Cause of Death and Time of Death *MERGED* (Warning: Contains Graphic Content!)

[Kamille]

The Indian Graves site still disturbs me and I think you may be right about EB being responsible for the search there. I had not thought of the possibility that the evidence Dubbs "retrieved" coming from there.

ETA I have just checked the PDF and it is not specified where evidence was "retreived" from so you may very well be right. This would explain that search area and why LE went there.

I also recall reading that LE were in that area "out of the media spotlight" about a week or two prior to the search that was reported in MSM. The neighbours said they had been there on and off for about two weeks prior to that search. MSM indicated that they may have found something there.

Community residents said they’ve seen police in the area off and on for about two weeks. People often dump trash in the rugged area along Indian Grave Road, which makes the area similar to past search sites.

Police found something during Tuesday’s search that they are taking a closer look at, but they would not say what it was.

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/25686699/detail.html

The most recent search took place on Indian Grave Road in Caldwell County, a heavily wooded area with a narrow dirt road.

Crews searched it before but came back for another look with more people, covering more ground.

http://www.wcnc.com/news/One-month-later-Zahra-Baker-case-a-mystery-106971784.html

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I also recall reading that LE were in that area "out of the media spotlight" about a week or two prior to the search that was reported in MSM. The neighbours said they had been there on and off for about two weeks prior to that search. MSM indicated that they may have found something there.

Community residents said they’ve seen police in the area off and on for about two weeks. People often dump trash in the rugged area along Indian Grave Road, which makes the area similar to past search sites.

Police found something during Tuesday’s search that they are taking a closer look at, but they would not say what it was.

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/25686699/detail.html

The most recent search took place on Indian Grave Road in Caldwell County, a heavily wooded area with a narrow dirt road.

Crews searched it before but came back for another look with more people, covering more ground.

http://www.wcnc.com/news/One-month-later-Zahra-Baker-case-a-mystery-106971784.html

I guess mt reading comprehension isn't all that great today. :waitasec:

The article is saying that they found something off Indian Grave Rd.?

 

[tlcya]

sounds/reads as if that is observation of reporter. As in LE looked as if they were showing interest in something during the search but declined to comment on it. May be related to Zahra, may be something LE was observed to have looked at or inspected overlong.


MOO

 

[Kamille]

sounds/reads as if that is observation of reporter. As in LE looked as if they were showing interest in something during the search but declined to comment on it. May be related to Zahra, may be something LE was observed to have looked at or inspected overlong.


MOO

That's just it with MSM. Did they pick something up and put it in an evidence bag to take it with them to take a closer look back at a lab?

How can any respectable news reporter drop the ball like that and not follow through a simple sentence? How hard would that be? :banghead:

 

[tlcya]

ITA frustrating.

Didthey look at something overlong and when questioned say no comment? or did they bag something up, label it and take it with them when they left? And how the he77 are we to know by reading hat sentence?

Although, I find that most reporters mention when they witness something bagged and removed and they make a big deal about it. This leads me to believe they simply examined something onscene in a way that caught the reporter or witnesses attnetion.

 

[Kamille]

ITA frustrating.

Didthey look at something overlong and when questioned say no comment? or did they bag something up, label it and take it with them when they left? And how the he77 are we to know by reading hat sentence?

Although, I find that most reporters mention when they witness something bagged and removed and they make a big deal about it. This leads me to believe they simply examined something onscene in a way that caught the reporter or witnesses attnetion.

Well just to throw another source into the mix...

On Tuesday, teams searched a site off of Indian Grave Road, just north of Lenoir and 10 miles north of the Christie Road location that had been searched last week.

Officials said that the 32 searchers were unable to find any evidence on Tuesday.

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13465050

So what does that one mean? They did not find any evidence on Tuesday. How about Wednesday? :crazy:

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Well just to throw another source into the mix...

On Tuesday, teams searched a site off of Indian Grave Road, just north of Lenoir and 10 miles north of the Christie Road location that had been searched last week.

Officials said that the 32 searchers were unable to find any evidence on Tuesday.

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13465050

So what does that one mean? They did not find any evidence on Tuesday. How about Wednesday? :crazy:

I'm beyond confused.

The Indian Grave Rd. search was on Tuesday.
Was the Dudley Shoals search on Wednesday? Seems like it was a day or two after the Indian Grave search to me. But my memory is not all that great, so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[wenwe4]

I keep coming back to those pictures of the ceiling in the kitchen - it looked to me as if something fell through that ceiling. Even if they had a leak for a long time from the roof, it would make the ceiling spongy and swollen and probably have a trickle of water from time to time - but I believe something of siginificant weight had to have fallen through the ceiling. This is not the same type of damage that LE did when removing other areas of the home. I am very curious as I think this is related. What if Zahra was bored, climbed up in the attic to play, got into the area of the kitchen ceiling that had been compromised from the roof leak, and fell through?
She may have suffered internal bleeding and/or broken bones. If the parents did not seek medical help for her - (not wanting to be charged with lack of supervision maybe?) and she suffered from infections that led to her death. Just another theory to ponder, but I am convinced that ceiling didn't cave in just from rain.

