Casey to GA "We need to stick together on this." 8/14/08 Jail Visit

[Never4GetCaylee]

Still, I did wonder how KC's parents could refrain from continuing to ask questions. I wouldn't have been able to stop myself. Regardless if she threatened to storm out and leave the interview or whatever. Let her storm out. She's not going anywhere. If it were me, I would pin her down relentlessly with questions, I would not be able to stop, thinking of the other little family member out there missing. I would have gone in to see her and said, the urgent thing right now is that Caylee is missing and in danger. We are here to hear anything you can tell us about what has gone on and where Caylee is. Talk. We will sit here all hour, talk when you feel the urge to talk, but only about Caylee, we aren't here to discuss anything else. But that's just me. But you never know, maybe they know something about KC's situation that we don't know and they knew that if she talked Caylee would be harmed. I don't know.

I agree, I wouldn't be able to stop asking questions either, but the A's are in a unique situation where KC, again, has all the power, if she walks out, true she isn't going anywhere, but she can refuse to see them. It seems like they thought this was their "shot." Jose was out of town and KC had agreed to see them, even though she herself said "I wasn't even supposed to take this visit." Cindy did try to implore upon KC and make her focus on Caylee, saying she knew were Casey was, but she didn't know where Caylee is, if she is being fed, if she is being hugged. I think they wanted to keep her talking period...about anything, hoping something useful would slip out.

 

[Pondering Mind]

Thank you.
Although I'm not completely sure about the threat of harm to Caylee being a lie. I think there is the remote possibility, however small, that that could actually be true or that it could include a shred of truth. I think it's possible that the family may have some idea who KC was associated with who could possibly make such a threat. These things could actually happen in some groups. Retribution crimes are actually committed against a person's relatives, even children in some groups. At times I got the impression that due to whatever disorder or condition (or possible drug usage) KC might have been experiencing, she couldn't remember for sure who had Caylee, she could have lost her somewhere or forgotten her somewhere and couldn't remember where, or she thought someone she knew had her, and at first she didn't think they would hurt Caylee. Or, that Caylee was being held to silence KC about criminal activity she knew about, or until a drug debt was paid, or for some other reason, but that Caylee could be harmed if she told. I'm still not completely sure. In some subcultures you don't tell. Period.

I completely but respectfully disagree. I would like to ask though..In any of your scenarios, how could that be squared with KC waltzing in Blockbuster without a care in the world (as we saw on video) within hours of 'misplacing Caylee'

 

[Ocean Lover]

This was played again tonight and this comment stuck out in a strange way.

Casey to GA - "We need to stick together on this" and GA responded "We are going to stick together"

This really is somewhat strange along with the fact that when GA first was walking up to the car at the tow-yard. The stranger (worker) told him that it smelled like death or something like that and GA kind of annoyed that statement. If I was walking up to my daughter's car and someone said it smelled like death .... I would have freaked. It was almost like he was already aware of the smell.

I do not think that the GP's were aware of the original murder but do think they get involved a little too deep later with a cover-up story. Maybe just a little and got pulled in too deep to reveal the truth.

Thoughts?

I don't think the A's had anything to do with Caylee's death but I do think they all helped her cover up. I think they knew something happned when they got the car and hence the cover up began. I think they covered due to someone feeling guilty for the argument with KC and her leaving and murdering Caylee. Then they had to continue to throw stuff to the media to try to create reasonable doubt. Then they hired an attorney on the way home or just before coming home from Larry K. the day the body was found. They new the show was about to end.

 

[seagull65]

for some reason I remember again how KC said in that one interview (with the social workers I believe, regarding the neglect charge), that she had been "retracing her steps" trying to find out where Caylee could be. Also, one of KC's friends said in an interview or maybe it was here on websleuths, and I'm sorry I can't remember who it was, but they said at first they thought maybe KC had just accidentally left Caylee at Target or something like that. These things sound like it was possible that KC could actually have misplaced or lost Caylee. Why she wouldn't own up to it by now is a mystery of course, unless she is still confused and doesn't truly grasp what's going on.

