Catholic Church to open its doors to gay priests

[sandraladeda]

Nova, I agree with you 100%. I would also add that BECAUSE of the celibacy rule, many men with these kinds of sexual "issues" are attracted to the priesthood. If their sexual fantasies include children or other "prohibited" behavior, this would exclude them from engaging in normal heterosexual or homosexual relationships. For these men, the priesthood provides cover and opportunity.

I completely disagree with this assertion that the celibacy rule draws in men with sexual "issues" into the priesthood. If I felt my sexual urges fell outside of the mainstream, I can't think of anywhere I would feel LESS inclined to gravitate towards than an environment where my inclinations would be completely forbidden.

Furthermore, the entire seminary experience could not and would not be endured, it would require an incredible effort to "fake" ones way through on such a false and shaky motivation as hiding from one's sexual urges. Serving in the priesthood is a calling, and a very honorable one. You may not comprehend the motivation to choose a celibate life, but it is not for everyone. It takes a very special person with a particular devotion and selflessness to choose this vocation.

I have known many Catholic priests in my lifetime, and several have made it clear that they are human, and are subject to attractions from time to time, just as I have, as a married person, felt attractions to other men from time to time. I remember a priest telling me that he had a close working relationship with a woman, and they began to feel an attraction for one another. He told me that, just as a married person must honor their vows, so must a priest, and as such, he and his co-worker discussed their friendship and acknowledged that it would not and could not ever be pursued. They got past it.

 

[Casshew]

I can't think of anywhere I would feel LESS inclined to gravitate towards than an environment where my inclinations would be completely forbidden.

but thats the whole point. They feel guilty about their urges and want to stop them, or cure them or supress them... whatever, so they go into the church where it is forbiddon.

 

[TisHerself]

but thats the whole point. They feel guilty about their urges and want to stop them, or cure them or supress them... whatever, so they go into the church where it is forbiddon.

That is just so not true and so degrading to Homosexuals to even think and believe that. They are not sub human, they are not beneath Heterosexuals.They do not have to enter The Priesthood to stop/supress their urges. Besides the fact Homosexual Priests are not the big problem in The Church so I really think they are getting a bumb rap. JMHO considering only about a sixth of Catholic Priests in the US are Gay.

Entering The priesthood does not take away temptations one is still living in the real world. If because a person were Gay and decided to enter to supress his urges it is not going to work. The Semenary is a long time and if they are there for that one reason before they take their vows they are long gone.

 

[TisHerself]

However, I still believe that the celibacy rule contributes in part to the sex scandal for the reasons Nova gave.

I mean, if you want to get technical about it, the Catholic Church teaches that all sexual activity outside of marriage is a sin - including masterbation. Complete denial of one's sexual being is as impossible for some people as self-imposed suicide by starvation. I believe, as do many, that a number of the priests involved in the abuse of children would not have done so if their sexuality had not been suppressed by celibacy.

Celibacy is a choice anyone entering The Priesthood knows this, it is not forced on them. If you are choosing to become a Priest then you are choosing celibacy that is no surprise.
The Church does not force anyone to become a Priest, it is a personal choice,
before someone does become a Priest there is 5 yrs of Seminary.
During this 5yrs of Seminary knowing when you take your final Vows you will now take a Vow of Celibacy.
The calling to The Priesthood is a special calling by God to very Special young men whose vow of remaining Celibate is given over into God's hands. They therefor have no problem keeping that Vow.
So no I do not agree with you that the child predators sexuality were supressed by Celibacy. Celibacy had nothing to do with what they did they were quite Simply Predators.

 

[Mabel]

That is just so not true and so degrading to Homosexuals to even think and believe that. They are not sub human, they are not beneath Heterosexuals.They do not have to enter The Priesthood to stop/supress their urges. Besides the fact Homosexual Priests are not the big problem in The Church so I really think they are getting a bumb rap. JMHO considering only about a sixth of Catholic Priests in the US are Gay.

Entering The priesthood does not take away temptations one is still living in the real world. If because a person were Gay and decided to enter to supress his urges it is not going to work. The Semenary is a long time and if they are there for that one reason before they take their vows they are long gone.

