Casey to GA "We need to stick together on this." 8/14/08 Jail Visit

[mikeysmommom]

If there was a cover-up by all the A's, you think the best they could do was the stupid nanny story ??........Not one thing in the nanny story could be verified by LE.

Also, why not report the car stolen ??

& as you said, involving LE blows any "cover-up" story.

If Cindy had never called LE, we could all be cleaning house

Very True.

 

[mikeysmommom]

Absolutely, N4GetC, I totally agree. Faced with two prospects, a) believing Caylee is dead and KC killed her, or b) Nanny kidnapped Caylee and she might still be alive ... which would any grandparent believe?

**Warning, graphic***don't read if you'll be offended***

Oh, and your story about your cousin rings true to me. We sometimes have a natural instinct to clean up when we're in shock... It's gruesome to recall this image, but I remember watching the video of JFK's assasination awhile back. And I couldn't get over how right after the bullets tore through Pres. Kennedy, Jackie Kennedy was climbing onto the trunk of the car, picking up pieces of her husband's "grey matter" -- in other words, she was retrieving parts of his brain. She went into immediate "clean up" mode -- as if she could put everything back together. (sorry to be graphic).

Years ago, my brother's friend's father was killed in a tragic roadside accident, and something similar happened. The mother watched in horror as her husband was struck and killed by a passing truck after they'd pulled over to switch drivers. The frantic wife immediately started picking up her husband's body parts because she didn't want them littering the highway. She risked her own life wandering around at night, in shock, on a highway to pick up the pieces. I KNOW. I KNOW. It's gross. But she was in shock.

People do weird things when they're in shock, and under the stress of loss. They clean up messes, they impede investigation. They try to put things back together the way they were. They distance themselves from reality.

Why did CA give the wrong brush to the FBI? Why did she switch her story about the smell of death to the smell of rotten pizza? Is it possible that subconsciously she just doesn't want to help with an investigation into her granddaughter's death?

So, yes, maybe she has been impeding the investigation, but I don't believe it was conscious, or in a knowing attempt to get KC off. I think CA knew it in her heart, but couldn't bring herself to admit it.

I agree. In a horrible situation the mind shuts out what it can not deal with. A protection mode some people have it,thats why they have a breakdown. Dealing with a dead grandchild is so very hard, but when your child kills her child it must be a million times worse IMO..

 

[tx_Dot]

The whole phone calls thing confuses me. It doesn't seem to fit any story I come up with.

Nope! I still wouldn't be cleaning house. LOL!

I think the first 2 calls are a 'threat' to get KC to tell her where Caylee is....

Cindy had to of been "re-thinking" everything she had heard from KC the last month....trying to put pieces together..etc

When she hears KC 'confessing' to LA, :bang: she knows something has happened & makes the third call.

I wish AH would told us about the 30 min conversation outside TL apt....
(as to what KC was first saying about Caylee)

 

[elementary]

Yes, but for all that time CA believed Caylee was with KC!

When she finally realized KC didn't have Caylee, she completely freaked.

And, just because the parents were slow to believe Caylee had been harmed, and slow to indict their daughter in what everybody on the outside believes is so obvious, doesn't mean they were actively covering up for KC!

They could not bring themselves to actually believe their daughter would kill their granddaughter. And can we really blame them for that??????? Our minds ignore facts when the facts become too painful to consider.

For 30 days, CA reached out to KC, and yes, she was heartbroken and desperate to see Caylee. But once she realized Caylee was REALLY gone (apparently kidnapped, according to KC), she entered the panicked, "circling the wagons" phase, trying to protect KC and find Caylee. She went actively into complete DENIAL.

It makes complete sense to me ... And, sorry, but these accusations that the grandparents actively covered for KC or knew about the murder, are in my opinion, completely illogical. Anything they did to cover for KC was the result of grief, loss and denial.

MOO ...

Dot's Eyes listed all their suspect behaviour in great detail. If you are in denial it doesn't make you lie, evade, not co-operate, boast about switching hairbrushes and toothbrushes, rail at all and sundry, blame everyone but the "perfect child", etc. By any stretch of imagination or logic, this makes no sense. If they were merely in denial, then why be unco-operative and deceitful? One does not follow from the other. If they believed their daughter to be innocent, why are they not doing everything in their power to prove she is innocent and find the killer?