 

[Zingo]

I agree, I wouldn't be able to stop asking questions either, but the A's are in a unique situation where KC, again, has all the power, if she walks out, true she isn't going anywhere, but she can refuse to see them. It seems like they thought this was their "shot." Jose was out of town and KC had agreed to see them, even though she herself said "I wasn't even supposed to take this visit." Cindy did try to implore upon KC and make her focus on Caylee, saying she knew were Casey was, but she didn't know where Caylee is, if she is being fed, if she is being hugged. I think they wanted to keep her talking period...about anything, hoping something useful would slip out.

Absolutely. Great points.

 

[Oakley]

Point taken. But to believe they covered up either a) knowledge of the death; or b) knowledge of the location of the body ... is a logical leap, in the following respects:

When CA placed the panicked 911 call, she did not already know her granddaughter was dead. NO ONE could be that convincing of an actress. She would be better than Meryl Streep. Give her a lifetime academy award.

And CA, who demanded to see her granddaughter, and tracked down KC by sleuthing out her friends, would NEVER have let that granddaughter lie in a trash bag in the woods for five months to save KC. I'd bet my HOUSE on that.

CA is in denial ... and that is one of the stages of GRIEF. She doesn't want any of this to be real, so she speaks out of both sides of her mouth because she does NOT have a firm grip on reality. Reality, for her, is just too painful. She has no concept of truth right now. She's swimming in KC's lies, and cannot confront the reality that her daughter is very likely a cold-blooded killer.

I don't know, Zingo. I certainly don't believe for a minute that Casey had a drug addiction (no withdrawals once incarcerated) and there is absolutely no evidence or indication that she is mentally ill either. As far as Cindy being in denial, she must've also been in denial when she took Casey to Rick's wedding with a 7 month pregnant tummy and denied she was pregnant. So do you think she's always been in denial? Will she ever come out of it? I am not trying to be snarky - just trying to understand.

ETA: Quotes are mixed up. I am actually quoting Zingo, not myself.

 

[Thinaire]

I completely but respectfully disagree. I would like to ask though..In any of your scenarios, how could that be squared with KC waltzing in Blockbuster without a care in the world (as we saw on video) within hours of 'misplacing Caylee'

Great point Pondering ...for a possibly drug addled, fearful, disordered person...Casey was pretty high functioning

 

[Ocean Lover]

for some reason I remember again how KC said in that one interview (with the social workers I believe, regarding the neglect charge), that she had been "retracing her steps" trying to find out where Caylee could be. Also, one of KC's friends said in an interview or maybe it was here on websleuths, and I'm sorry I can't remember who it was, but they said at first they thought maybe KC had just accidentally left Caylee at Target or something like that. These things sound like it was possible that KC could actually have misplaced or lost Caylee. Why she wouldn't own up to it by now is a mystery of course, unless she is still confused and doesn't truly grasp what's going on.

I don't remember seeing Caylee on the video with KC at Target so I doubt she accidently left her there. If retracing her steps to find her daughter were dancing at Fusion, cooking and cleaning for her boyfriend, stealing from friends and buying stuff for herself and food for her boyfriend then I'm at a loss of words. According to the IM's between KC and some male friends in July she is still claiming that Caylee was at the sitter. What I'm saying is I don't buy that KC lost Caylee or is confused or doesn't grasp what is going on. That would be a stretch to say the least! The reason she is not owing up to it is because of the duct tape on the mouth. Not an accident I don't think.

