Casey to GA "We need to stick together on this." 8/14/08 Jail Visit

[JBean]

okay I think I got them all fixed. Please read the broken quote thread and if you see one, don't carry it please!!

 

[PaulaF513]

<respectfully snipped>
but according to Cindy, KC had/has none of the issues you described above. She was 'mother of the year' that did nothing worse but tell the occasional mistruth. So it would seem that according to the A's, this didn't apply...unless they are telling mistruths too. jmo

I don't know....every one of KC's friends said that she was an attentive mother to Caylee. No one said anything negative about her treatment of Caylee, except for the critism of her taking Caylee along to a party where drinking was going on. And that didn't sound like the norm either.

I just don't think her parents had the faintest idea that she would be capable of something like this. She was a leech, a liar and a petty thief, but there have been no reports of her being violent or abusive to Caylee.

 

[PaulaF513]

Absolutely, N4GetC, I totally agree. Faced with two prospects, a) believing Caylee is dead and KC killed her, or b) Nanny kidnapped Caylee and she might still be alive ... which would any grandparent believe?

**Warning, graphic***don't read if you'll be offended***

Oh, and your story about your cousin rings true to me. We sometimes have a natural instinct to clean up when we're in shock... It's gruesome to recall this image, but I remember watching the video of JFK's assasination awhile back. And I couldn't get over how right after the bullets tore through Pres. Kennedy, Jackie Kennedy was climbing onto the trunk of the car, picking up pieces of her husband's "grey matter" -- in other words, she was retrieving parts of his brain. She went into immediate "clean up" mode -- as if she could put everything back together. (sorry to be graphic).

Years ago, my brother's friend's father was killed in a tragic roadside accident, and something similar happened. The mother watched in horror as her husband was struck and killed by a passing truck after they'd pulled over to switch drivers. The frantic wife immediately started picking up her husband's body parts because she didn't want them littering the highway. She risked her own life wandering around at night, in shock, on a highway to pick up the pieces. I KNOW. I KNOW. It's gross. But she was in shock.

People do weird things when they're in shock, and under the stress of loss. They clean up messes, they impede investigation. They try to put things back together the way they were. They distance themselves from reality.

Why did CA give the wrong brush to the FBI? Why did she switch her story about the smell of death to the smell of rotten pizza? Is it possible that subconsciously she just doesn't want to help with an investigation into her granddaughter's death?

So, yes, maybe she has been impeding the investigation, but I don't believe it was conscious, or in a knowing attempt to get KC off. I think CA knew it in her heart, but couldn't bring herself to admit it.

I totally agree with you

 

[Zingo]

I think that your assessment presumes that CA is without pathology. I understand finding explanations to justify or fit in with one's rigid belief system when under thrall. Having been victimised by a psychopath I know whereof you speak. I've been the believer, but that never blurred the line between right and wrong for me. It's not about what you believe in the end, but how you behave, IMO.

The thing is, you presume that CA presents with no pathology. That the family dynamics present with no pathology. Denial looks very different when there is massive dysfunction and pathology. Denial then becomes another mechanism to manipulate others' views and avoid responsibility. True denial concerns the person's view about themselves, something that has become unbearable in relation to themselves. It's an unconscious reaction to threats to the ego. It's neurotic when used as a prolonged defence.

But when pathology exists, for example, a character disorder or disordered traits, then it sheds a completely different light on denial. Denial becomes a technique to avoid responsibility and blame the world and manipulate the world's view of them/their situation. Denial becomes a way to feign innocence.

In her behaviour, CA consistently exhibits the latter, IMO.

Right, and I have always maintained that CA is screwed up. Ha! (Pathology, dysfunction, co-dependency, anger issues, whatever). I just don't think the parents knew for a FACT about the murder and the location of the body. It's one thing to see a dead body and help dispose of it, it's another to obstruct justice by being completely dysfunctional in your denial, and avoidance of responsibility.

I don't think they helped hide the body. That being said, they didn't help find the body either. But there's a BIG difference in culpability between the two, IMO. Not enthusiastically helping to find the body is just not the same kind of EVIL as actively hiding something you know.

 

[Nosey Parker]

You tell me how neither of the A's noticed the missing Pooh blanket or noticed a very new one and I'll stop believing intentional cover-up and obstruction of justice. Tell me how the denim skirt/skort and pink shirt ended up back in Caylee's closet but neither one noticed. Tell me how other items of Caylee's clothes were found with the body but were never identified as missing by either of them. Tell me why CA didn't walk to her bathroom to get Caylee's brush. Tell me why GA's first thought at the smell was "I hope this isn't my Caylee".

GA says he turned the car on. He would have seen that the gas gauge read correctly. The car had 3/8 of a tank. Oh sure, he poured gas into the car, but it wasn't out of gas. Forensics tells us this. The gauge was working properly. His little gas cans wouldn't fill the car to 3/8 of a tank.

