Catholic Church to open its doors to gay priests

  • #81
It just proves that our bias prevents us from truly loving people.We choose to disect everything that is not well prescribed in our society.Then we choose to deny any love for fellow man. And then we wonder why these horrific crimes happen? I don't know the answers but I also know a lot people don't know the questions. The Catholic Church isn't the answer.I have been there and done that.Sorry if that offends anyone but a whole lot of love needs to emanate and not just from the collection plate.
 
  • #82
JBean said:
I have a cousin that was a nun. She ultimately fell in love with a priest and they left their order and got married. They are very happy and living in Italy!
I wish the ThornBirds would have turned out that way....darn it :)
 
  • #83
Tom'sGirl said:
I wish the ThornBirds would have turned out that way....darn it :)
Oh ,I know what you mean! Everytime I see Romeo and Juliet, I hope it will end differently. But, it never does ;)
My cousin and her dh were absolutely meant for one another and we all knew it.
It was sort of like watching a movie, hoping they would get together, but thinking it was just impossible...But they did!:)
 
  • #84
Casshew said:
That's just a rumour!
----------------

Hey Cass,boy you got that one right! ROFLOL.
 
  • #85
Nova said:
Of course. My point was just that there are reasons why outsiders may be confused as to the Catholic Church's attitude toward gay people.

The Catholic Church's Dogma (not an Attitude) on Gays has always been the same it has never changed. Homosexuality is a disorder, does not mean if you are a homosexual you are loved any less by God. You are just as much a Catholic who can recieve all the sacraments off The Church.

Living a homosexual lifestyle however, is forbidden it is living an immoral life therefor living in sin.

Their stance on Homosexuality is and has always been very clear and straight forward. If there is any confusion by outsiders it is of their own making not from the teaching of The Church.
 
  • #86
Nova said:
Thanks, Tis. The policy was widely reported after the ascension of the new Pope. I wonder where reporters got that.

But we're splitting hairs here. The currently announced policy requiring gays to be celibate for three years before becoming priests is evidence enough. Is there an equivalent policy for heterosexuals (or are they just required to be celibate after their vows)? If not, then one might well conclude the Church believes homosexuals to be other than "regular" sinners and needful of special treatment.

There is also no such document as the one currently announced, again that is in the same non existant cabinet as the one banning them all together.
 
  • #87
concernedperson said:
It just proves that our bias prevents us from truly loving people.We choose to disect everything that is not well prescribed in our society.Then we choose to deny any love for fellow man. And then we wonder why these horrific crimes happen? I don't know the answers but I also know a lot people don't know the questions. The Catholic Church isn't the answer.I have been there and done that.Sorry if that offends anyone but a whole lot of love needs to emanate and not just from the collection plate.
I've felt plenty of love from the Church. They've always been there when I needed them. Will they always be? Donno. But no organization is a 100% guarantee, anyways.
 
  • #88
Nova said:
In the first place, DK, that's nonsense. Since according to the Church, gay sex is sinful in or out of marriage, there's no reason to presume gay people are waiting for marriage to have sex. Therefore, gay marriage does not LEAD to sex, but in fact almost always follows it.

But in the second place, I wasn't even thinking of gay marriage. The Church has rather loudly opposed equal civil rights for gays in many jurisidictions. The Church prohibits gay Catholic groups like Dignity from meeting on church property. Which is the Church's right, of course, but it's sometimes hard to see what "love" is offered to us sinners.

My point was just that the line between hating the sin and hating the sinner isn't always clear.

Nova it's not nonsense, just as heterosexuals who are having sex outside of marriage know they according to The Church are living in sin. They cannot recieve the Sacraments, neither can a divorced and remarried Catholic unless the have been granted an annulment. Homosexuals having sex cannot recieve the sacraments.
Now realistically we have no way of knowing how many people who live the lifes described above abide by the laws of The church.

If The Chuch allowed Gay Catholic Groups like Dignity to meet on it's property
then it seems to me THAT would cause confusion. The Catholic Church believes Homosexuality as a lifestyle is wrong, Dignity does not think so.
So if it were to allow it to meet on their property it would be totally contradicting it's teachings and it's Doctrine and it's Dogma. I don't see why that has anything to do with loving the sinner. They are the ones who chose to have the organization. Because The Church did not let them use their property it is kind of like an adult blaming their parent for what went wrong in their life.

I think the line between hating the sin and loving the sinner is very clear.
 
