Catholic Church to open its doors to gay priests

[BillyGoatGruff]

They are pedophiles. A true pedophile is not attracted to adults, so neither homosexuality nor heterosexuality applies.

That's a rather simple understanding. There are clearly pedophiles with homosexual (which means same sex) preferences, pedophiles with heterosexual (opposite sex) preferences, and those who are bisexual (both sexes). "Homosexuality" and "heterosexuality" doesn't simply mean attraction to ADULTS of either your own or another sex.
The biggest problem I have with the gay community re pedophiles is that a sizable number, if they think no one who thinks otherwise is listening, will defend molestation of boys under the age of 15 by older men, claiming it as consensual and part of learning they're gay. (I guess they are talking about themselves.) By that logic, women should defend being molested as children because it "made them a woman".

 

[Nova]

That's a rather simple understanding. There are clearly pedophiles with homosexual (which means same sex) preferences, pedophiles with heterosexual (opposite sex) preferences, and those who are bisexual (both sexes). "Homosexuality" and "heterosexuality" doesn't simply mean attraction to ADULTS of either your own or another sex.

Uh, yes, as a matter of fact, that is what "homosexuality" and "heterosexuality" mean - attraction to ADULTS of the same or opposite sex.

While it is true that some pedophiles molest only boys, some only girls, and some molest either girls or boys, that doesn't mean the first group are representative of homosexuals, the second of heterosexuals, and the third are "bi." In each case, the *primary* aspect of desire is the child's extreme youth.

Although in the strictest, technical sense, sexual behavior with a child of the same sex may be called "homosexual," the word in such a case applies only to the behavior, not to the "preference" or "identity" of the molester. The key word is behavior. Sex between two prison inmates is homosexual, even though both of the participants may be heterosexuals.

Most of these terms were invented in a context of extreme bigotry and ignorance, so they are problematic to say the least. But it is unfair to say a male pedophile who targets boys is a "homosexual" - and gives credence to the worst sort of stereotypes.

 

[Nova]

The biggest problem I have with the gay community re pedophiles is that a sizable number, if they think no one who thinks otherwise is listening, will defend molestation of boys under the age of 15 by older men, claiming it as consensual and part of learning they're gay. (I guess they are talking about themselves.) By that logic, women should defend being molested as children because it "made them a woman".

Billy, I am gay and have been out of the closet for more than 30 years now. During that time I have lived in Ft. Lauderdale, New York, Los Angeles and Palm Springs - all cities rather famous for their gay populations. I have taught and published articles on gay history and have been interviewed in various publications as a supposed "expert" on gay culture. I have spent plenty of time with gay men when no one else was present.

And I have NEVER neard a single person articulate the argument you say is your "problem" with "the gay community."

I have READ that argument, usually attributed to a NAMBLA-type making an argument for lowering the age of consent. But never has anyone I met propose such a thing within my hearing.

I have heard VICTIMS of a relationship like you describe say it didn't do them any particular harm. Whether a victim's opinion should be trusted in this area is a fair question and I don't pretend to be an authority (no personal experience). But even such victims didn't propose teen sex with an adult should be generally practiced, they just said it wasn't terribly damaging in their individual cases. (Of course there may be damage they don't recognize or acknowledge.)

Are there gay men somewhere who think teen sex is a beneficial rite of passage? I'm sure there are, just as there are many, many heterosexuals who will argue a teen boy is lucky to have sex with an adult woman. (Jay Leno and Dave Letterman joke about this.) But you are dead wrong that gays commonly believe children under the age of 15 should be having sex with anybody.

 

[Becba]

I am still disturbed about churches getting reimbursed for evacuees. I donated money. If Fema pays them money to it is a profit.

What is going on with that?

 

[Dark Knight]

And to provide them access to lots of little alter boys to play with.

I've avoided this thread because I just knew someone would say something like this, but curiosity got the best of me. :doh:

I find this comment totally unnecessary and offensive as a Catholic, as well. But I see others have pointed out the lack of a link between homosexuals and pedophiles and even celibacy.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Billy, I am gay and have been out of the closet for more than 30 years now. During that time I have lived in Ft. Lauderdale, New York, Los Angeles and Palm Springs - all cities rather famous for their gay populations. I have taught published articles on gay history and have been interviewed in various publications as a supposed "expert" on gay culture. I have spent plenty of time with gay men when no one else was present.