At this split second in time he knows that the car did not run out of gas, it stinks like a dead body and it has been sitting right here for 2 weeks because it had been in Amscot's lot for 3 days, which then means KC has had no car all this time and has been lying about her and Caylee's whereabouts. DING! DING! DING! The bells had to have been going off.

They took the battery out of the car so she could not come and get it. Then CA went to work, told the whole story of the day and assured everyone that she would look into it when she got home, later and after hearing KC's explanation. GA went to work too. He didn't get home until CA was on the phone at the 3rd 911 call.

They needed time to think before reacting to the obvious?

How did GA drive the car home and not stink like the car?

After all of this they find her shacked up with some guy they never heard of, learn that she has been living with him for the entire time, without Caylee or a car, stealing from friends they never met and instead of calling LE to find the baby, CA plays around with threats of bringing other charges. All the while, the dead-body-stinking Pontiac is in the garage and they do not know where Caylee is.

What is killing them is that she has not admitted that it was an accident and they are coming to terms with her intent. The "little" lies and "fibs" they told were in hope that there was some salvation in this tragedy and that this was a horrible accident and a panicked KC. But, they can see for themselves, it was no accident. Look at her!

She won! Whatever sickness was in her head and home, she won. She destroyed everyone. Mom is begging her, she is laughing. Dad is talking so nice now, she thinks he is putty in her hands. Lee is running around with a notebook like an idiot, looking for something he can never find. They are all paying a lot of attention to her now and as long as they don't ask her ANY questions, she will allow them to talk to her and to see her on closed circuit tv. She does not want to be bothered with anymore questions! There are some she does not yet have an answer to, such as "why didn't you go back for the car?"

You've nailed it right on the head, DotsEyes :clap::clap::clap:

 

[seagull65]

IMO, there would have been no decomp in the car if the parents knew about the death and helped KC dispose of the body. The decomp in the car tells us that for about 2 days KC didn't know what the heck to do, or was too busy to be bothered with disposing of her daughter's body.

.

Or that she didn't know Caylee was in the trunk until the smell of decomp made her look in the trunk to see what it was. (Whether the body was actually still there at the time and she discovered it or the body was no longer there but fluids had remained.)

(Excuse me for snipping your excellent post, but just to respond to the one point.)

 

[seagull65]

I don't know....every one of KC's friends said that she was an attentive mother to Caylee. No one said anything negative about her treatment of Caylee, except for the critism of her taking Caylee along to a party where drinking was going on. And that didn't sound like the norm either.

I just don't think her parents had the faintest idea that she would be capable of something like this. She was a leech, a liar and a petty thief, but there have been no reports of her being violent or abusive to Caylee.

I agree. That's why it's still hard for me to buy the supposed motive, and one more reason there is still room for doubt. Like someone else mentioned, we have to remember, KC is presumed innocent and could actually be innocent of this murder, and if she is, the actual perpetrator is obviously still out there. I can't rule KC out completely yet, but I also don't see the necessary proof yet linking this crime to KC or exclusively to her. I'm going to have to see what comes out in court to prove that or not.

 

[bessie]

:wave: Yoohooo...DotsEyes... NICE! :clap::clap::clap:

 

[MOMto5]

Or that she didn't know Caylee was in the trunk until the smell of decomp made her look in the trunk to see what it was.

(Excuse me for snipping your excellent post, but just to respond to the one point.)

How long does it take to find the trunk?

ETA: Sorry, My question no longer makes sense. The post I quoted was reworded.

 

[LisaNY]

Or that she didn't know Caylee was in the trunk until the smell of decomp made her look in the trunk to see what it was. (Whether the body was actually still there at the time and she discovered it or the body was no longer there but fluids had remained.)

(Excuse me for snipping your excellent post, but just to respond to the one point.)

Trying to follow your train of thought here, where would she have thought her daughter was? Are you saying that possibly someone put Caylee in the trunk, unbeknownst to kc, then possibly removed the body after 2.6 days, during which time kc was out partying, thinking Caylee was safe with nanny?

 

[Oakley]

Yes, but for all that time CA believed Caylee was with KC!

When she finally realized KC didn't have Caylee, she completely freaked.

And, just because the parents were slow to believe Caylee had been harmed, and slow to indict their daughter in what everybody on the outside believes is so obvious, doesn't mean they were actively covering up for KC!

They could not bring themselves to actually believe their daughter would kill their granddaughter. And can we really blame them for that??????? Our minds ignore facts when the facts become too painful to consider.

For 30 days, CA reached out to KC, and yes, she was heartbroken and desperate to see Caylee. But once she realized Caylee was REALLY gone (apparently kidnapped, according to KC), she entered the panicked, "circling the wagons" phase, trying to protect KC and find Caylee. She went actively into complete DENIAL.