I don't see how it's degrading to suggest that some homosexuals are ashamed or afraid of their urges and attempt to supress them. It's a fact. Certainly it's not calling anyone sub human. How many men attempt to live heterosexual lifestyles only to come out at some point after many years of marriage or even after having children? My ex-husband had (unbeknownst to me) a 23 year relationship with a man before we met. He broke it off when we were married and soon after became very involved with the church. I found out later that he felt the church gave him the strength to control his urges. Of course, IMO, he's still as gay as ever, but he's trying to, in his words, "fight the habit". He's a very unhappy person and always will be until he accepts himself for who he really is.

 

[Casshew]

That is just so not true and so degrading to Homosexuals to even think and believe that.

I am not degrading anyone :slap:

I am saying that a young person, with homosexual urges may feel shame because what his Church tells him is wrong and may turn to the church, devote his life there to try and stop how he is feeling.

 

[TisHerself]

I am not degrading anyone :slap:

I am saying that a young person, with homosexual urges may feel shame because what his Church tells him is wrong and may turn to the church, devote his life there to try and stop how he is feeling.

Ok then I am misunderstanding what you are saying :blushing: sorry
You are misunderstanding The Priesthood, and young Catholic Homosexuals.
All young men who are baptised Catholic there may come a time in their lives when some of them feel a calling to enter The Priesthood.
With some of them the calling will continue to get stronger and stronger, after talking with Their Priest they may decide to Enter A Seminary.
From there some will continue on and become Priests some will not, now some of them will be Gay some of them will be Straight.
A Homosexual Youth is not entering The Priesthood in hopes of stopping how he feels. The reason I am having a hard time with this description of them is that it makes them sound like they have no mind of their own.
If a Priest happens to be a Homosexual then IMHO He Just wanted to be a Priest.

 

[TisHerself]

I don't see how it's degrading to suggest that some homosexuals are ashamed or afraid of their urges and attempt to supress them.

Mabel That's not what I said, and it is taken totally out of context, and I was not speaking about Homosexuals in General.
I was speaking about Homosexuals versus Heterosexuals in The Priesthood they both have sexual urges. They are all human so to say that Homosexuals only enter to supress their urges is to say they are less than. Why can't they just enter The Priesthood because they want to be Priests?

 

[Nova]

The Catholic Church's Dogma (not an Attitude) on Gays has always been the same it has never changed. Homosexuality is a disorder, does not mean if you are a homosexual you are loved any less by God. You are just as much a Catholic who can recieve all the sacraments off The Church.

Living a homosexual lifestyle however, is forbidden it is living an immoral life therefor living in sin.

Their stance on Homosexuality is and has always been very clear and straight forward. If there is any confusion by outsiders it is of their own making not from the teaching of The Church.

I'm sorry, Tis, but that's ridiculous. You sound like a defense attorney. Yes, I have already acknowledged the "letter of the law" according to the Church. But there are words and there are deeds.

It isn't just "outsiders" who confuse hatred for the supposed "sin" and hatred for the sinner. Plenty of your clergy confuse the two as well.

ETA, we are talking about Church policies here. But I do want to add that in my personal experience, the vast majority of Catholics - whatever their views on the "sin" - treat my partner and I and our relationship with great respect and even affection. From your comments here, Tis, I imagine you do the same with gays you know.

 

[Nova]

There is also no such document as the one currently announced, again that is in the same non existant cabinet as the one banning them all together.

Fair enough. But I don't have access to Vatican vaults. I can only respond to what is reported.

 

[Nova]

Nova it's not nonsense, just as heterosexuals who are having sex outside of marriage know they according to The Church are living in sin. They cannot recieve the Sacraments, neither can a divorced and remarried Catholic unless the have been granted an annulment. Homosexuals having sex cannot recieve the sacraments.
Now realistically we have no way of knowing how many people who live the lifes described above abide by the laws of The church.

If The Chuch allowed Gay Catholic Groups like Dignity to meet on it's property
then it seems to me THAT would cause confusion. The Catholic Church believes Homosexuality as a lifestyle is wrong, Dignity does not think so.
So if it were to allow it to meet on their property it would be totally contradicting it's teachings and it's Doctrine and it's Dogma. I don't see why that has anything to do with loving the sinner. They are the ones who chose to have the organization. Because The Church did not let them use their property it is kind of like an adult blaming their parent for what went wrong in their life.