And I have NEVER neard a single person articulate the argument you say is your "problem" with "the gay community."

I have READ that argument, usually attributed to a NAMBLA-type making an argument for lowering the age of consent. But never has anyone I met propose such a thing within my hearing.

I have heard VICTIMS of a relationship like you describe say it didn't do them any particular harm. Whether a victim's opinion should be trusted in this area is a fair question and I don't pretend to be an authority (no personal experience). But even such victims didn't propose teen sex with an adult should be generally practiced, they just said it wasn't terribly damaging in their individual cases. (Of course there may be damage they don't recognize or acknowledge.)

Are there gay men somewhere who think teen sex is a beneficial rite of passage? I'm sure there are, just as there are many, many heterosexuals who will argue a teen boy is lucky to have sex with an adult woman. (Jay Leno and Dave Letterman joke about this.) But you are dead wrong that gays commonly believe children under the age of 15 should be having sex with anybody.

:clap: :clap: Well said and thank you for the articulate post!

 

[Nova]

I've avoided this thread because I just knew someone would say something like this, but curiosity got the best of me. :doh:

I find this comment totally unnecessary and offensive as a Catholic, as well. But I see others have pointed out the lack of a link between homosexuals and pedophiles and even celibacy.

Pardon the pun, DK, but we could say that this thread makes "strange bedfellows."

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Billy, I am gay and have been out of the closet for more than 30 years now. During that time I have lived in Ft. Lauderdale, New York, Los Angeles and Palm Springs - all cities rather famous for their gay populations. I have taught and published articles on gay history and have been interviewed in various publications as a supposed "expert" on gay culture. I have spent plenty of time with gay men when no one else was present.

And I have NEVER neard a single person articulate the argument you say is your "problem" with "the gay community."

I have READ that argument, usually attributed to a NAMBLA-type making an argument for lowering the age of consent. But never has anyone I met propose such a thing within my hearing.

I have heard VICTIMS of a relationship like you describe say it didn't do them any particular harm. Whether a victim's opinion should be trusted in this area is a fair question and I don't pretend to be an authority (no personal experience). But even such victims didn't propose teen sex with an adult should be generally practiced, they just said it wasn't terribly damaging in their individual cases. (Of course there may be damage they don't recognize or acknowledge.)

Are there gay men somewhere who think teen sex is a beneficial rite of passage? I'm sure there are, just as there are many, many heterosexuals who will argue a teen boy is lucky to have sex with an adult woman. (Jay Leno and Dave Letterman joke about this.) But you are dead wrong that gays commonly believe children under the age of 15 should be having sex with anybody.

My roomie in college was gay. So were all his friends. We're talking about at least 15 people here. They all had been initiated sexually by what we would now call child molestation--some of it rather violent. They seemed to take it as the price they paid for discovering themselves, although none of them, as far as I knew, were also preying on children.The pedophile my family had the misfortune of beng targeted by had a rather surprising circle of high profile members of the gay community, both locally and nationally, close ranks around him when he was charged (for what proved to be the 2nd time) with aggravated child molestation and child charges, all of them claiming it was a witch hunt or, even worse, when no reporters were around, a "lifestyle choice". This might have made some sense, but the man in question has stringently refused to admit he was/is gay. I lost a lot of respect and trust in the gay community when that occured, and no longer speak to several gay former friends. I think there is a lot of denial going on within the gay community re the impact and influence of child molestation on its adult membership, just as there has been a great deal of denial re the heterosexual majority re the damage and consequences of incest/child molestation in general.

 

[Nova]

Billy, I am very, very sorry you and your family had such an ugly experience, and I don't blame you for feeling bitter toward men who supported someone who victimized your family.

I won't defend that sort of "minority solidarity" with a criminal (and I hope I'm never guilty of such a travesty), but I assume you know where that sort of behavior originates. (Appropriately, there's a new thread on the OJ case at the moment.) Subject any minority to years of criminalization and repeated "invention" of trumped-up charges and you will breed a deep, but pretty much automatic mistrust of law enforcement. (And as you know, even though it wasn't true in the case you describe, it was once not uncommon to accuse any and all gays of child molestation.) To me, your family's unfortunate case doesn't prove gays are "okay" with child molestation so much as it proves we as a group are still deeply suspicious of the legal system and apt to "hang together" to avoid "hanging separately."

But I will certainly grant you that being gay doesn't necessarily make one any MORE cognizant of the dangers of child abuse. I imagine gays in general are just as ignorant on the subject as straights - and therefore just as capable of denial.