It makes complete sense to me ... And, sorry, but these accusations that the grandparents actively covered for KC or knew about the murder, are in my opinion, completely illogical. Anything they did to cover for KC was the result of grief, loss and denial.

MOO ...

May be "illogical" to you Zingo, but I respectfully and heartily disagree. By the way, I don't believe your opinion is illogical, simply different than mine.

 

[Oakley]

okay I think I got them all fixed. Please read the broken quote thread and if you see one, don't carry it please!!

JBean saves the day, again! :blowkiss:

 

[Oakley]

Dot's Eyes listed all their suspect behaviour in great detail. If you are in denial it doesn't make you lie, evade, not co-operate, boast about switching hairbrushes and toothbrushes, rail at all and sundry, blame everyone but the "perfect child", etc. By any stretch of imagination or logic, this makes no sense. If they were merely in denial, then why be unco-operative and deceitful? One does not follow from the other. If they believed their daughter to be innocent, why are they not doing everything in their power to prove she is innocent and find the killer?

Denial may be a defense mechanism but to use it as an explanation for all behaviour is to present it as irrefutable and, that, IMO, makes it spurious. If you're going to place all their behaviour under the rubric of denial then you would have to address the different qualities of denial- denial of fact (lying), denial of responsibility (blaming), denial of effect, that is, their behaviour. For example, denial of fact is not simply a defence mechanism.

If you want to take denial to its most radical conclusion you could argue that the perp is in denial as well and lies pathologically because she can't handle the truth. IMO, denial is too simplistic an explanation, and definitely not in keeping with its original psychoanalytical meaning. It also ignores freedom of choice, morality, ethics, personal pathology and family dynamics. Denial doesn't automatically mean that you lie and deceive and defy. It simply can't explain away everything.

Also, there is no evidence that the As ever made an active effort to find Caylee. They just talked about it a lot and sold T shirts and had a billboard in their front yard.

Elementary, thank you for saying what I believe better than I could say it myself. Great post. :clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[Paintr]

When LE told her the next day that KC did not work at Universal and that there was no ZFG at the empty apt. (Until then, she was hanging on to the nanny story, despite the decomp in the car, she had a shred of hope that there was a kidnapping Nanny.)

Cover-up started right then. Dead body became pizza, KC became Mother of the Year instead of the unfit tramp that was causing so many problems and from whom CA wanted to take Caylee, CA couldn't walk to her bathroom to get the right hairbrush, GA saw pizza where there was none, GA "saw" Caylee in clothes that are completely different from those she was found with, GA just so happened to see the trunk of the car on the 24th and smelled nothing, GA tells a tale of a car chase which didn't happen, 31 days became June 9, CA told LE she would bring the JCP receipts "next time" she came to their office and had an appointment that interrupted her LE interview, (she didn't have time to talk the people looking for her Caylee), CA washed pants and KNIFE and febreezed the car before LE arrived, GA tossed all of his LE training and common sense out of the window, CA tossed her medical training and common sense too, no one ever begged the Nanny to return Caylee. Ever. Not one plea.

I don't think they knew or suspected anything before the car was retrieved. After the car, they knew something was terribly wrong, after they learned that there was no job or nanny, they knew Caylee was dead and that KC was responsible for her death. They held out hope that it was an accident, but KC's behavior told them otherwise.

Thank you kindly, DotsEyes! That makes perfect sense and is exactly what I was trying to lock down. I believe that CA was panicking in that 3rd call and was trying to pinpoint exactly what changed her whole attitude and when it changed.

I do believe it was a choice on the part of CA and the A's to go into 'cover up/protect our own' mode. Caylee was gone and they knew it. KC was what they had left. MOO

 

[Zingo]

Hey welcome Z, I agree with much you said in your post. When I listen to these jailhouse tapes I hear something totally different from what everyone else hears. I hear a master manipulator leading her parents around on a short leash. Casey has been pulling the wool over her parents eyes for so long, her parents were so easy to mislead and deceived that she thought the rest of the world would be the same way. Casey thought the police would look at her as a pretty, young, victim and belive her Zanny story. I don't think the grandparents helped Casey or knew about Caylee's murder. Everything they are doing now is because they know in their hearts that their daughter killed their grandaughter and as bad as that hurts, they don't want to lose Casey too and that would hurt so much more. I personally think that very soon we will see the grandparents finally coming to terms with what Casey did and maybe even speak out about it. Lee Anthony is another story though.

Excellent post. Succinctly stated. What do you think Lee did?

 

[Zingo]

May be "illogical" to you Zingo, but I respectfully and heartily disagree. By the way, I don't believe your opinion is illogical, simply different than mine.