 

[bunnyphoenix1]

So are we thinking that KC killed Caylee in the home late on the 15th into the morning of the 16th and that GA and CA found out? And their first instinct was to cover up for KC out of habit at first. So they quickly decided that CA would have to go to work on the 16th, GA too only later. That the morning of the 16th GA told KC where to put her until they could think it thru and come up with a plan? If they did know about it on the 15/16 I think that is a master plan to have KC leave, pretending to take Caylee with her for 31 days before they reported it. And the dumping of the car was planned and CA knew at some point she'd have to make an emotional call to 911 at some point? Are we thinking along these lines? If not what. Just throwing ideas around here. Not saying I am believing this but think it is worth discussing. MOO

I still have an open mind, but I have certainly considered your theory a very real possiblity for some time now.

 

[seagull65]

I agree, I wouldn't be able to stop asking questions either, but the A's are in a unique situation where KC, again, has all the power, if she walks out, true she isn't going anywhere, but she can refuse to see them. It seems like they thought this was their "shot." Jose was out of town and KC had agreed to see them, even though she herself said "I wasn't even supposed to take this visit." Cindy did try to implore upon KC and make her focus on Caylee, saying she knew were Casey was, but she didn't know where Caylee is, if she is being fed, if she is being hugged. I think they wanted to keep her talking period...about anything, hoping something useful would slip out.

I think you're right. And when KC keeps nattering on about how she's doing, as if they're visiting her at summer camp, and Cindy realizes it's hopeless, and has to continue to listen to the empty chatter, she just sits there and literally cries, you can see the terror for Caylee on her face. She finally puts her head down crying, and KC honestly doesn't get it, she doesn't notice. KC isn't enjoying her mom crying, she's oblivious to it. But KC does act like she has some strange rage toward her mother, she gets sidetracked by one little word and goes off into a rant about it, like the thing about let me speak, no one will let me speak. It wasn't true, they wanted her to speak. No one had stopped her from speaking. But she went off into a genuine panic about not being allowed to speak (and of course, she doesn't even want to speak.) All that shouting about let me speak, and then nothing to say at all.... why does she insist on being allowed to speak? I'm going to have to think about it.

 

[Trapshooter]

Seagull,
Poor Cindy and George DID let KC speak and when she spoke, it was all "I", "me", etc. KC wanted to be considered a victim.

I think KC was very aware that her mother was crying. IIRC, didn't KC ask GA why "she" (CA) was crying....somewhere I recall that in the video. I also think KC was enjoying seeing her mother in that condition because it gave all the "power" back to KC.

 

[nancy botwin]

I think you're right. And when KC keeps nattering on about how she's doing, as if they're visiting her at summer camp, and Cindy realizes it's hopeless, and has to continue to listen to the empty chatter, she just sits there and literally cries, you can see the terror for Caylee on her face. She finally puts her head down crying, and KC honestly doesn't get it, she doesn't notice. KC isn't enjoying her mom crying, she's oblivious to it. But KC does act like she has some strange rage toward her mother, she gets sidetracked by one little word and goes off into a rant about it, like the thing about let me speak, no one will let me speak. It wasn't true, they wanted her to speak. No one had stopped her from speaking. But she went off into a genuine panic about not being allowed to speak (and of course, she doesn't even want to speak.) All that shouting about let me speak, and then nothing to say at all.... why does she insist on being allowed to speak? I'm going to have to think about it.

The longer Casey talks about "not being allowed to speak," the less time Cindy and George have to ask her questions??

 

[Hope for the Best]

I think they may have only called 911 because they figured someone else would if they didn't. The people at Cindy's work had told her she should go home and call the police, and Cindy knew at least one person at the tow yard smelt "the smell". She told her co-workers that she didn't want to call the police as she wanted to give Casey an opportunity to explain, but they insisted she go home and call them. But, instead, it seems she called Amy and then did a lot of things befoe calling the police. So, I'm not convinced she called because she wanted to, but rather because she knew she wasn't going to get away with hiding it anymore and had no choice.

But, if CA knew from the start what happened to Caylee, why would she have told the people at work about the smell, or for that matter, even let the car be picked up at Amscot. They could've dumped that car in a lake, reported it stolen and never been heard from again. Even if she had figured it all out after talking to her co-workers, she still could have come up with some story about a dead dog or something to explain the smell and said that she finally heard from Casey and that she and Caylee had reunited with Caylee's father and now live in Tennessee or some other BS story.