As for your group of 15, gay men who had been molestation victims, that's an extraordinary collection by any reckoning! At what ages were these guys supposedly molested? Where did they live when you knew them?

 

[GonzoReiter]

15 people in that small circle of friends? Whoa!...a Franklin Coverup Redux story in the making there, for sure.

Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children and are preadolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so.

The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. Further, there appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual based on the studies I've read. Empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children.
I don't think anyone would argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. There is evidence that supports a marked number of child molesters were, in fact, abused as children but that's a completely different topic.

If someone’s primary sexual activity is molesting goats, I wouldn't think one would ask whether the goats are male or female to determine whether the person is “straight” or “gay”...to take the posit to the extreme.

The direction this thread has taken though, does bring to mind another conundrum:

Is there a link between screwdrivers and car stereo thieves?
​

 

[Nova]

I think a part of the problem lies in the limitations of our language, Gonzo. The fact that a man who molests a boy - technically speaking - engages in "homosexual" behavior doesn't help matters.

Of course, when a man rapes a women, he - again technically - engages in "heterosexual" behavior, but almost nobody applies that word in such cases. So there isn't the temptation to think of "rape" as somehow typical of heterosexuals.

 

[angelmom]

I have mixed feelings about this ruling. I don't believe in punishing gay men who are celibate and feel called to be priests, especially since living their Catholic faith as a homosexual challenges them to live a celibate life. I can't imagine the emotions involved.

However, the statistics about child and youth sexual abuse by priests vary from normal sex abuse statistics in some significant ways:

• While the most vulnerable age for molestation to occur in the general population is 7-13, it is significantly higher (12-15) in priest abuse cases. This age group falls outside the usual definition of pedophilia, and would be more accurately described as sexual abuse.
• In the general population, girls are overwhelmingly more likely to be sexually abused. In priest sexual abuse cases, the vast majority of victims are teen boys.
• The abusers are mostly men in the general population, but there are a significant number of women who commit these crimes. Obviously, by definition, priest abusers are all male.

What do these things tell us? The priest sexual abuse scandal isn't really about pedophilia. It's about sexual abuse, abuse of power, and abuse of trust in the most horrific way. Is there a connection to sexual orientation? I have no idea, but based on the previous cases, I think the anxiety is not unreasonable.

As an employee at a Catholic school, the precautions being taken right now remind me of having to take off your shoes during the security screenings at the airport - it looks good, but does it really do anything to protect us? I hope and pray that it does.

 

[Casshew]

Anyone who is going to be drawn to the Church will be raised in enviornment where the Church is important to his family and a big part of his young life.

Catholicism frowns on homosexuality and considers it wrong - therefore a young man struggling with his sexuality, knowing his church does not approve of his attaction to other boys - may try to supress these feelings and want to enter the priesthood to get away from these temptations, hide from them, be cured from them by devoting his life to serving God.

This may work for a while - but everyone goes through personal crisis and has weak moments. Everyone is human.

I beleive a high percentage of Priests are homosexual to begin with - I am not saying they are active or abusing anyone - I am just saying that their homosexual tendencies may be what drew them to the priesthood to begin with. I am sure there is a lot of shame lumped on them, when they hear how immoral it is thought of, yet they have urges they cannot help.

 

[concernedperson]

Anyone who is going to be drawn to the Church will be raised in enviornment where the Church is important to his family and a big part of his young life.

Catholicism frowns on homosexuality and considers it wrong - therefore a young man struggling with his sexuality, knowing his church does not approve of his attaction to other boys - may try to supress these feelings and want to enter the priesthood to get away from these temptations, hide from them, be cured from them by devoting his life to serving God.

This may work for a while - but everyone goes through personal crisis and has weak moments. Everyone is human.

I beleive a high percentage of Priests are homosexual to begin with - I am not saying they are active or abusing anyone - I am just saying that their homosexual tendencies may be what drew them to the priesthood to begin with. I am sure there is a lot of shame lumped on them, when they hear how immoral it is thought of, yet they have urges they cannot help.

From your Protestant point of view I think that is very adept. Too confusing for most and not enough answers for others. The Catholic Church has lost so many for not recoginizing anything but what the perfect world would be and not recognizing the differences. Speaking as an ex-catholic.