I was referring to speculation by some on this site that the A's particpated in hiding the body, and getting rid of the car. That is the part that's illogical. Just my opinion. I'm not saying that the A's haven't done wrong, or that they aren't comopletely NUTS. But no one could convince me with what we see in those jailhouse tapes and the 911 calls that they KNOW where Caylee's body is. That's all I'm sayin' ...

 

[cuppy199]

I don't know....every one of KC's friends said that she was an attentive mother to Caylee. No one said anything negative about her treatment of Caylee, except for the critism of her taking Caylee along to a party where drinking was going on. And that didn't sound like the norm either.

I just don't think her parents had the faintest idea that she would be capable of something like this. She was a leech, a liar and a petty thief, but there have been no reports of her being violent or abusive to Caylee.

Just because there's no report doesnt mean she wasn't.No body knows what KC was like when she was alone with Caylee.Abuse isnt just phsyical it can also be mentally.There are plenty of abuse cases where there arent reports until its to late.And plenty of cases where the family and friends had no clue it was happening.And it pretty much seems like KC was without Caylee more then she was with Caylee.If you would ask her friends today they would probably say they didnt even know the real KC.

 

[BuzzieCat]

When do you think the cover up started? I thought the A's might have known soon after the murder. Then I leaned towards the retrival of the car but if that were true then why did CA even make that call to police? Had that call not been made, Caylee would have dissappeared and they could have used the old 'went to live with her father' story. The child would be gone and no one would have questioned.

You hit the nail on the head for me. IMO this is what Casey thought would happen. She would hide out and make excuses for a while. (I think she toyed with the idea of "disappearing" but was too disorganized to make it work.) She figured eventually her parents would accept that Caylee was gone forever but they would tell outsiders that she went to live with daddy. Cindy would have the pain of knowing Caylee was gone but Casey wouldn't talk about it and would expect them not to question her too much. Wow. That's what she really expected, I think.

As far as cover-up, I'm not sure how much of that was going on. I do think at first Cindy was so horrified and hoping against hope that Caylee could still come back that she was threatening Casey with 911 calls to push her. When that didn't work she freaked and called 911 in earnest, then I suspect probably later wished she could keep Casey from going to jail but it was too late.

 

[Bobbisangel]

Watching the jailhouse videos, I just come to the conclusion that Casey is trying to manipulate her parents, and they are scared to confront her. This points to a dysfunctional family, but I don't see how it implicates GA or CA in a "cover up."

When I heard KC say, "We've always stuck together and we need to stick together on this," it's just her manipulative gobblety gook. The implication is: "It's US against everybody else" and KC is trying to convince her parents of her complete innocence, and victim status.

And, I don't think they're convinced of her innocence, at least from the way they're acting in the videos. GA doesn't look KC in the eyes, and seems to patronize her by rotely agreeing with her. CA is a basketcase, and when she asks pointed questions, KC freaks out. This is how KC is able to manipulate her parents, and no doubt how she's manipulated them in the past: she rages. And then they back off.

My brother was addicted to drugs while in high school, and I saw how he behaved in a similar way to KC with her parents. (Fortunately, he got help in rehab, and he's doing great now). But before that, anytime my parents confronted him about his actions or behavior or whether he was doing drugs, he turned the conversation around and attacked them, or tried to make them believe he was the victim of a conspiracy by the police, or his teachers, or "the system." He was completely dishonest and manipulative, and I recognize the pattern. I don't know if KC has been a drug addict or not, but I see in her behavior what I remember with my brother. And for so many years, my parents were in denial. So that rings true, too, when I see GA and CA defending KC.

It's cruel ... My heart actually feels so sorry for the Anthony family.

(Sorry to be longwinded on my first post! I've been reading all the wonderful posts here for a couple of months.)

Hi...welcome...and you did great on your first post. Join in more often. I agree with everything that you had to say. Casey's behavior is just like someone that is on drugs but like you I'm not sure if she was ever a user. Maybe that is just who she is. She sure does know how to manipulate her parents though. I'll bet they are just sick of her behavior and relieved that they don't have to go to the jail to visit or listen to her rant and rave. You can love your child but that doesn't mean that you have to like them at times and especially with behavior like that.

I too feel bad for George and Cindy even if their behavior hasn't been what it should have been while Caylee was missing. I don't doubt for a second that they loved that little girl with everything in them. I believe they are living in hell right now knowing they will never see her again or hug and kiss her. She was such a little cutie and probably had a personality that brought them a lot of joy.

 

[BuzzieCat]

I noticed in the 8/14 video that Cindy specifically asked Casey what message she wanted to convey to the nanny. Casey goes into her spiel about forgiving her and wanting Caylee back. Cindy asks Casey if she really thinks it's possible for the nanny to bring Caylee back - she seems to still actually be holding onto the smallest, most tentative hope that somehow the nanny story is all true. Yet apparently she doesn't ever use the media to get out Casey's message to the nanny.

I guess I just don't get Cindy at all.