Catholic Church to open its doors to gay priests

[sandraladeda]

The motion is either the laws of physics, or God - chose the one you believe. My point is just that both points of view make the universe a wonderful place.

I believe that God created the law of physics.

Reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw recently.

"I believe in the Big Bang Theory - God commanded it and BANG! It happened!"

 

[ariel7]

Hello y'all,

I'm jumping in a wee bit late to this thread; however as an ex-atheist,
I really felt that I needed to comment.

Dk stated:

Excellent point!!!! I meant on earth, of course, hehe. But a great point! Actually, life would seem awfully pathetic as an athiest. I cannot imagine not feeling the Presence of God and Jesus daily. It would be pretty empty. But that doesn't make it an easier path to take. Ask Christ how weak-minded He was facing His crucifixion.

And I wholeheartedly concur....

It IS empty--in fact, WORSE than empty...for any atheist willing to follow
their beliefs to the logical conclusions...
To believe that there is none to answer to is also to believe that there is
nowhere to turn... to believe that there is no hell/no heaven means that
death is truly the end....that one is destined merely to be recycled...
live, die, decompose... to believe that we are merely accidents...byproducts
of blind chance...mere complex chemical reactions....means there is
no soul......(gosh, how can we even trust our thoughts if this were so?)
to believe that there is no ultimate lawgiver means truly that
there is NO right and no wrong... how dare I as an atheist criticize
ANYONE.. (Yep, I thought that way...) There are many more things that
I could say, but lol, I guess y'all can see where I stand.

My atheism (in large part) nearly led me to take my own life when I was
20 (almost 21), but that is a very long story.

Knowing God now, I must say that even on my very lowest days...
oh, and I do have plenty of them, especially this past summer... I cannot
imagine life without Him... the darkest days are bright compared to
my life back then.

Still, I would hardly call life as a Christian easy,lol.
It is easier to hate...easier to be selfish... easier to take the low
road...easier to fret and worry rather than pray and trust.
Much easier at times.

Well, I guess this is getting long enough...

with much love,

Ariel:blowkiss:

 

[ariel7]

I believe that God created the law of physics.

Reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw recently.

"I believe in the Big Bang Theory - God commanded it and BANG! It happened!"

I'm right with ya on that one Sandra!!

In fact, I believe that laws necessitate a lawgiver and that
the wonderful complexity of this universe is absolutely not the
chance byproduct of a mindless explosion of essentially nothing.
The laws themselves militate against such an idea, really.

Anyways,lol, I don't quite wanna hijack the thread.

love to all,

Ariel:blowkiss:

 

[ariel7]

ScorpioGal, the Catholic Church does not consider a woman to be less than a man. Role differentiation is not inequality.

Excellent point!!!!

The Bible speaks to the fact, as Eagle quoted, that in Christ there is
no male/no female (no jew/greek, bond/free, etc. etc.). This speaks
to our worth, our value in God's sight..(and it is infinite )No one
group is more precious to Him than another.

God is no misogynist. If He were, well, He'd not be
good,lol. Furthermore, when Jesus rose again...to whom did He first
appear? Women! Yet, in that culture, their testimony was
worthless! NOT to Him!!!

The teaching that men were to handle
the leadership of the church is NOT because we are somehow inferior...
Not because our service is lesser--some of the greatest Christians that
I know are women.

Methinks I would not like to be in a position of leadership, really...for Scripture
teaches that they shall be judged more harshly.
Someday indeed men shall have to answer for how they
led His church...was it in the spirit of a servant and with love or was it in a
cruel way... bent on wielding their "power" over all those "below"
them or using their position in some other selfish way? A servant-leader does not see those in his care as below him nor as a means to
to an end.

DK mentioned Christ facing crucifixion... there is no more
painful and humiliating way that I can think of dying...
Yet,He didn't HAVE to die... He said
that no man took His life from Him, but that He would lay it
down (and take it up again) on His own...

He did this not to make a "religion" in which men lorded it over women..
as though we were mere worthless vassals...
and hated everyone opposed to it and its teachings...not to make
holier than though folks who would turn up their noses at everyone
save for those that believed exactly as they do... but
because of LOVE...love for US.

Greater love hath no man than this...
that a man lay down his life for his friends... Well, He lay down his
life for His enemies...that they might be friends of God. Such love!

with love,

Ariel:blowkiss:

 

[concernedperson]

I am interested in why someone wants to know who believes in God?

Believe maybe it was Jeana who posed the question.