I think the line between hating the sin and loving the sinner is very clear.

Again, you are absolutely right in theory, that homosexual sex is held to be the same as all non-procreative sex outside marriage. But there's theory and there's practice. Your "average" homosexual and your "average" adulterer, say, much less a mere masterbator, have NOT been treated the same by the church - at least not since the 12th century.

 

[Nova]

This is how misconceptions are born, praying to Mary and The Saints is not a Doctrine in The Catholic Church. Why would you need more Authorization in scriptures to justify personal prayer? Why if I am saying personal prayer that is saying that THe Church is teaching me they are changing the Book?
The Catholic Church does not tell me as a Catholic that I must pray to Mary or The Saints.
AS a matter of fact Ariel this will interest you since you like The little Flower
she did not like saying The Rosary she thought it was just way too repetitious and boring, although she Loved Mary. She like all Catholics Revered and Loved Mary as The Mother Of God just as Jesus did. The Fact that we as Catholics have great Adoration for The Blessed Mother and ASK her to pray for us, absolutely confuses me as to why that would even bother Non Catholics.

Your last sentence I'm sorry but I have no clue what that means.

Veneration of the Blessed Mother is one of the greatest aspects of the Catholic Church. Love and admiration for the Mother of God has inspired much good in this world, I think.

Tis, as a former Protestant, I can tell you many Protestant denominations define themselves in whole or in part in opposition to supposed Catholic idolatry (which includes not only veneration of saints, but use of religious statues). It all seems pretty silly to me now, but I remember when that opposition seemed terribly important.

 

[Nova]

The Sexual Scandal was not a Homosexual one per se and The Church knows that.

I hope you are right, Tis. That isn't what has been reported in the mainstream press, but I am certainly prepared to believe the press has been wrong.

 

[Nova]

I completely disagree with this assertion that the celibacy rule draws in men with sexual "issues" into the priesthood. If I felt my sexual urges fell outside of the mainstream, I can't think of anywhere I would feel LESS inclined to gravitate towards than an environment where my inclinations would be completely forbidden.

Furthermore, the entire seminary experience could not and would not be endured, it would require an incredible effort to "fake" ones way through on such a false and shaky motivation as hiding from one's sexual urges. Serving in the priesthood is a calling, and a very honorable one. You may not comprehend the motivation to choose a celibate life, but it is not for everyone. It takes a very special person with a particular devotion and selflessness to choose this vocation.

I have known many Catholic priests in my lifetime, and several have made it clear that they are human, and are subject to attractions from time to time, just as I have, as a married person, felt attractions to other men from time to time. I remember a priest telling me that he had a close working relationship with a woman, and they began to feel an attraction for one another. He told me that, just as a married person must honor their vows, so must a priest, and as such, he and his co-worker discussed their friendship and acknowledged that it would not and could not ever be pursued. They got past it.

Sandra, you can find more than a few accounts of priests who say they were drawn to the priesthood because they thought it would save them from "unnatural" desires. But we'll agree that even these probably comprise no more than a small percentage of priests.

Do I think that abolishing the celibacy requirement would reduce the molestation of children by priests? Yes, though to what extent I can't say. However, the same results and even better can be achieved by quickly eliminating molesters from the priesthood - something I hope and pray the Church will do in the future.

So I don't see celibacy per se as the problem.

What I was trying to say many posts ago was that we can't assume adult male priests who molested teens were necessarily homosexual, because the fact is at least some adult male priests simply had greater access to male teens than to other potential partners (including female teens and adult females). This suggests at least some of the molestations were "situational" and therefore analogous to male/male sex in prison, the army, all-male schools, etc., and not indicative of a lifelong "homosexual" orientation.

But as I said above, such priests can be weeded out without abolishing celibacy.

 

[Nova]

That is just so not true and so degrading to Homosexuals to even think and believe that. They are not sub human, they are not beneath Heterosexuals.They do not have to enter The Priesthood to stop/supress their urges. Besides the fact Homosexual Priests are not the big problem in The Church so I really think they are getting a bumb rap. JMHO considering only about a sixth of Catholic Priests in the US are Gay.