Denial may be a defense mechanism but to use it as an explanation for all behaviour is to present it as irrefutable and, that, IMO, makes it spurious. If you're going to place all their behaviour under the rubric of denial then you would have to address the different qualities of denial- denial of fact (lying), denial of responsibility (blaming), denial of effect, that is, their behaviour. For example, denial of fact is not simply a defence mechanism.

If you want to take denial to its most radical conclusion you could argue that the perp is in denial as well and lies pathologically because she can't handle the truth. IMO, denial is too simplistic an explanation, and definitely not in keeping with its original psychoanalytical meaning. It also ignores freedom of choice, morality, ethics, personal pathology and family dynamics. Denial doesn't automatically mean that you lie and deceive and defy. It simply can't explain away everything.

Also, there is no evidence that the As ever made an active effort to find Caylee. They just talked about it a lot and sold T shirts and had a billboard in their front yard.

 

[Paintr]

I think the first 2 calls are a 'threat' to get KC to tell her where Caylee is....

Cindy had to of been "re-thinking" everything she had heard from KC the last month....trying to put pieces together..etc

When she hears KC 'confessing' to LA, :bang: she knows something has happened & makes the third call.

I wish AH would told us about the 30 min conversation outside TL apt....
(as to what KC was first saying about Caylee)

Ok I am with you so far. Now CA has made the 3 rd call. When did operation cover up begin? And what happened to cause this to kick in. What did CA see or hear that switched her from panic to cover up?

 

[bunnyphoenix1]

If there was a cover-up by all the A's, you think the best they could do was the stupid nanny story ??........Not one thing in the nanny story could be verified by LE.

Also, why not report the car stolen ??

& as you said, involving LE blows any "cover-up" story.

If Cindy had never called LE, we could all be cleaning house

I don't agree. I think it's pretty obvious that her co-workers would have called themselves had she not done so, and I think Cindy knew that.

Re the nanny story...I think that may be the best they can come up with...they are obviously not very bright. Casey didn't even think they'd figure out she didn't work at Universal. You have to be a pea brain to think you'll get away with that whopper!

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I agree. In a horrible situation the mind shuts out what it can not deal with. A protection mode some people have it,thats why they have a breakdown. Dealing with a dead grandchild is so very hard, but when your child kills her child it must be a million times worse IMO..

Yes. So isn't it an odd time to fly around the country doing cameo appearances on television and to worry more about taking in money for donations than to concentrate on finding your granddaughter's perceived real killer?! Wouldn't a person be begging and pleading for a kidnapper to bring her home? Wouldn't a person be down on their hands and knees begging people to help find her instead of cussing them out and calling them drunks for trying to help?!

A million times worse...INDEED! So why didn't we see it?! She never shut out the truth...she only covered it up, imo. That is not denial...it is defiance!

 

[Paintr]

Yes. So isn't it an odd time to fly around the country doing cameo appearances on television and to worry more about taking in money for donations than to concentrate on finding your granddaughter's perceived real killer?! Wouldn't a person be begging and pleading for a kidnapper to bring her home? Wouldn't a person be down on their hands and knees begging people to help find her instead of cussing them out and calling them drunks for trying to help?!

A million times worse...INDEED! So why didn't we see it?! She never shut out the truth...she only covered it up, imo. That is not denial...it is defiance!

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

And WHY did they search the backyard?

 

[DISPATCHER3062]

I am also a grandmother to only 1 grandchild and if anything would of happened to her when she was caylee's age or even now they would have to put a straight jacket on me and put me in a mental ward. I think cindy is having a hard time coping with the death of caylee and knowing her daughter did it would be such pressure for her and george, they are in my prayers, excuse the caps i didn't know till i got ready to send

 

[Jay D]

You tell me how neither of the A's noticed the missing Pooh blanket or noticed a very new one and I'll stop believing intentional cover-up and obstruction of justice. Tell me how the denim skirt/skort and pink shirt ended up back in Caylee's closet but neither one noticed. Tell me how other items of Caylee's clothes were found with the body but were never identified as missing by either of them. Tell me why CA didn't walk to her bathroom to get Caylee's brush. Tell me why GA's first thought at the smell was "I hope this isn't my Caylee".