  • #89
TisHerself said:
Nova it's not nonsense, just as heterosexuals who are having sex outside of marriage know they according to The Church are living in sin. They cannot recieve the Sacraments, neither can a divorced and remarried Catholic unless the have been granted an annulment. Homosexuals having sex cannot recieve the sacraments.
Now realistically we have no way of knowing how many people who live the lifes described above abide by the laws of The church.

If The Chuch allowed Gay Catholic Groups like Dignity to meet on it's property
then it seems to me THAT would cause confusion. The Catholic Church believes Homosexuality as a lifestyle is wrong, Dignity does not think so.
So if it were to allow it to meet on their property it would be totally contradicting it's teachings and it's Doctrine and it's Dogma. I don't see why that has anything to do with loving the sinner. They are the ones who chose to have the organization. Because The Church did not let them use their property it is kind of like an adult blaming their parent for what went wrong in their life.

I think the line between hating the sin and loving the sinner is very clear.
Well said! :)
 
  • #90
Dark Knight said:
Correct, homosexuality isn't the sin, only the sex act.

And yes, I come across many protestants who have heard things about the Church that are plain wrong. Many are shocked when I tell them otherwise, lol.

Yes, I am one of them...
I could probably write quite a long post on my
misconceptions, truly...Dk is right, many things that I
(and others, I am sure) about the Catholic Church
were just plain wrong.

I was amazed to discover, amongst other things, the
amount of scripture in their services... the reverence
for it, also... much, much more...

Oh,and the life and faith of Therese Lisieux, a young
nun, SO amazed me!!! Such a depth of wisdom and
love of God... I was surprised that I found more in common
with her words than in the words of many protestants...

love y'all,

Ariel:blowkiss:
 
  • #91
Hi, Ariel7 and Everyone. Sometimes I as a protestant visit with and rather enjoy a very nearby Catholic church, too, for a change. Can find nothing unscriptural in the actual worship service. Don't know about doctrines they've added to the Word, such as praying to Mary and departed saints, since Bible says pray to God in Christ's name. Seems like more authorization in scriptures would be needed to justify that. Protestants supposedly go strictly by the Book, to the best of their ability, and don't teach that the church can change that. The church is only the bride of Christ.

Restricting communion to just members seems inconsistent with accepting protestants' donations, but what the heck, it's just an ecumenical visit. If you're not feeling well and prefer to be anonymous once in a while, you can put something in the Poor Box that I assume will go to the proper disaster victims and nobody gets a big head that you're endorsing them, everything.

Editing to add, to Nova, rights violations happen to all of us. Just "Don't ask, Don't tell"! Confessions should be to God alone, protestants teach, which reminds me, in one of those movies about the Nazi's, one of them was impersonating a priest in the confessional, and this woman who blurted out the whole truth about whatever resistance she'd been involved in got killed. There's a "tribulation" period predicted in the Bible when we're to trust nobody. It's not due to Hitler but someone mixing in, pretending to be one of the messengers of light, temporarily causing a great falling away of the church from strict scripturalit, doing unto others only what you'd want done unto you. He's to be known by opposing/accusing the saints in religion circles, will be revealed playing God, 2nd Thess. 2, before the Second Coming. We're all victims together.

I'm still trying to find out what the arrogant and very unscriptural coalitions by Falwell and others were doing to cause them to have to change their name. Any idea? There were some lawsuits about university grading frauds, and they began to call themselves "Dr." for one thing I guess. Ancient Daniel says they think to establish the vision by elevating themselves, and ancient Jeremiah says they'll be replaced, those that tried to hide this from a Christian woman victim who's somehow violated a lot.

Yesterday, channel surfing, I heard some new speaker claiming "Come boldly to the throne for grace to help in time of need" said no justice, so I googled Promises of Justice in the Bible and there were more than 11,000 PAGES, not verses, of results assuring us every secret thing will be made known, and the woman will become wealthy, a DOVE with wings of silver and gold. I don't know if that means a Nobel Peace Prize or something for figuring out this situation. Seems like she'd need a lot of other opinions in addition to a lot of Biblical research.

We're like God's ant farm, you know, not entitled to make our own laws if they conflict with ones our Maker instituted for us which are not prejudiced but for our own good, healthwise and otherwise. Any ants who rebel wouldn't make the cut, even if we were the ones in charge. We owe Him our very existence, so conforming to His basic rules isn't hard.

"My yoke is easy and my burden is light," we have to accept by faith, I think. I'm awfully vague about clergy's arguments since it wasn't my problem, so that's as far as I go about that. Why try to make God and the world conform to how you'd like things to be, or try to heap guilt on everyone else, standard defense mechanisms, if we really don't feel subconsciously guilty? I dunno, just a thought in case it helps anyone.

