he could exculpate KC from the actual possession of the remains until they found KC and came up with a plan. I thought he was trying to facilitate the meeting with LE so she could confess to an accident. He and CA certainly went to great pains to plant that idea in their initial interviews. KC seems genuinely frustrated and angry when her mother asks her questions about the location of KC in the jailhouse visits. LP answered other emails I sent but not this one; I don't think he wanted to see GA as the doting mastermind behind the location of her remains (or the daisy chain that followed), especially when CA was dominating the stage as the angry and domineering one who was openly and publicly trying to exonerate her daughter.

If KC herself left the remains on the side of the road, it is just as possible that KC and her father had a conversation about the general location in the wee hours of the morning when LE brought her back from looking for Zanny and before they came back to take her to Universal. I think GA wanted Caylee's remains found quickly and knew that if someone found her while KC was in jail, it would lead to doubt as to who might be involved with her death, or it would be a chance for her to admit to a more benign story than murder. If that's the case, it would explain the machinations of trying to set up a meeting with LE and the rather awkward attempts at referencing her whereabouts (close to HOLT, home, whatever). It would also explain her decision to speak to GA and clumsy explanation about reconnecting with him. And it would also explain the fact that DC's searches were all about three pavers and looking for black plastic bags, as if a specific description of the location had been circulating.

I can see why the SA is not anxious to include the parents in any of this unless necessary for the moment as it can dilute the case against KC and introduce reasonable doubt in the form of accomplices. But some things about this scenario just don't make any sense at all unless the fact her parents actively aided her are factored.

Obviously, if a daisy chain had been put into place, RK was tipped off while she was still in jail because his first call is a little more than a week before she is bonded out. However, after she came home and was confronted by GA and was uncooperative, and he had that fight Tracy describes, I think he shut down on helping her until the presence of LP and TM and the possibility of more searches made it necessary to revisit that - this time perhaps with a different intent after discovery.

 

[LambChop]

I do not think GA had anything to do with what happened to Caylee, before or after her death. GA graduated college and was a police officer and left the department because of the wishes of his wife (so they state). No ex-police officer would dump a body down the street from the home where he lives. There are too many other places he could have put the body without it being found. Plus if you look at what has been listed here regarding the rate of decomposition, getting rid of the body fast would have been the only way to get rid of the smell in the trunk. It appears KC may have borrowed the shovel to bury Caylee in the backyard and when that was not possible, she dumped her in the most convenient place, on her way out to meet Tony at his apartment. Since it was a pet burial ground familiar to KC and not GA, I would imagine because GA appears to have been excluded on all family information and business in the past, it appears it was probably just KC. And why would anyone believe someone else would have put the child there. A coincidence. Too many of them in this case. No, I think KC did this little deed all by herself and then went on her merry way to live the beautify life. JMO

 

[Linz]

Completely agree, I don't see how this 'tricking GA' theory has legs. Even with the many levels of dysfunction in this family, I can't imagine anyone not checking the bag's contents. I know I would- not even out of suspicion necessarily, I'd just want to see for myself.

 

[logicalgirl]

Want to again say I am a long time lurker and a very new poster, and have watched every video and read and re-read every document I can find. It's been an interesting challenge over on the RH thread to engage with a defense attorney and actually have some of my beliefs rocked, if only for a few moments, while I struggle to fit specific scenarios like "had help from a person with law enforcement background" and heard the first theories about eight years ( sure - that's BS). But I have circled back to believing that Casey and only Casey is responsible for Caylee's death. I would entertain an accident if not for the 31 days, the duct tape, the trunk. And I have to say the " I don't know where she is" statement is true from Casey's weird lie/thought process. Casey didn't know where Caylee was 'cause she's dead and I don't know for sure that there's a heaven and if she's in heaven I don't know her exact address. Just IMO always. Now made the commitment to read all of the above again, and listen to the earlier videos (which make these people sound even crazier after all this time) - I figure I'll be completely off my rocker by Christmas!

 

[cecybeans]

Want to again say I am a long time lurker and a very new poster, and have watched every video and read and re-read every document I can find. It's been an interesting challenge over on the RH thread to engage with a defense attorney and actually have some of my beliefs rocked, if only for a few moments, while I struggle to fit specific scenarios like "had help from a person with law enforcement background" and heard the first theories about eight years ( sure - that's BS). But I have circled back to believing that Casey and only Casey is responsible for Caylee's death. I would entertain an accident if not for the 31 days, the duct tape, the trunk. And I have to say the " I don't know where she is" statement is true from Casey's weird lie/thought process. Casey didn't know where Caylee was 'cause she's dead and I don't know for sure that there's a heaven and if she's in heaven I don't know her exact address. Just IMO always. Now made the commitment to read all of the above again, and listen to the earlier videos (which make these people sound even crazier after all this time) - I figure I'll be completely off my rocker by Christmas!