GA says he turned the car on. He would have seen that the gas gauge read correctly. The car had 3/8 of a tank. Oh sure, he poured gas into the car, but it wasn't out of gas. Forensics tells us this. The gauge was working properly. His little gas cans wouldn't fill the car to 3/8 of a tank.

At this split second in time he knows that the car did not run out of gas, it stinks like a dead body and it has been sitting right here for 2 weeks because it had been in Amscot's lot for 3 days, which then means KC has had no car all this time and has been lying about her and Caylee's whereabouts. DING! DING! DING! The bells had to have been going off.

They took the battery out of the car so she could not come and get it. Then CA went to work, told the whole story of the day and assured everyone that she would look into it when she got home, later and after hearing KC's explanation. GA went to work too. He didn't get home until CA was on the phone at the 3rd 911 call.

They needed time to think before reacting to the obvious?

How did GA drive the car home and not stink like the car?

After all of this they find her shacked up with some guy they never heard of, learn that she has been living with him for the entire time, without Caylee or a car, stealing from friends they never met and instead of calling LE to find the baby, CA plays around with threats of bringing other charges. All the while, the dead-body-stinking Pontiac is in the garage and they do not know where Caylee is.

What is killing them is that she has not admitted that it was an accident and they are coming to terms with her intent. The "little" lies and "fibs" they told were in hope that there was some salvation in this tragedy and that this was a horrible accident and a panicked KC. But, they can see for themselves, it was no accident. Look at her!

She won! Whatever sickness was in her head and home, she won. She destroyed everyone. Mom is begging her, she is laughing. Dad is talking so nice now, she thinks he is putty in her hands. Lee is running around with a notebook like an idiot, looking for something he can never find. They are all paying a lot of attention to her now and as long as they don't ask her ANY questions, she will allow them to talk to her and to see her on closed circuit tv. She does not want to be bothered with anymore questions! There are some she does not yet have an answer to, such as "why didn't you go back for the car?"

Dot's Eyes listed all their suspect behaviour in great detail. If you are in denial it doesn't make you lie, evade, not co-operate, boast about switching hairbrushes and toothbrushes, rail at all and sundry, blame everyone but the "perfect child", etc. By any stretch of imagination or logic, this makes no sense. If they were merely in denial, then why be unco-operative and deceitful? One does not follow from the other. If they believed their daughter to be innocent, why are they not doing everything in their power to prove she is innocent and find the killer?

Denial may be a defense mechanism but to use it as an explanation for all behaviour is to present it as irrefutable and, that, IMO, makes it spurious. If you're going to place all their behaviour under the rubric of denial then you would have to address the different qualities of denial- denial of fact (lying), denial of responsibility (blaming), denial of effect, that is, their behaviour. For example, denial of fact is not simply a defence mechanism.

If you want to take denial to its most radical conclusion you could argue that the perp is in denial as well and lies pathologically because she can't handle the truth. IMO, denial is too simplistic an explanation, and definitely not in keeping with its original psychoanalytical meaning. It also ignores freedom of choice, morality, ethics, personal pathology and family dynamics. Denial doesn't automatically mean that you lie and deceive and defy. It simply can't explain away everything.

Also, there is no evidence that the As ever made an active effort to find Caylee. They just talked about it a lot and sold T shirts and had a billboard in their front yard.

Two very outstanding posts, and they serve to compliment each other. So good I couldn't snip.

Lee needs to be strongly looked at in this "sticking together on this" business. I suspect the coverup began when he and KC were in the garage, discussing strategy in the stench. Lee does have influence on George and Cindy. Remember who talked them out of polygraphs.

 

[Zingo]

Dot's Eyes listed all their suspect behaviour in great detail. If you are in denial it doesn't make you lie, evade, not co-operate, boast about switching hairbrushes and toothbrushes, rail at all and sundry, blame everyone but the "perfect child", etc. By any stretch of imagination or logic, this makes no sense. If they were merely in denial, then why be unco-operative and deceitful? One does not follow from the other. If they believed their daughter to be innocent, why are they not doing everything in their power to prove she is innocent and find the killer?

Denial may be a defense mechanism but to use it as an explanation for all behaviour is to present it as irrefutable and, that, IMO, makes it spurious. If you're going to place all their behaviour under the rubric of denial then you would have to address the different qualities of denial- denial of fact (lying), denial of responsibility (blaming), denial of effect, that is, their behaviour. For example, denial of fact is not simply a defence mechanism.