We all have to conform. Non-gays have to give up things too.
 
  • #92
ariel7 said:
Yes, I am one of them...
I could probably write quite a long post on my
misconceptions, truly...Dk is right, many things that I
(and others, I am sure) about the Catholic Church
were just plain wrong.

I was amazed to discover, amongst other things, the
amount of scripture in their services... the reverence
for it, also... much, much more...

Oh,and the life and faith of Therese Lisieux, a young
nun, SO amazed me!!! Such a depth of wisdom and
love of God... I was surprised that I found more in common
with her words than in the words of many protestants...

love y'all,

Ariel:blowkiss:

Ariel St Theresa is my favourite Saint, for The Sacrament of Confirmation I picked Theresa as my confirmation name. Have you read The Story of a Soul?
 
  • #93
Nova said:
Well said, Jeana, Maral, and others!

As I said in my previous post, I'm not sure all priest-molesters would be pedophiles in another context. Whether we like it or not (and whether they admit is nor not), males tend to be very flexible in their desires - particularly when their "ideal" objects (women, say) are denied to them.

This is NOT to say, however, that required celibacy "causes" pedophilia. Obviously it does not in the majority of cases, even among priests.

Nova, I agree with you 100%. I would also add that BECAUSE of the celibacy rule, many men with these kinds of sexual "issues" are attracted to the priesthood. If their sexual fantasies include children or other "prohibited" behavior, this would exclude them from engaging in normal heterosexual or homosexual relationships. For these men, the priesthood provides cover and opportunity.
 
  • #94
Eagle1 said:
Don't know about doctrines they've added to the Word, such as praying to Mary and departed saints, since Bible says pray to God in Christ's name. Seems like more authorization in scriptures would be needed to justify that. Protestants supposedly go strictly by the Book, to the best of their ability, and don't teach that the church can change that. The church is only the bride of Christ.
Restricting communion to just members seems inconsistent with accepting protestants' donations,
This is how misconceptions are born, praying to Mary and The Saints is not a Doctrine in The Catholic Church. Why would you need more Authorization in scriptures to justify personal prayer? Why if I am saying personal prayer that is saying that THe Church is teaching me they are changing the Book?
The Catholic Church does not tell me as a Catholic that I must pray to Mary or The Saints.
AS a matter of fact Ariel this will interest you since you like The little Flower
she did not like saying The Rosary she thought it was just way too repetitious and boring, although she Loved Mary. She like all Catholics Revered and Loved Mary as The Mother Of God just as Jesus did. The Fact that we as Catholics have great Adoration for The Blessed Mother and ASK her to pray for us, absolutely confuses me as to why that would even bother Non Catholics.

Your last sentence I'm sorry but I have no clue what that means.
 
  • #95
Pepper said:
Nova, I agree with you 100%. I would also add that BECAUSE of the celibacy rule, many men with these kinds of sexual "issues" are attracted to the priesthood. If their sexual fantasies include children or other "prohibited" behavior, this would exclude them from engaging in normal heterosexual or homosexual relationships. For these men, the priesthood provides cover and opportunity.

Pepper there is at the moment a Synod going on at The Vatican, one of The issues is The Sexual Scandal that Happened in The Church not only in US but in other parts of The World. Your assessment of why that happened is 100% correct. The smoke screens and innuendos of Banned Homosexuals, and this new one of being celibate for 3 yrs before entering semenary they do not exist.
The Sexual Scandal was not a Homosexual one per se and The Church knows that.

I do have to disagree with you on The Celibacy rule thou these guys were attracted to The Priesthood just as others have been attracted to other areas working with children. The reason it got so out of control and so many lives were ruined is because the Bishops and priests who should have stopped it did not.
 
  • #96
TisHerself said:
This is how misconceptions are born, praying to Mary and The Saints is not a Doctrine in The Catholic Church. Why would you need more Authorization in scriptures to justify personal prayer? Why if I am saying personal prayer that is saying that THe Church is teaching me they are changing the Book?
The Catholic Church does not tell me as a Catholic that I must pray to Mary or The Saints.
AS a matter of fact Ariel this will interest you since you like The little Flower
she did not like saying The Rosary she thought it was just way too repetitious and boring, although she Loved Mary. She like all Catholics Revered and Loved Mary as The Mother Of God just as Jesus did. The Fact that we as Catholics have great Adoration for The Blessed Mother and ASK her to pray for us, absolutely confuses me as to why that would even bother Non Catholics.

Your last sentence I'm sorry but I have no clue what that means.
Correct. The ask THEM to pray for US. We have to "pray" to them since they are in heaven, but it is no different than asking someone still alive to pray for us. Only God and Jesus can answer the prayer, itself.
 