 

[Oakley]

Seagull,
Poor Cindy and George DID let KC speak and when she spoke, it was all "I", "me", etc. KC wanted to be considered a victim.

I think KC was very aware that her mother was crying. IIRC, didn't KC ask GA why "she" (CA) was crying....somewhere I recall that in the video. I also think KC was enjoying seeing her mother in that condition because it gave all the "power" back to KC.

(Bold mine.) She was absolutely gleefull at the sight of her mom crying. Some real strange dynamic there.

 

[Hope for the Best]

I agree, Zingo, I know a lot of us here do. You can tell they had already been beating their heads against the wall for some time with her. It is so terrible for families of people with an addiction, or mental illness, or other behavioral disorder. The family can't escape from this person, they have to deal with this person all the time, they worry themselves sick for them, yet it's impossible dealing with them and being around them. They learn to just avoid the conflict because it goes nowhere to confront the person. Neighbors reported that KC yelled and screamed a lot at the house and would sometimes leave the house screaming. Of course we don't know her reasons, she may have reasons we don't know about, but it's possible her parents had had to put up with one of these situations like beating their heads against the wall for some time. A lot of times there's nothing families can do, it's a terrible situation.

<respectfully snipped>

but according to Cindy, KC had/has none of the issues you described above. She was 'mother of the year' that did nothing worse but tell the occasional mistruth. So it would seem that according to the A's, this didn't apply...unless they are telling mistruths too. jmo

Well, now that there's trouble, Cindy claims that, but before this all happened, she did tell one of Casey's friends (I think it was Jeff?) that Casey was a sociopath, and she was seeing a therapist to help her deal with Casey.

 

[seagull65]

I don't remember seeing Caylee on the video with KC at Target so I doubt she accidently left her there. If retracing her steps to find her daughter were dancing at Fusion, cooking and cleaning for her boyfriend, stealing from friends and buying stuff for herself and food for her boyfriend then I'm at a loss of words. According to the IM's between KC and some male friends in July she is still claiming that Caylee was at the sitter. What I'm saying is I don't buy that KC lost Caylee or is confused or doesn't grasp what is going on. That would be a stretch to say the least! The reason she is not owing up to it is because of the duct tape on the mouth. Not an accident I don't think.

Well, that is possible in mental illness. Some people do have memory disorders, identity disorders, dissociative disorders, abused spouse or girlfriend disorders, some people use mushrooms and the next thing they know they have 4 days they can't remember even though they went to school and did all kinds of things during those days. Some people have seizure disorders where they go around in a daze during a seizure, and no one realizes they're having a seizure but wonder why they say the strange things they do or put things in weird places. These things definitely exist. People can look totally normal but suffer from any of these.

Again, the duct tape on the mouth is one of the things that seems more like a different perpetrator to me than KCA. I think if KCA really did commit premeditated murder of Caylee, she would never have left the duct tape on the mouth when she dumped the body. She would have removed the tape to keep the "accident' option open, etc. My opinion only.

 

[Pondering Mind]

I don't think the A's had anything to do with Caylee's death but I do think they all helped her cover up. I think they knew something happned when they got the car and hence the cover up began. I think they covered due to someone feeling guilty for the argument with KC and her leaving and murdering Caylee. Then they had to continue to throw stuff to the media to try to create reasonable doubt. Then they hired an attorney on the way home or just before coming home from Larry K. the day the body was found. They new the show was about to end.