If you want to take denial to its most radical conclusion you could argue that the perp is in denial as well and lies pathologically because she can't handle the truth. IMO, denial is too simplistic an explanation, and definitely not in keeping with its original psychoanalytical meaning. It also ignores freedom of choice, morality, ethics, personal pathology and family dynamics. Denial doesn't automatically mean that you lie and deceive and defy. It simply can't explain away everything.

Also, there is no evidence that the As ever made an active effort to find Caylee. They just talked about it a lot and sold T shirts and had a billboard in their front yard.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I could be wrong in my analysis. I've only seen CA through TV clips.

But here's where I'm coming from: Have you spent much time in organized religion? I have. I grew up devout Mormon, and left the church when I was 34 after reading additional "facts" that contradicted what I was taught. This discovery and others led me to disbelieve ALL religion. But five years later, in a crisis, I latched back onto my faith, and you could NOT have told me it wasn't the TRUTH -- despite everything I knew. So, while in crisis, I disregarded my logical brain because I WANTED to believe. And I made all sorts of well-intentioned statements about how much I believed, and how right it was, and how I'd been WRONG when I was so skeptical before. Everything made sense because I needed it to make sense. Was I lying????

Call it denial. Or call it deliberate "misinterpretation of facts." People latch on to particular narratives at various points in their lives, and convince themselves their interpretation of reality is true. (Kinda like people who are diehard Democrats or Republicans -- you usually can't convince them otherwise. They ignore anything that contradicts their point of view). And they go around telling other people it's true. And anyone who doesn't believe like they do is "the enemy" -- not to be trusted.

What CA apparently has done is convince herself in her crisis that KC the known liar is actually telling the truth: nanny took Caylee, police are out to get the Anthony's, it's "us against the world." CA's "misinterpretation" of the situation, doesn't excuse her statements, or her interference with the investigation, but it does explain why she's doing it, IMO. I see CA as the more sympathetic figure because she probably doesn't have ACTUAL knowledge of the facts -- just eyewitness false testimony from her daughter (kinda like people who believe their religion based solely on accounts from the scriptures -- who can blame THEM for that?)

At some point, CA might wake up from her crisis, like I eventually did with my church, and after the anger and rage wears off, say: I love KC with all my heart. I'll always love her. She'll always be my daughter. We will always have some kind of relationship. But I'm not going to believe what she says anymore. She is not telling me the whole truth. And I need (and want) to live in the real world.

 

[tx_Dot]

I don't agree. I think it's pretty obvious that her co-workers would have called themselves had she not done so, and I think Cindy knew that.

Re the nanny story...I think that may be the best they can come up with...they are obviously not very bright. Casey didn't even think they'd figure out she didn't work at Universal. You have to be a pea brain to think you'll get away with that whopper!

(Notice my reply is to a 'cover-up' by all (or a least C & G).

So if Cindy is in on a 'cover-up' why tell her co-workers anything ??

From our own time lines it looks like Cindy waited about 4/5 hours from the time she left the tow yard until her first 9-11 call....this includes driving time/working/finding Amy/finding & talking with KC......

Now if she had waited 4/5 days, I'd be asking many questions.

 

[debs]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I could be wrong in my analysis. I've only seen CA through TV clips.

But here's where I'm coming from: Have you spent much time in organized religion? I have. I grew up devout Mormon, and left the church when I was 34 after reading additional "facts" that contradicted what I was taught. This discovery and others led me to disbelieve ALL religion. But five years later, in a crisis, I latched back onto my faith, and you could NOT have told me it wasn't the TRUTH -- despite everything I knew. So, while in crisis, I disregarded my logical brain because I WANTED to believe. And I made all sorts of well-intentioned statements about how much I believed, and how right it was, and how I'd been WRONG when I was so skeptical before. Everything made sense because I needed it to make sense. Was I lying????

Call it denial. Or call it deliberate "misinterpretation of facts." People latch on to particular narratives at various points in their lives, and convince themselves their interpretation of reality is true. (Kinda like people who are diehard Democrats or Republicans -- you usually can't convince them otherwise. They ignore anything that contradicts their point of view). And they go around telling other people it's true. And anyone who doesn't believe like they do is "the enemy" -- not to be trusted.