  • #97
TisHerself said:
The reason it got so out of control and so many lives were ruined is because the Bishops and priests who should have stopped it did not.


ABSOLUTELY.
 
  • #98
TisHerself said:
Ariel St Theresa is my favourite Saint, for The Sacrament of Confirmation I picked Theresa as my confirmation name. Have you read The Story of a Soul?

:) Thanks for sharing that!
No, I haven't...though I do believe that I read
some excerpts online...

with love,

Ariel:blowkiss:
 
  • #99
Dark Knight said:
Correct. The ask THEM to pray for US. We have to "pray" to them since they are in heaven, but it is no different than asking someone still alive to pray for us. Only God and Jesus can answer the prayer, itself.

Yes, my favorite way to explain this to my Methodist in-laws is to ask them whom they'd call in a crisis. Of course, they say family and friends, the minister, etc. I ask, "Would you ask people to pray for you?" and of course the answer is yes. Then I say, "If you were in a crisis and felt you were in need of prayer, whom would you call first? The neighbor you barely know who never goes to church? The friend who you see occasionally who goes sometimes, or the close friends on your prayer chain who go regularly?" Obviously, they'd call those they are closest to and whom they know have an active prayer life first. You might eventually get around to asking ALL of those people to pray for you, but you'll call some sooner than others.

My logic is, by asking The Blessed Mother and the saints to pray for me, I'm going even higher up. If I believe God will listen to the prayers of the faithful, and ask them first to pray for me in times of great distress, why wouldn't I first ask His mother to pray for me? Would He not listen to her prayers? Would He not hear her cries on my behalf? I still pray to God and Jesus every day, but it brings me great comfort to know that the Virgin Mother is praying for me as well, asking her Son to watch over and guide me.

She knows more than anyone the trials of motherhood, she who feared for her child's life and fled to Egypt to save him, she who lost him in a crowd and felt her heart beat with panic until - there! - I'm sure the urge to hug Him and shake Him intermingled. She raised Him from a tiny baby and watched Him become a man, with His own life and mission. She stood at the foot of the cross and watched Him suffer and die, and a part of her died that day too, I'm certain. Who better knows the joys and pains and worries and fatigue of motherhood? Who better to intercede with her Son on my behalf?

I know there are many differences among the different denominations, but this one I do not understand. There was a great article in TIME this past spring about the Protestants and Mary (although it did make it sound like they "discovered" her! :doh: ). I wonder if I can find it.

Sorry, this thread started out being about gay priests...I guess I got a little OT. :blushing:
 
  • #100
TisHerself said:
Pepper there is at the moment a Synod going on at The Vatican, one of The issues is The Sexual Scandal that Happened in The Church not only in US but in other parts of The World. Your assessment of why that happened is 100% correct. The smoke screens and innuendos of Banned Homosexuals, and this new one of being celibate for 3 yrs before entering semenary they do not exist.
The Sexual Scandal was not a Homosexual one per se and The Church knows that.

I do have to disagree with you on The Celibacy rule thou these guys were attracted to The Priesthood just as others have been attracted to other areas working with children. The reason it got so out of control and so many lives were ruined is because the Bishops and priests who should have stopped it did not.

Oh believe me, I'm not excusing the bishops and priests in the least. You are absolutely correct that those in authority turned a blind eye to what was going on.

However, I still believe that the celibacy rule contributes in part to the sex scandal for the reasons Nova gave.

I mean, if you want to get technical about it, the Catholic Church teaches that all sexual activity outside of marriage is a sin - including masterbation. Complete denial of one's sexual being is as impossible for some people as self-imposed suicide by starvation. I believe, as do many, that a number of the priests involved in the abuse of children would not have done so if their sexuality had not been suppressed by celibacy. Obviously there are many factors, and not a single one covers all cases. Some nasty pedophiles were drawn to the priesthood because of the access to their potential victims - just like some scout leaders, playground supervisors, etc...

And while the Church has always technically opposed and deemed as sinful, sexual activity outside of marriage, we all know that many of the early Popes and priests engaged in sex acts of all types - homosexual, animal, pedophile, group, etc..... Check out Pope Benedict IX(1032 to 1044) and Pope Alexander VI (1492 to 1503).

I would very much like to see the Church abolish this man-made celibacy rule for priests.

Clerical celibacy was not enacted until 1074 when Pope Gregory VII wanted to increase the power of the papacy. For reasons of politics and power, he abolished clerical marriage. But prior to that time priests, bishops, cardinals and popes were all permitted to be married.
 

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