Welcome and glad you've decided to come out of the shadows. I really don't think most of us feel for a moment that anyone but KC is responsible for Caylee's death. However, the placement of her remains, which might have come both before or after the car was towed, has been a subject of great interest and debate. Since none of us believe for a second that DC was looking for a paver triptych and black plastic bags from a psychic's tip, it stands to reason working backwardthat the information he received came from somewhere, either KC herself through JB or through information coming from her parents (either through KC herself again or knowledge they may have gotten after the car was towed). Since the RK story also seems as if it could either stand on its own or has enough inconsistencies to make the fact he may have been tipped off plausible, the same questions arise. We have to sift through cryptic communication between KC and her parents in those jailhouse visits; it is evident they don't want to talk openly about something, and the appearance of the batphones later confirms how little they want their conversations monitored. If it were simply a matter of KC being recalcitrant about telling the truth, then why all the need for total family secrecy and winks and nods and cryptic phrases and answers? The questions these people raise are so frustrating, and their behavior and communication is just so cloaked and suspicious it makes us almost have to examine every possible scenario to look for one that fits all the ragged edges.

ITA - it's very painful listening to those old tapes. Sometimes I watch with the sound off just to see the body language.

 

[SleuthyMama]

With all due respect to all my fellow posters, what was Casey going to say? "Oh yeah, sure Mom and Dad, I know EXACTLY where Caylee is. See, I put her in a couple of trashbags and a laundry bag and threw her back in that ol' spot where I used to bury my pets. 'Member that spot? Yeah, that's where she is."

I'm not being snarky because I do really enjoy reading everyone's theories and it always gives me something more to ponder but I don't think GA nor anyone else helped dump that baby's body.

I firmly believe Casey did that all by herself. With no forethought. Just like everything else. She did everything on the fly. And of course, when pressed, she was going to say she didn't know where Caylee was!

I think the "we need to stick together on this" was simply her putting the pressure on her parents that they needed to believe and support HER and not dare question a thing that came out of her mouth. It was like an "us against the world" kinda thing.

I do think though that the family has been very involved in numerous coverup/deflect tactics since then.

ETA: And George's reaction about the day with the gas cans, IMO, comes from the fact that in hindsight he knows that his own grandchild, his flesh and blood was in a garbage bag inside that trunk! And for multiple reasons and on numerous levels...that creates a tremendous amount of guilt within him.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

This new theory has me :waitasec: and now going back to the beginning and reconsidering some of the things we do know, although I don't agree that KC "tricked" GA by stating that the bags contained a dead cat or squirrels, but KC does come up with "creative" stories so thinking about how else she may have worded what was in the bag...

I seriously doubt that anyone could be fooled that the 50+ lb remains of a child would be similar in weight to a dead cat, squirrel, etc. However, a cleverly worded "story" about a "friends" dog who died, or dog that she hit in the road, could fit. I have lots of experience with 50+ dogs...(would decomp of a canine smell somewhat similar to that of a human? Don't know as I have never smelled either....

As far as GA looking in the bag before dumping (in a nearby empty lot as one would certainly not want to put that smelly thing in their own trash can, especially if trash pickup day is not imminent.), I know I certainly wouldn't make it a point to open the bag containing anything dead to "look at it first", but that is just me!

A few things that have popped back into my head...

Do you recall when KC wrote the letter to Sheriff Beary requesting a private meeting with her father?

Do you recall KC stating to CA in jail video that she was told she could choose ONE person to meet with privately and she was choosing GA since "they hadn't been that close lately"?

Do you recall when GA visited her in the jail while Jose was out of town playing with Geraldo and GA stated on jail video to KC that he could make a private visit with him happen (that day) since she was the "CEO" and that he had already begun the process of making it happen?

Always struck me as odd that GA was the one that KC would want to use this one private visit with. My recollection is that the family dynamics were that both KC and LA thought of their dad as a "joke" and both were supposively closer to CA. GA also seemed to be the only one who would call KC out on her lies, until CA intevened shutting GA down.

I think this should at least be looked at. It could explain a lot.

By the way, from the first time KC jail videos hit the media, the only two statements that I felt were truth related (and because she repeated them so consistently and adamantly) were "I feel she is close to home" and "I do not know where Caylee is".

From the first time I heard it, I believed that KC really did not know where Caylee's body was at the time, although she did know that she was not living...just didn't know the EXACT spot that "someone" (known to her) disposed of the body!

Thanks for the recap of how KC and GA seem to be working together.