What CA apparently has done is convince herself in her crisis that KC the known liar is actually telling the truth: nanny took Caylee, police are out to get the Anthony's, it's "us against the world." CA's "misinterpretation" of the situation, doesn't excuse her statements, or her interference with the investigation, but it does explain why she's doing it, IMO. I see CA as the more sympathetic figure because she probably doesn't have ACTUAL knowledge of the facts -- just eyewitness false testimony from her daughter (kinda like people who believe their religion based solely on accounts from the scriptures -- who can blame THEM for that?)

At some point, CA might wake up from her crisis, like I eventually did with my church, and after the anger and rage wears off, say: I love KC with all my heart. I'll always love her. She'll always be my daughter. We will always have some kind of relationship. But I'm not going to believe what she says anymore. She is not telling me the whole truth. And I need (and want) to live in the real world.

Respectfully, you found strength in faith, based in what "should" be good for the soul. The Anthony's found their strength in lies. There is nothing to compare the two, and denial and faith are not synonymous. Having found a different way to live in your life with the benefit of faith and all it entails does not constitute having lived a lie, just as living your life now without faith does not say you live a lie.

When you embrace lies, you court the darkest part of the self. When you thrust those lies onto people who genuinely want to help find a small child who is at best endangered and at worst dead, you court a darkness in humanity that some call evil.

There is no explanation beyond willful construct of lies and obfuscation to explain the Anthony family in the days and weeks after they picked up the car. It would seem that people should remember that most of Cindy's behavior is constructed so as to offer little or no help in finding Caylee. It is apparent, then, that the "panicked" 911 call would be out of character.

I will not excuse lies as an emotional break with reality, because everything this family has done has seemed quite calculated to steer eyes away from the truth.

 

[DotsEyes]

Ok I am with you so far. Now CA has made the 3 rd call. When did operation cover up begin? And what happened to cause this to kick in. What did CA see or hear that switched her from panic to cover up?

When LE told her the next day that KC did not work at Universal and that there was no ZFG at the empty apt. (Until then, she was hanging on to the nanny story, despite the decomp in the car, she had a shred of hope that there was a kidnapping Nanny.)

Cover-up started right then. Dead body became pizza, KC became Mother of the Year instead of the unfit tramp that was causing so many problems and from whom CA wanted to take Caylee, CA couldn't walk to her bathroom to get the right hairbrush, GA saw pizza where there was none, GA "saw" Caylee in clothes that are completely different from those she was found with, GA just so happened to see the trunk of the car on the 24th and smelled nothing, GA tells a tale of a car chase which didn't happen, 31 days became June 9, CA told LE she would bring the JCP receipts "next time" she came to their office and had an appointment that interrupted her LE interview, (she didn't have time to talk the people looking for her Caylee), CA washed pants and KNIFE and febreezed the car before LE arrived, GA tossed all of his LE training and common sense out of the window, CA tossed her medical training and common sense too, no one ever begged the Nanny to return Caylee. Ever. Not one plea.

I don't think they knew or suspected anything before the car was retrieved. After the car, they knew something was terribly wrong, after they learned that there was no job or nanny, they knew Caylee was dead and that KC was responsible for her death. They held out hope that it was an accident, but KC's behavior told them otherwise.

 

[elementary]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I could be wrong in my analysis. I've only seen CA through TV clips.

But here's where I'm coming from: Have you spent much time in organized religion? I have. I grew up devout Mormon, and left the church when I was 34 after reading additional "facts" that contradicted what I was taught. This discovery and others led me to disbelieve ALL religion. But five years later, in a crisis, I latched back onto my faith, and you could NOT have told me it wasn't the TRUTH -- despite everything I knew. So, while in crisis, I disregarded my logical brain because I WANTED to believe. And I made all sorts of well-intentioned statements about how much I believed, and how right it was, and how I'd been WRONG when I was so skeptical before. Everything made sense because I needed it to make sense. Was I lying????

Call it denial. Or call it deliberate "misinterpretation of facts." People latch on to particular narratives at various points in their lives, and convince themselves their interpretation of reality is true. (Kinda like people who are diehard Democrats or Republicans -- you usually can't convince them otherwise. They ignore anything that contradicts their point of view). And they go around telling other people it's true. And anyone who doesn't believe like they do is "the enemy" -- not to be trusted.

