Cell Phone, Location and Mapping the Route

[Eldee]

You may be right about the cell phone and the Kijiji ad, I hadn't thought of it that way before. But making a mistake about how many men came to look at the truck doesn't jive with me. SB is the only person that made a statement to LE during the initial interview about what happened that night. It's highly unlikely she got the number of men wrong when it was so fresh in her mind, not to mention LE ran with the 3 men theory for a while. If it was a mistake, SB would have corrected LE early on. But that's JMO.

Doesn't jive with me either. The ad also said the third guy said he would back. How does something so critical get made up like that? Just my opinion.
The fact that he actually spoke, who would make that up? Right from the very get go the facts are hazy. Someone's talking, just don't know who.

 

[canadiangirl]

Right, but I'm thinking of the initial search for TB by friends and family. SB tells so and so the story, who tells the next friend, who tells the next friend who is the one who helps out by posting the ad. Somewhere in there, the number gets changed to 3.
I think LE's suspicion of at least 3 people would be mostly based on the involvement of the second vehicle.

ETA: In the beginning, I think LE only mentioned 2 suspects. The suspicion of 3 or more didn't come until later. Only mentions 2 suspects in this article from May 11: Police have described the second suspect as white, in his early 20s, around 5-foot-9 with a small-to-medium build and dark hair. They say he was seen wearing a red-hooded sweatshirt with the hood pulled over his head.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...ppeared-after-taking-strangers-on-test-drive/

But the cache from the Kijiji ad mentions 3 on May 8th. (along with the phone). May 8th was only 1.5 days since TB went missing since it was later in the evening on May 6th. Something about the Kijiji ad just isnt adding up for me. I think there's more to the story and/or people know more then they are letting on. (which is fine, I just find it odd)

 

[Curiositykitten]

Doesn't jive with me either. The ad also said the third guy said he would back. How does something so critical get made up like that? Just my opinion.
The fact that he actually spoke, who would make that up? Right from the very get go the facts are hazy. Someone's talking, just don't know who.

To explain why they have no vehicle, the two guys tell SB, "Our friend dropped us off and he'll be right back."

As news spreads and gets distorted, that morphs into the third guy being seen by SB and talking to her.

Not surprising at all that the story gets muddied as it is transmitted.

That kijiji ad that references the phone is indeed odd in its wording, but that is probably just due to someone who doesn't write that well placing the ad. Occam's razor -- someone wants to helo, doesn't write that well, words ad oddly, conspiracy theories take off.

 

[canadiangirl]

Yes found that very odd wording myself. Here is a copy of the ad
Quote:
Originally Posted by dotr
On Kijiji
http://hamilton.kijiji.ca/c-communit...AdIdZ482912584

And this one in the cars & trucks section:


Quote:
2007 Dodge Power Ram 3500 Pickup Truck
Please keep a look out for this truck. Our friend had it up on here
2 nights ago 3 guys came to look at it in ancaster 2 got dropped off
And the other guy said he would be back. Our friend tim bosma took the other
2 guys for a test drive near the fair grounds in ancaster. No one ever came back
Thay was 2 nights ago. Lisence plate 726 7zw. Please call police even
If u find a phone on the ground. Thanks go to the hamilton police services facebook page

Also it was stated that there was 3 guys. Again-odd. Am I correct in saying that the police are not sure if there was a 3rd person ?

<bbm>
Ok I understand the theory of "telephone", whereby the information becomes distorted through the various persons. But these are very SPECIFIC points of this ad. And being so fresh in the mind of the person who posted the ad since it was 2 days prior, leads me to believe they knew what they were talking about. Obviously he/she was close enough to the situation to be able to give these details and they are stated as factual, not we THINK there was a 3rd guy etc. You get the point I'm trying to make. JMO of course.

 

[Curiositykitten]

<bbm>
Ok I understand the theory of "telephone", whereby the information becomes distorted through the various persons. But these are very SPECIFIC points of this ad. And being so fresh in the mind of the person who posted the ad since it was 2 days prior, leads me to believe they knew what they were talking about. Obviously he/she was close enough to the situation to be able to give these details and they are stated as factual, not we THINK there was a 3rd guy etc. You get the point I'm trying to make. JMO of course.

Actually I would assume the person who placed the ad wasn't in the inner circle. Doesn't seem like something LE would approve of. Sounds more like someone just going off and doing something not that smart on thwir own.

 

[canadiangirl]

Actually I would assume the person who placed the ad wasn't in the inner circle. Doesn't seem like something LE would approve of. Sounds more like someone just going off and doing something not that smart on thwir own.

LE doesnt approve of a lot of things friends and family do but it still happens in various cases. Maybe this person is not in the "inner circle" - I could agree with that since we know very few people were in that circle (we all heard PL account of SB telling everyone to leave but him and family). but I still think very specific for someone who didnt know anything.

 

[SnoopCat]

LE has been playing games with the 3rd person story the whole time. 1st there's no mention of person#3, then they "think" DM's Yukon was trailing the others driven by person#3, now they're not even sure person#3 even exists. Somethings not right.

 

[emc2]

LE doesnt approve of a lot of things friends and family do but it still happens in various cases. Maybe this person is not in the "inner circle" - I could agree with that since we know very few people were in that circle (we all heard PL account of SB telling everyone to leave but him and family). but I still think very specific for someone who didnt know anything.