I also remember an anamant statement that KC made, "I haven't seem my daughter for 31 days." Whenever I did the countback, that put the day she adamantly claimed she last saw Caylee to June 14 (unless you count the day she said it too - then June 15 (but who counts the day you're on when you're counting back?).

I know KC goes along with the story that she left the house with Caylee on June 16 while GA was watching his favorite cooking show, but her 31 days statement has me :waitasec: since it's one of the few that seemed real.

Also GA once said, I was hardly ever alone with the little girl (not in quotes because I'm not sure if it's an exact statement). He stated this into a reporter's mic while walking outside around the same time we heard about the pizzas being the cause of the smell from CA and right around the same time CA said "I don't want to loose my husband". All of these blips cause me to :waitasec: while pondering what may have happened.

Also it has crossed my mind that KC and GA could be covering for CA.

I'd be looking closer at an inside situation before I went off blaming RK. I sense some of the people who are involved in the case were pulled in by someone and are not being forthcoming as to how and why they knew what they know, etc. Maybe I don't believe in miracles, I don't know.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Just wanted to add that this theory could also help explain who/how CA was "tipped off" to where remains were located in November to relay to DC. When was GA suicide attempt and subsequent "counselling"? Could he have had a "come to Jesus" moment (after returning home from hospitalization) and finally fessed up to CA that he suspects that he was duped into dumping Caylee's remains, and then CA went into action to get those remains back?! (Also may be why DC had the "details" of where to look specifically, from GA recollections?)

In fact, regarding GA hospitalization, am I recalling correctly that the doctors planned to transfer GA to an inpatient program but CA nixed that idea and brought him home (much to the dismay of those of us here that were sympathetic to GA and worried about CA control over him)? Am I recalling this correctly?

Perhaps GA testimony about the "gas can day" story was accurate without including the part about how he smelled something when he was approaching the car, thus KC story about a dead dog, etc and not knowing where to dispose of them?

Is there an actual story about a dead dog? I haven't heard that one. Link please.

 

[LambChop]

Completely agree, I don't see how this 'tricking GA' theory has legs. Even with the many levels of dysfunction in this family, I can't imagine anyone not checking the bag's contents. I know I would- not even out of suspicion necessarily, I'd just want to see for myself.

And don't think that if GA knew what the smell in the trunk was he would certainly know what the smell in a black garbage bag was and I doubt he would have thrown away the laundry bag without replacing it so CA would not have realized it was missing. KC, from her check cashing, credit card stealing, does not worry about such trival details. This has KC all over it from the beginning. JMO

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Could be the case with NeJame, but I would hope he would have told someone where Caylee was. IIRC, immunity for the A's was on the table back then, so why wouldn't he have asked for that immunity and told LE where her body was? I would think MN would be consciencious enough to do this-but who knows, maybe I am in the wrong time frame with that.

I think GA was invited to the GJ because he (basically) said that a dead body was in KC's car, and he alluded to things that made LE believe (and I believed) that he thought it could have been at KC's hands.

This is my only hang-up-and maybe I just need a tiny bit more convincing-GA was so quick to say dead human and link it to KC, that if he did assist in any way, it would make more sense to me if it was unbeknownst to him.

Or he could be a/the sociopath. Everyone says KC is one - why could one of her parents not be one too?
(I really hate talking about people this way but it has to be discussed imo. I'm suggesting the possibility and not claiming I know it as fact.)

 

[logicalgirl]

Welcome and glad you've decided to come out of the shadows. I really don't think most of us feel for a moment that anyone but KC is responsible for Caylee's death. However, the placement of her remains, which might have come both before or after the car was towed, has been a subject of great interest and debate. Since none of us believe for a second that DC was looking for a paver triptych and black plastic bags from a psychic's tip, it stands to reason working backwardthat the information he received came from somewhere, either KC herself through JB or through information coming from her parents (either through KC herself again or knowledge they may have gotten after the car was towed). Since the RK story also seems as if it could either stand on its own or has enough inconsistencies to make the fact he may have been tipped off plausible, the same questions arise. We have to sift through cryptic communication between KC and her parents in those jailhouse visits; it is evident they don't want to talk openly about something, and the appearance of the batphones later confirms how little they want their conversations monitored. If it were simply a matter of KC being recalcitrant about telling the truth, then why all the need for total family secrecy and winks and nods and cryptic phrases and answers? The questions these people raise are so frustrating, and their behavior and communication is just so cloaked and suspicious it makes us almost have to examine every possible scenario to look for one that fits all the ragged edges.

ITA - it's very painful listening to those old tapes. Sometimes I watch with the sound off just to see the body language.