 

[Casshew]

CP - I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic Girls Schools with scary Nuns :bang: who were ruthless and cruel. Don't get me started on Sister DeSales :sick:

My 2 sisters are still into the Church bigtime...

 

[angelmom]

Catholicism frowns on homosexuality and considers it wrong - therefore a young man struggling with his sexuality, knowing his church does not approve of his attaction to other boys - may try to supress these feelings and want to enter the priesthood to get away from these temptations, hide from them, be cured from them by devoting his life to serving God.

This may work for a while - but everyone goes through personal crisis and has weak moments. Everyone is human.

I beleive a high percentage of Priests are homosexual to begin with - I am not saying they are active or abusing anyone - I am just saying that their homosexual tendencies may be what drew them to the priesthood to begin with. I am sure there is a lot of shame lumped on them, when they hear how immoral it is thought of, yet they have urges they cannot help.

Actually, this is a common misconception about the church. The Catechism of the Catholic church does not say that homosexuality is a sin, the church does not condemn homosexuals, nor is there any belief that this is a lifestyle choice.

In fact, the actual words from the Catechism are respectful of the challenges associated with homosexual orientation and forbids "every sign of unjust discrimination." (2358)

The sin, according to the Catechism, is in the act, but the act is no more or less sinful than any other sex act outside the bonds of marriage, or many other sins which we as human commit daily. While the church does set a goal that we strive towards (such as chastity for those who are unmarried, whether heterosexual or homosexual), it also recognizes that we are fallible, that we are imperfect. Therefore we have the wonderful gift of the sacrament of reconciliation, where the slate is wiped clean and we can try to do better this time.

I am not saying that this is right or wrong. It just bugs me when people make blanket statements about Catholicism that are not true, like the time my friend told me that I believed someone we knew was in hell after he committed suicide. Yes, she actually told me what I believed, based on the fact that I am Catholic. When I read her the statement on suicide in the Catechism, she was dumbfounded, because it had nothing to do with what she believed about the church or what she had been told (by Protestants) all of her life.

 

[Casshew]

Actually, this is a common misconception about the church. The Catechism of the Catholic church does not say that homosexuality is a sin, the church does not condemn homosexuals, nor is there any belief that this is a lifestyle choice.

If you will notice in my post - no where did I say it was a sin. I purposely left out that word.

 

[angelmom]

If you will notice in my post - no where did I say it was a sin. I purposely left out that word.

True. I apologize. The misconception I was referring to is that the church thinks that being gay is immoral, which is not true. The stated belief is that it is NOT a choice and that homosexuals "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity." (2358)

 

[Dark Knight]

From your Protestant point of view I think that is very adept. Too confusing for most and not enough answers for others. The Catholic Church has lost so many for not recoginizing anything but what the perfect world would be and not recognizing the differences. Speaking as an ex-catholic.

And yet while other churches are losing members, the Catholic Church continues to gain more than it loses annually. It isn't easy, but that's the beauty of it to those of us who converted. And we understand there won't always be answers. That's where faith comes in. Plus, the changes from Vatican 2 have made it more "user friendly" of course. Speaking as an ex-protestant. :crazy:

 

[Dark Knight]

Actually, this is a common misconception about the church. The Catechism of the Catholic church does not say that homosexuality is a sin, the church does not condemn homosexuals, nor is there any belief that this is a lifestyle choice.

In fact, the actual words from the Catechism are respectful of the challenges associated with homosexual orientation and forbids "every sign of unjust discrimination." (2358)

The sin, according to the Catechism, is in the act, but the act is no more or less sinful than any other sex act outside the bonds of marriage, or many other sins which we as human commit daily. While the church does set a goal that we strive towards (such as chastity for those who are unmarried, whether heterosexual or homosexual), it also recognizes that we are fallible, that we are imperfect. Therefore we have the wonderful gift of the sacrament of reconciliation, where the slate is wiped clean and we can try to do better this time.

I am not saying that this is right or wrong. It just bugs me when people make blanket statements about Catholicism that are not true, like the time my friend told me that I believed someone we knew was in hell after he committed suicide. Yes, she actually told me what I believed, based on the fact that I am Catholic. When I read her the statement on suicide in the Catechism, she was dumbfounded, because it had nothing to do with what she believed about the church or what she had been told (by Protestants) all of her life.

Correct, homosexuality isn't the sin, only the sex act.

And yes, I come across many protestants who have heard things about the Church that are plain wrong. Many are shocked when I tell them otherwise, lol.