I am spiritual in everyway. My god spends time loving people and hopefully, me too. I need to know that there is something more importent and that my life is not insignificant. Religious organizations have never really been there for me nor do I believe that they are an in all for everyone. I can see people for who they are and I believe that these spirits define us as some kind of extra human experience. I know that I will be ridiculed for this but it is what I believe.

 

[angelmom]

Yep, even atheists can be the intolerant ones - anyone can, and usually seems to become the intolerant ones when they get enough power. Although, at the least, a forced conversion to atheism doesn't involve wasting an hour Sunday mornings doing Catholic calinesthetics and donating money.

In all seriousness - this all is exactly what our founding fathers experienced that made them so determined to keep religion out of government - as bad as it can be, being in the minority here, it's far worse places where the religion becomes part of the government. Imagine being where you are, and Catholic, if the people around you had the power to make laws based on your religion...


Discrimination is never that far away - Kennedy wasn't that long ago - remember all the debate about letting a Catholic be president? Majority religions can become minority, new religions sprout up - a secular government is the best way to keep us all safe, keep the discrimination to a mostly harmless level.

So true. My first teaching job was at a "Christian" school. The pastor's goal - one he spoke and wrote about - was to have all of the teachers be church members. Of course, it wasn't possible at first. There just wasn't enough interest to work for that kind of pay and no benefits. But his strategy involved forcing all staff (including two Hindu women who taught the toddlers, who had helped start the preschool and had worked at the church longer than him!) to sign a statement of faith that said we believed in only one god. It caused a huge uproar, since it wasn't part of how we were hired but a new policy forced on current staff. The next part of his plan was to eliminate all of the Catholic staff (apparently the Church started by Christ Himself isn't good enough for a "Christian" school!!! :furious: ). Eventually he hoped to have all staff be members of their own denomination and then only church members.

I'll never forget what an eye opener that experience was. I never really felt threatened because I wasn't the primary breadwinner (thank God!), and I knew I could be hired elsewhere. But it gave me a tiny taste of what that sort of religious intolerance and control might be like. *Shudder.* The man still gives me the heeby jeebies.

OT but not totally...I'm reading The Queen's Fool by Phillippa Gregory and it's all about Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth and the battle between the Catholic and Anglican churches. It is unbelievable reading about the horrors committed in the name of both faiths and in the attempt to control England and all of Europe really. The narrator is actually a Jewish girl whose mother was burned at the stake in Spain, and the author captures the emotions of devotion and fear in a breathtaking beauty.

 

[TisHerself]

Let me just take half a second while we're waiting for that answer to explain to TisHerself that, oops, I didn't mean the Catholic church but the world in general

Eagle I wasn't referring to you when I answered, I knew what you meant.

 

[TisHerself]

Would you change your religion because you were lonely? Change to the majority view and ignore what you believed to be true because it was inconvenient?

I believe just as much as you do in my view of the universe, it's not something I could see changing just because other people disagree - would you change religions if you lived in Utah and everyone around you was Mormon, and you were lonely?

No I wouldn't (I know you weren't speaking to me) but I do understand what you are saying.

 

[TisHerself]

So true. My first teaching job was at a "Christian" school. The pastor's goal - one he spoke and wrote about - was to have all of the teachers be church members. Of course, it wasn't possible at first. There just wasn't enough interest to work for that kind of pay and no benefits. But his strategy involved forcing all staff (including two Hindu women who taught the toddlers, who had helped start the preschool and had worked at the church longer than him!) to sign a statement of faith that said we believed in only one god. It caused a huge uproar, since it wasn't part of how we were hired but a new policy forced on current staff. The next part of his plan was to eliminate all of the Catholic staff (apparently the Church started by Christ Himself isn't good enough for a "Christian" school!!! :furious: ). Eventually he hoped to have all staff be members of their own denomination and then only church members.

I'll never forget what an eye opener that experience was. I never really felt threatened because I wasn't the primary breadwinner (thank God!), and I knew I could be hired elsewhere. But it gave me a tiny taste of what that sort of religious intolerance and control might be like. *Shudder.* The man still gives me the heeby jeebies.

OT but not totally...I'm reading The Queen's Fool by Phillippa Gregory and it's all about Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth and the battle between the Catholic and Anglican churches. It is unbelievable reading about the horrors committed in the name of both faiths and in the attempt to control England and all of Europe really. The narrator is actually a Jewish girl whose mother was burned at the stake in Spain, and the author captures the emotions of devotion and fear in a breathtaking beauty.

That is a great book.

 

[Nova]

The Church is not confused, the only confusion that exists is in the denial that one continues to remain in.

I don't know what "denial" you mean. You (and I) have quite accurately articulated the doctrine of the church.