Thank you for your comments and yes, yes, and yes to yours - although I wonder if all the family secrecy was because they hadn't totally accepted Casey's full responsibility in Caylee's disappearance (at that point) and whenever has this family come straight out with anything. I'm more than willing to read and absorb all the many intelligent options and opinions here on WS and particularly admire the many theories come up with. Those videos made me crazy back then - I'm going to follow your suggestion with the sound off for some of them, that's for sure. I have more common sense than intelligence I suspect. Will keep an open mind but right now really leaning towards "if it doesn't fit you can't acquit!"

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Typically children of police officers, or ex-police officers as in this case, think the parent will be able to make that connection with LE and somehow "make it right". In-other-words, KC may have felt her Dad could help her make this whole thing disappear. I think that "cop" in GA was trying to get information from his daughter and probably had assurances from LE that they would go easy on her if she "spilled the beans". JMO

Keeping things in perspective, GA had not been a Cop during KC's life. They moved to FL when she was three and he spent a few years in the car business in OH prior to moving to FL. So, unless he and CA reminisced often about back in the day when your dad was on the police force, GA's history was not a part of KC's life. So for her to think he had any connections/power is a bit farfetched imo.

I do believe that GA's experience having been LE would lend itself to creating a script, that and watching too many T.V. shows.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I always thought she wanted to talk to George rather than Cindy simply because she wanted to punish Cindy for her all her media appearances while she was sitting in jail with her life taken away from her.

Or, maybe KC wanted to fill GA in about CA's involvement - who knows? Definitely some kind of a meeting about something involving the details from KC's perspective I would think.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Nope, not joking. I wouldn't bet money, but given this family's dynamics, I don't believe its off the chart.

I've seen GA discuss the June 24/gas can event twice, and there is something very disturbing to him about that event IMO. The f'ing gas can version very conveniently places him a few feet further from the trunk than he otherwise would have been, and was the second, second-hand story relayed by LA.

Then there is the very weird car chase around June 27? I have to check that. So perhaps GA did have an idea what was going on by that time.

CA denied the car chase - said it happened back in May. The pings don't support the car chase on June 27 iirc. BJB did a lot of looking into that on the Ping thread. I'm pretty sure there is a thread about GA's car chase claim.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73424"]Ping Map for June 29, 2008 - Discuss this day only. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

If the above link works, there is a great discussion about the "chase". Also there is another thread on the topic which Bond refers to in one of his posts in the above thread.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I do not think GA had anything to do with what happened to Caylee, before or after her death. GA graduated college and was a police officer and left the department because of the wishes of his wife (so they state). No ex-police officer would dump a body down the street from the home where he lives. There are too many other places he could have put the body without it being found. Plus if you look at what has been listed here regarding the rate of decomposition, getting rid of the body fast would have been the only way to get rid of the smell in the trunk. It appears KC may have borrowed the shovel to bury Caylee in the backyard and when that was not possible, she dumped her in the most convenient place, on her way out to meet Tony at his apartment. Since it was a pet burial ground familiar to KC and not GA, I would imagine because GA appears to have been excluded on all family information and business in the past, it appears it was probably just KC. And why would anyone believe someone else would have put the child there. A coincidence. Too many of them in this case. No, I think KC did this little deed all by herself and then went on her merry way to live the beautify life. JMO

Why do GA and CA defend her so? Why do you think they do?

 

[Linz]

And don't think that if GA knew what the smell in the trunk was he would certainly know what the smell in a black garbage bag was and I doubt he would have thrown away the laundry bag without replacing it so CA would not have realized it was missing. KC, from her check cashing, credit card stealing, does not worry about such trival details. This has KC all over it from the beginning. JMO

Agreed. I decided to pass over that aspect because there seem to have been some questions about GA's overall competence... But yeah, personally, from all I've heard I don't see how he could've failed to recognize that smell...

 

[Mominva]

Why do GA and CA defend her so? Why do you think they do?

I know you didn't ask me but I personally think they defend her because of a guilty conscience. I am not sure of what but i think it has to do with something that occured on the 15th. MOO

 

[SleuthyMama]

I'm not Lambchop but I think they defend her because to not do so is to implicate themselves in that they FAILED their own granddaughter.

I think they are reacting the way they have ALWAYS reacted to Casey's antics. They kept their heads in the sand until it was too late and then when they did have to "accept it" they spun their own version of the truth and presented that to the world. So in this case, they know what happened but to save face they have to stand behind her and pretend like she's the victim too and that Caylee is out there somewhere in PR while some other poor child's ashes are on their mantlepiece.

It's just that this is by far the worst and most serious transgression of Casey's life. But they do what they have always done. Because to do any different makes them have to face their own part in the tragedy and makes them culpable too.