 

[Synaptic Cliff]

Hmmm.. random/rambling thoughts and opinions only (trying to wrap my head around this)..

Things we know for sure (I think):
1. Child has hx cancer
2. Child has above-knee amputation/prosthesis (?ill fitting)
3. Child suffers abuse from step-mother (neighbor's claims, EB does not seem to deny)
4. Child is dead (body found)
5. Child's body has been dismembered (pieces found in different locations)
6. Ransom note admittedly written by EB
7. EB leads police to body parts (she knows where they are hidden)
8. Child was seen alive (and apparently looked well) 9/25 in furniture store, two weeks later she is reported missing by AB.

What I see as common sense (JMO):
1. Dead child + Abusive Step-Mother = Violent abuse leading to death of child, until proven otherwise.
2. AB assisting in cover-up = Either he had something to do with the death, or EB convinced him he had something to lose

Possible causes of death (JMO):
1. Recurrent cancer--possible but unlikely. ?medical records
2. Sepsis from pressure ulcer--also unlikely, though not impossible.
3. Other medical causes-- pulmonary embolism? Cardiac arrythmia? etc.... all highly unlikely..
4. Trauma--very likely (was apparently a common occurence?) There was certainly trauma after the death.. (dismemberment)
5. Combination of above--maybe her overall poor health contributed to her not withstanding the abuse anymore.

What I want to know that someone probably knows (LE?):
1. How many separate sites were there? Were all of her limbs disarticulated, or was it just the femur that was attached to the prosthesis, and the rest of the body was found intact,??
2. Does she have any medical records in the US?

More questions I'm pondering:
1. Why would anyone dismember a child's body after death? Satanic ritual? "Vampire" fetish? Hmmmmm.... I doubt it.... it's beyond horrible--IMO whoever did it was trying to hide something.

If the leg that was previously amputated was the only part cut off post-mortem, then that leads me to believe that whoever did it thought that it, specifically, would give something away. (Identification of body? Cause of death? Manner of death? Proof of their guilt?) What could this mean?

Just my opinions.. thinking "out loud"..

 

[tlcya]

totally with you synaptic cliff, great thinking out loud, great post. I see you are not a veteran but a newb. May I just say one would never know it from your post. ty and glad to have you join us.

 

[wenwe4]

Welcome to WS Synaptic cliff!
I like your thinking out loud and opinions that you are posting. Glad you joined us! I find the sealing of the warrants to be quite telling since LE has not made any further arrests (to my knowledge). You also reminded me that EB knew where to look for the body parts. I have also believed that the "bone" found near the prosthesis was her left femur - but I have nothing to back that up. I also think the rest of the body was found intact and not scattered over a large area or we would have seen a grid like search over many days like the Anthony case. As for COD, we have not been given enough information to follow a trail of evidence for supporting any theories yet. I am holding out for DNA and further LE investigation to blow this whole thing wide open. I wonder when the coroner will be releasing info from the autopsy or even if that will be released to the public.

 

[wenwe4]

Also wanted to add to Synaptic's post about what would be the motivating factors to dismember this child. There has to be either one of 2 scenarios that make sense to me:
1) To disguise that this is Zahra's body due to her previous amputation.
2) To cover up obvious evidence of abuse and/or severe neglect inflicted upon this poor child. Due to the fact Zahra had not been seen by anyone else and no one has admitted to having her spend the night in quite some time - the logical inference would be the primary caretaker(s) - AB & EB.

 

[tlcya]

I tend to think COD is some sort of trauma (abuse that was sever enough to do internal damage?) followed by medical neglect (failure to seek treatment for that injury).

I am also of the opinion that the dismemberment was intended to either hamper IDing body if it were found sometime down the road and/or to hide the COD. However, as to the hiding the COD, I am torn.

I believe that the body was not in multiple parts but in two and the dismemberment was of the already amuptated leg. If that is the case I am not sure how that would hamper discovery of COD.

 

[Synaptic Cliff]

Thanks everyone, for the warm welcome!

 

[scmom]

Apparently it's going to be a while before we find out any more information. The Hickory record has posted an article stating the search warrants will remain sealed.
http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/

 

[tlcya]

Yes, now is the time when we all speculate speculate speculate over the same few known facts til we could all just puke with going over and over the same debates again and again. (I may skip this part this time, sigh) Eventually charges will be filed and it will become about following the court appearances and hearings and arguing legal points.

Sigh. I hate this part. At least the legal wrangling feels like progress. This part here? Sucks big old rotten eggs.