Entering The priesthood does not take away temptations one is still living in the real world. If because a person were Gay and decided to enter to supress his urges it is not going to work. The Semenary is a long time and if they are there for that one reason before they take their vows they are long gone.

Tis, I've never seen that statistic before, but if one sixth of U.S. priests are homosexual, that's a very significant number - two to three or more times the percentage of homosexuals in the population at large. To what do you attribute that? (I'll agree it isn't so simple as gays simply using the priesthood to suppress their sexuality.)

 

[sandraladeda]

If a Priest happens to be a Homosexual then IMHO He Just wanted to be a Priest.

I totally agree. Also, bringing this back to comments earlier in this thread, that very same homosexual priest would be no greater risk to abuse small boys than the average heterosexual priest.

Choosing to take a vow of celibacy does not, imho, lead one to suddenly snap one day and abuse the nearest person, altar boy or otherwise.

 

[Nova]

Ok then I am misunderstanding what you are saying :blushing: sorry
You are misunderstanding The Priesthood, and young Catholic Homosexuals.
All young men who are baptised Catholic there may come a time in their lives when some of them feel a calling to enter The Priesthood.
With some of them the calling will continue to get stronger and stronger, after talking with Their Priest they may decide to Enter A Seminary.
From there some will continue on and become Priests some will not, now some of them will be Gay some of them will be Straight.
A Homosexual Youth is not entering The Priesthood in hopes of stopping how he feels. The reason I am having a hard time with this description of them is that it makes them sound like they have no mind of their own.
If a Priest happens to be a Homosexual then IMHO He Just wanted to be a Priest.

As I said above, Tis, there are any number of anecdotal accounts by priests (often ex-priests) who say they took their vows as part of their attempt to suppress their sexual urges. (Which doesn't mean they didn't also feel a sincere calling.)

Unfortunately, many young homosexual men - even today - feel their only hope for a "normal" life, within the approved confines of their community, lies in suppressing their innate sexual desires. To many families in many communities (particularly before recently), there were only two choices for a "normal" life - marriage and children or the priesthood. It isn't hard to see how for a decent and devout homosexual Catholic, the priesthood seems the more honest choice.

 

[sandraladeda]

What I was trying to say many posts ago was that we can't assume adult male priests who molested teens were necessarily homosexual, because the fact is at least some adult male priests simply had greater access to male teens than to other potential partners (including female teens and adult females). This suggests at least some of the molestations were "situational" and therefore analogous to male/male sex in prison, the army, all male schools, etc., and not indicative a lifelong "homosexual" orientation.

But as I said above, such priests can be weeded out without abolishing celibacy.

The difference I see is that when a young man chooses the priesthood, he also chooses celibacy. In prison, this is not the case. One could argue that one who enlists in the army, or attends an all-male school has not fully contemplated, or indeed chosen, celibacy.

 

[Nova]

The difference I see is that when a young man chooses the priesthood, he also chooses celibacy. In prison, this is not the case. One could argue that one who enlists in the army, or attends an all-male school has not fully contemplated, or indeed chosen, celibacy.

The fact of "choice" may very well make sexual activity less common than in other all-male institutions. I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me.

But we can't pretend that celibacy is a universal achievement among priests. As I'm sure you know, the Church has wrestled with the problem for some time and has maintained large retreats for the counseling of priests who "stray." (This is not to say most such priests were molesting children.) I know about these retreats because men who went there told me.

 

[sandraladeda]

The fact of "choice" may very well make sexual activity less common than in other all-male institutions. I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me.

But we can't pretend that celibacy is a universal achievement among priests. As I'm sure you know, the Church has wrestled with the problem for some time and has maintained large retreats for the counseling of priests who "stray." (This is not to say most such priests were molesting children.) I know about these retreats because men who went there told me.

I correspond regularly with just such a priest, who was "put out to pasture" so to speak, as he was a little too attracted to women. I guess celibacy was tougher on him than some of his fellow priests. It is a shame, as he was an amazing priest, very well-loved and respected. His vocation is now more oriented towards writing and educating, which is good in some ways. But he was a brilliant homilist, and touched our hearts constantly. Losing him was a great blow. In his case, I believe he would have been every bit as effective had he been able to marry.