I agree. And just as KC's lies snowballed, so did the A's cover-up. Early on, the more they tried to offer up silly excuses for Casey, it became obvious (to me anyway) that they 'knew' that something had happened to Caylee and MUST have known that KC was very likely responsible. IMO, IF they REALLY thought that Caylee was alive and kidnapped, they would be pleading for her return, NOT spouting out that it was pizza in the trunk that smelled like a dead body AFTER George just got through telling detectives what the smell was! SO many lies and contradictions....ALL to save KC. What about Caylee? I CAN NOT BELIEVE that this precious child has not 'been laid to rest' yet!!! (Not the A's fault and best left for the Rant Thread )

 

[Zingo]

I don't know, Zingo. I certainly don't believe for a minute that Casey had a drug addiction (no withdrawals once incarcerated) and there is absolutely no evidence or indication that she is mentally ill either. As far as Cindy being in denial, she must've also been in denial when she took Casey to Rick's wedding with a 7 month pregnant tummy and denied she was pregnant. So do you think she's always been in denial? Will she ever come out of it? I am not trying to be snarky - just trying to understand.

ETA: Quotes are mixed up. I am actually quoting Zingo, not myself.

Right, and I'm not saying CA is not screwed up! How on earth did KC get so messed up if not partially because of her mother??? I'm just basing my opinion on logic and observation. KC is a manipulator. How she became that way, I don't know. Whether it's drugs, sex addiction, alcohol, shopping addiction, or whatever, KC is completely irresponsible and out of control (dependent) -- and she uses other people to get what she wants. CA, in contrast, is super responsible (goes to work, visits her parents regularly, keeps things together) but has a tendency to be controlling, and has boundary issues with her children. Both CA and KC are messed up. The difference is KC is more deliberately deceptive. And CA is reacting to KC. It's like KC is in charge. I've seen relationships like this. And from the outside, it's completely nuts. There are so many contradictions. It's mental gymastics to make sense of them. But on the inside, the people are locked in destructive patterns and they are dependent on each other. Hence, they will tolerate just about anything to continue having the person in their life, even if it's ruining their life. I really think CA can't let go of KC, or accept the truth.

CA has no independent reality outside of KC ...

She would really benefit from something like Al-Anon. Even though it's for families of alcoholics, it teaches us to let go of destructive patterns and toxic people. We can keep loving the person, but we have to detach from them. I had to do this with a relative, and Al-Anon helped me.

 

[seagull65]

Well, now that there's trouble, Cindy claims that, but before this all happened, she did tell one of Casey's friends (I think it was Jeff?) that Casey was a sociopath, and she was seeing a therapist to help her deal with Casey.

yes, she had discussed with people about her being a sociopath (lying/theft), but since there had never been any history of her mistreating Caylee or having any hostility toward Caylee, she didn't believe that KC could ever harm Caylee. All of the friends said the same thing in the interviews with LE (and here on this site).

 

[Oakley]

Right, and I'm not saying CA is not screwed up! How on earth did KC get so messed up if not partially because of her mother??? I'm just basing my opinion on logic and observation. KC is a manipulator. How she became that way, I don't know. Whether it's drugs, sex addiction, alcohol, shopping addiction, or whatever, KC is completely irresponsible and out of control (dependent) -- and she uses other people to get what she wants. CA, in contrast, is super responsible (goes to work, visits her parents regularly, keeps things together) but has a tendency to be controlling, and has boundary issues with her children. Both CA and KC are messed up. The difference is KC is more deliberately deceptive. And CA is reacting to KC. It's like KC is in charge. I've seen relationships like this. And from the outside, it's completely nuts. There are so many contradictions. It's mental gymastics to make sense of them. But on the inside, the people are locked in destructive patterns and they are dependent on each other. Hence, they will tolerate just about anything to continue having the person in their life, even if it's ruining their life. I really think CA can't let go of KC, or accept the truth.

CA has no independent reality outside of KC ...

She would really benefit from something like Al-Anon. Even though it's for families of alcoholics, it teaches us to let go of destructive patterns and toxic people. We can keep loving the person, but we have to detach from them. I had to do this with a relative, and Al-Anon helped me.

I agree with this, well stated, Zingo.