But there is word and there is deed. And there is history, which is well documented. Anyone still in denial should read the late Yale historian, John Boswell. For starters.

 

[Casshew]

Gay Toronto priest outs himself on TV

"I'm a Roman Catholic priest and I'm gay." With that confession, 63-year-old Karl Clemens became the first priest in Canada to openly declare his homosexuality.

Clemens - a priest for 33 years who retired from the Kingston diocese seven years ago - now lives in Toronto, calling Church Street in the city's gay village his parish.

"I don't have a parish," Clemens told 360 Vision in a documentary that aired last night on VisionTV. "My parish is the street - the highways, the byways, the bars."

Clemens, who wears a priest's collar and says mass every day in his living room, said he is celibate.
"If I were any more celibate, I don't know that I'd be alive," Clemens said, recalling a joke he once told a bishop.

The Vatican calls homosexuals "intrinsically disordered," but it appears poised to open the door to gay priests.

A recently leaked Vatican document revealed the Catholic church is prepared to allow gay men into seminaries if they've been celibate for three years.

Clemens estimated "many" priests are gay - as many as half.

"I don't think that would be overstating it," he said.

The church has already warned Clemens, the documentary said. A letter from Kingston Archbishop Anthony Meagher cautioned Clemens about his "gay lifestyle" because "people in the neighbourhood" referred to the priest's roommate as his lover.

Clemens said he is a caregiver to the terminally ill man.


http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/2005/10/21/1272415-sun.html

 

[Nova]

Obviously not TOO solid. :crazy: They're simply following Christ's example, in His omnipotence, regarding church leaders.

Christ's example - but only according to the gospels chosen by (male) church leaders. Hmmm...

 

[Nova]

Being of a minority religion is difficult. Being of a majority religion is oh so incredibly easy; and especially much easier than being an atheist, which for some reason both majority and minority religions consider a very threatening stance, and a common enemy.

Sorry, but I can't even tell most people what I am, because I've already gone through finding out what people think of atheists. Even having known you for years, known what type of person you are (I'm quite ethical, honest, and follow more of the rules than many religious people) - a friend or coworker finds out you are atheist, and the most insulting beliefs are revealled; that atheists have no ethics nor morals; that your life is empty; that you see the world as a base animalistic place; that you can't possibly have any real goals in your life; etc. And that's here where we've supposedly got the freedom to believe as we wish. In other times, other places, being an atheist lead to real penalties ranging from mere job discrimination to torture and death.

Religious intolerance is lousy for anyone not of the majority religion - it doesn't matter whether you are of a minority religion, or an agnostic or atheist. But a difference - there's nowhere where you can be in the majority as an atheist.

Just for the record, Details, there are some of us deists who don't believe God is so insecure that S/He will punish you for not believing. And history is full of highly moral atheists and highly IMmoral and Amoral "true" believers.

 

[Nova]

I believe that God created the law of physics.

Reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw recently.

"I believe in the Big Bang Theory - God commanded it and BANG! It happened!"

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Maral]

Just for the record, Details, there are some of us deists who don't believe God is so insecure that S/He will punish you for not believing. And history is full of highly moral atheists and highly IMmoral and Amoral "true" believers.

Amen, Nova!

 

[TisHerself]

I don't know what "denial" you mean. You (and I) have quite accurately articulated the doctrine of the church.

But there is word and there is deed. And there is history, which is well documented. Anyone still in denial should read the late Yale historian, John Boswell. For starters.

I am speaking about the denial of ones who think it is their right to treat Homosexuals badly and sit in judgement of them. Sorry didn't mean to make that sound confusing after I read it it confused even me.

 

[Nova]

Amen, Nova!

I would add that I try to be a moral person because that's the sort of person I want to be, and because I believe everyone benefits when we try to treat one another fairly.

 

[Nova]

I am speaking about the denial of ones who think it is their right to treat Homosexuals badly and sit in judgement of them. Sorry didn't mean to make that sound confusing after I read it it confused even me.

Sorry, Tis, I did misunderstand. Please ignore my snarky response. I should have known better from your other posts. :blushing:

 

[TisHerself]

There is no such document as a recently leaked one saying Homosexuals would have to be celebate for 3 yrs before they could enter the Seminary. That would be an absolute impossiblity, what are they going to do follow these guys around non stop for three years?
The Synod that just finished in The Vatican that no one knows at the moment of the results will tell us what is going to happen.

 

[Casshew]

what are they going to do follow these guys around non stop for three years?

Why would they have to follow them? can they not expect them to be honest about their celibacy? Tell the truth about it?