What CA apparently has done is convince herself in her crisis that KC the known liar is actually telling the truth: nanny took Caylee, police are out to get the Anthony's, it's "us against the world." CA's "misinterpretation" of the situation, doesn't excuse her statements, or her interference with the investigation, but it does explain why she's doing it, IMO. I see CA as the more sympathetic figure because she probably doesn't have ACTUAL knowledge of the facts -- just eyewitness false testimony from her daughter (kinda like people who believe their religion based solely on accounts from the scriptures -- who can blame THEM for that?)

At some point, CA might wake up from her crisis, like I eventually did with my church, and after the anger and rage wears off, say: I love KC with all my heart. I'll always love her. She'll always be my daughter. We will always have some kind of relationship. But I'm not going to believe what she says anymore. She is not telling me the whole truth. And I need (and want) to live in the real world.

I think that your assessment presumes that CA is without pathology. I understand finding explanations to justify or fit in with one's rigid belief system when under thrall. Having been victimised by a psychopath I know whereof you speak. I've been the believer, but that never blurred the line between right and wrong for me. It's not about what you believe in the end, but how you behave, IMO.

The thing is, you presume that CA presents with no pathology. That the family dynamics present with no pathology. Denial looks very different when there is massive dysfunction and pathology. Denial then becomes another mechanism to manipulate others' views and avoid responsibility. True denial concerns the person's view about themselves, something that has become unbearable in relation to themselves. It's an unconscious reaction to threats to the ego. It's neurotic when used as a prolonged defence.

But when pathology exists, for example, a character disorder or disordered traits, then it sheds a completely different light on denial. Denial becomes a technique to avoid responsibility and blame the world and manipulate the world's view of them/their situation. Denial becomes a way to feign innocence.

In her behaviour, CA consistently exhibits the latter, IMO.

 

[debs]

When LE told her the next day that KC did not work at Universal and that there was no ZFG at the empty apt. (Until then, she was hanging on to the nanny story, despite the decomp in the car, she had a shred of hope that there was a kidnapping Nanny.)

Cover-up started right then. Dead body became pizza, KC became Mother of the Year instead of the unfit tramp that was causing so many problems and from whom CA wanted to take Caylee, CA couldn't walk to her bathroom to get the right hairbrush, GA saw pizza where there was none, GA "saw" Caylee in clothes that are completely different from those she was found with, GA just so happened to see the trunk of the car on the 24th and smelled nothing, GA tells a tale of a car chase which didn't happen, 31 days became June 9, CA told LE she would bring the JCP receipts "next time" she came to their office and had an appointment that interrupted her LE interview, (she didn't have time to talk the people looking for her Caylee), CA washed pants and KNIFE and febreezed the car before LE arrived, GA tossed all of his LE training and common sense out of the window, CA tossed her medical training and common sense too, no one ever begged the Nanny to return Caylee. Ever. Not one plea.

I don't think they knew or suspected anything before the car was retrieved. After the car, they knew something was terribly wrong, after they learned that there was no job or nanny, they knew Caylee was dead and that KC was responsible for her death. They held out hope that it was an accident, but KC's behavior told them otherwise.

(bolded by me) Even though in EVERY jail video, Casey made sure to say "Tell Zanny I forgive her and that we just want our Caylee back." EVERY video she gives her family a message to relay. I do not recall even ONE time that they honored that request. I don't care if it is false or not; they did NOT relay that message for their incarcerated daughter.

 

[Oakley]

AH didn't think she was that great a mom for putting her on the couch during their parties. She didn't think it was right, and mentions one time when Caylee wakes up and is scared. Also TonE has to tell KC that his apt isn't a good place to bring Caylee. RM states that Caylee slept in the same bed with them, and he didn't see anything wrong with that. With her unquenchable need for sex, I think most people would see something wrong with that. Then there's LG who attempts to state that she thought KC was a good mom but it falls flat. Some of her friends didn't even notice Caylee was around or pay any attention to her at all which is why it seemed they weren't concerned when she wasn't there anymore. jmo

Post 81 is not my post - it belongs to zingo. Mods, please correct broken quotes in post 81. Thank you!

 

[JBean]

hang on lt me fix this and then I will reopen. you guys have to be careful

 

[JBean]

oh man you guys did a number on this,,it is going to take me awhile.

 

[JBean]

here read this while I am working on this
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76874