My feel for COD probably won't change barring some huge revelation between now and charges.

 

[ynotdivein]

Yes, now is the time when we all speculate speculate speculate over the same few known facts til we could all just puke with going over and over the same debates again and again. (I may skip this part this time, sigh) Eventually charges will be filed and it will become about following the court appearances and hearings and arguing legal points.

Sigh. I hate this part. At least the legal wrangling feels like progress. This part here? Sucks big old rotten eggs.

My feel for COD probably won't change barring some huge revelation between now and charges.

:hug: TL

I am speculating along with you... sucking them rotten eggs too... they taste like

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcScyoSc6hcxNSAGIV-_qQeDNJr5ROUKY0GWKMfjoDoI-6qF3Lr-xA

Doesn't the grand jury convene next Monday? :waitasec:

 

[docwho3]

As I said once before in another thread, 'developments change things' and so with that in mind
I think it is time to revisit my theory on the cause of death.

IF the stories told in the warrants turn out to true it appears possible that Zahra
may have died from a blow to the head given by one of at least two men that are alleged
to have raped Zahra.

It may possibly have happened along these lines:
Use/abuse of Zahra by the two men was traded for drugs for one or more of the parents use.
But in the course of the rape/abuse Zahra was hit on the head and perhaps injured
badly enough to later die at home.

The parents can't exactly let Zahra be examined by a doctor who would realize rape/abuse
had happened and Zahra might tell what happened if she lived or DNA might point
to the two men who might in turn tell about the deal they made to get to use Zahra
and so they kept her at home and she died.

Again the parents cannot just call 911 and say Zahra died because the body would
tell a story of rape and abuse and the DNA inside Zahra and other evidence likely
would have led to the uncovering of the identity of the two men who raped & hit
Zahra (the men had records-don't know if their DNA would have been on file but possible)
and that in turn would lead to the two men telling of the deal made for them to get
to use/abuse Zahra and that might get Adam and Elisa charged along with the two men.
(I haven't read the legal thread yet but I have heard that if someone is killed when you
participate in a felony you can be charged equally even if you did not hit or shoot
the victim yourself.)

Pressured by LE confronting Elisa with the fact that she failed the poly,Elisa
begins to spill the details of the body dismemberment and the disposal locations.
I can only guess that she felt that she was safe enough in releasing that info to LE
since her and Adam 'really didn't kill Zahra' and more importantly with the flesh gone the
DNA evidence that might have led to the two men would be gone as well.
As long as nothing proved Adam or Elisa actually murdered Zahra, Elisa may have felt
the investigation would eventually stall there and go no further.
Or perhaps Elisa felt there would reasonable doubt at trial due to that same lack of evidence.

Still, until we have the word from LE that this is also their theory I have to keep in mind that
Elisa failed the 3 main questions in that poly and that could mean very simply that she killed Zahra
and her and Adam disposed of the body. The two man rape thing may turn out
to not be involved in her death. She may have survived that abuse only to later have been
murdered at home by Elisa in one of her fits of rage.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

I like your theory, Docwho.I'm thinking along the lines of...

EB set up Zahra as payment for drugs to these guys named in her alleged rape. Zahra threatened to go to LE (poor child was hurting)...and I'm of the mind that EB beat her senseless for threatening to go to LE and died on her bed.
What fails me is the thought of daddy, where the hell is he and what's he doing??? Now I also wonder if EB enlisted the help of these two alleged rapists, is this the reason they needed to get out of town (besides the rape allegations)???
All so convoluted but I am sure of one thing....precious Zahra beat the odds against cancer twice, only to meet this cancer called EB....:furious: May she rot in HE77 for the rest of eternity and then some...JMHO

Zahra's death demands justice

Justice for Zahra

 

[NcMomma]

I'm still sticking with my theory in light of recent documents (search warrants). IMO Zahra was raped by these men (arranged by EB for drugs or possible cash...remember the supposed $10,000...maybe it was taped, photographed or on webcam). This rape caused internal injuries to Zahra, hence the blood on her legs. EB took her home and explained her staying in bed as a stomach ache ( didn't AB or someone say she had been sick with a stomach ache?). The child then died from those injuries. EB tells AB that they can't report the death because of all the abuse allegations, they would never be believed that she died from a "virus". So, they dismember her and spread her body all over the place. They report it as a kidnapping thinking that Zahra will just be another statistic after a little while. Another missing child that has never been found. EB did say something in one of her letters about there being so many "missing" kids. She also says she wonders if it would have been different if Zahra hadn't been from AU and a cancer survivor. Makes me think that she believes that maybe LE and the public wouldn't have been SO concerned if she was just any "ordinary" kid that had gone "missing". There are NO ordinary kids...they are all extraordinary in their own ways!

I know its all disgusting but this is the direction my gut has led me in from the very beginning. Just my theory but I can't shake it!!