IIRC, in the very beginning people that were on the official facebook group were posting different ads on various sites to try to help. I remember LE were saying there was 2 suspects but on the group people were assuming there were 3 because the suspects would need someone to drop them off. There were a lot of assumptions in the first few days and people were jumping all over the chance to make fliers and ads. I'll try to go through the group to find where it was posted, but it's going to take quite awhile.

 

[Emgee]

This is my theory right now: MS and DM (and possibly 3rd suspect) park Yukon down the road somewhere and DM and MS walk up TB's driveway. Either then, or previously on the call with TB they let him know that a friend will drop them off. This ensures no one at the house (SB) will see the Yukon and it doesn't seem sketchy. It's my opinion that the kijiji comment was distorted by a well meaning friend who took the 3rd person drop-off as fact and not speculation.

IMO they don't drive around long before they go directly to the secluded area where they have parked the Yukon and it is there that TB is killed. If there is a 3rd person, it would make sense to have him there for backup. If there isn't a 3rd person, they're not going to want to leave the Yukon there for a long time in case someone sees it and thinks it's strange to be parked there at that time of night and takes note of the license plate. Dead body in vehicle means they want to get to a safe location stat - last thing they want to do is have to drive back from Brantford to get the Yukon.

Possibly at this point, the body and cell phone are even transferred to the back of the Yukon where he'd be better hidden from view.

The dodge then leaves and goes by way of Brantford, where it is spotted between 9:30-10:30pm. Did they have a purpose there? Seeing someone? Picking up reinforcements? Lots of questions there. It's my opinion that there is a 3rd person involved, but this person aided and abetted and perhaps helped with cleanup. Perhaps he didn't want any part of the actual theft/murder, but was still in the know.

The Yukon (with either DM, MS or Suspect 3 driving) has the cellphone. He turns it off approx. 40 mins later and is still within a mile of TB's house. This explains the 2 police reports saying it was turned off 40 mins later & within a mile of his house. Maybe he waits a bit, takes his time cleaning up, knowing that he has a few extra minutes because the dodge has to pick someone up first or do something in Brantford . The 2 drivers are in contact with each other during this period, and perhaps even meet up quickly near where TB's cell phone was found to discuss next steps. Once they decide on farm, they ditch cell and continue on their way. This might account for why police knew there was a 2nd vehicle -- they see it at some point on cameras near TB's. Possibly it wasn't trailing the truck, but they saw it do a couple of drive-bys or something before the guys showed up for the test drive. And then they see the 2 vehicles together on camera somewhere in Brantford and put 2 and 2 together.

This is the scenario that best makes sense in my head at this moment, knowing all that we know. It could change tomorrow.

 

[Archangel7]

LE has been playing games with the 3rd person story the whole time. 1st there's no mention of person#3, then they "think" DM's Yukon was trailing the others driven by person#3, now they're not even sure person#3 even exists. Somethings not right.

It would not be unusual for a murder investigation to initially theorize/account for the two known suspects that were seen, and based on interview with SB, possibly at least one more for the drop off/chase car.

An investigation needs a wide loop initially, when LE is speculating on all possibilities and seeking evidence.

Then as evidence is found(both direct and circumstantial), the EVIDENCE decides and tells the tale of what happened. As this process unfolds, a picture emerges that excludes some possibilities and will bring in other possibilities until all possibilities and all evidence is evaluated and a final picture supported by evidence evolves.

We all agree that the priority is that justice be served rather than which LE was factually correct in the # of suspects involved in press releases during the initial stages of an investigation.

 

[canadiangirl]

This seems pretty solid to me - why they are changing their tune is a mystery.
To release that then to basically retract is, something is fishy.
And the fact the friend who posted the ad seems to be in the know from the beginning, again, IMO not a case of misunderstanding or getting the wrong info, it seems pretty bang on.
- Phone on ground
- 3 men
JMO

Where the 3rd person is, now that's another issue.

<snip>
Kavanagh said they were able to retrieve video surveillance which shows a second vehicle followed the three men in the truck as it left the residence.
Police are still trying to confirm the type of vehicle it was and how many suspects may have been in that second car


Read more: http://www.cp24.com/news/at-least-t...-murder-investigation-1.1280534#ixzz2W117kbxs

 

[Curiositykitten]

I don't find anything "fishy" in the cops retracting and revising.

As Archangel ponts out, in the early stages they consider multiple scenarios, some of which will eventually be excluded as the evidence points elsewhere.

I do find it extremely disheartening, however, that they seem to have so little information /evidence about something which seems to be a crucial part of the investigation, that being whether there are 2, 3 or X suspects.

And again, as I and others have pointed out, there is no reason to assume the guy that placed the funny kijiji ad had any inside info. at all or "knew" something.

 

[canadiangirl]

I don't find anything "fishy" in the cops retracting and revising.

As Archangel ponts out, in the early stages they consider multiple scenarios, some of which will eventually be excluded as the evidence points elsewhere.

I do find it extremely disheartening, however, that they seem to have so little information /evidence about something which seems to be a crucial part of the investigation, that being whether there are 2, 3 or X suspects.

And again, as I and others have pointed out, there is no reason to assume the guy that placed the funny kijiji ad had any inside info. at all or "knew" something.

Video is pretty solid evidence I would think?

 

[axe2grind]

This my take on the two points of interest with the phone:

When/where it was turned "off"
(IIRC it was two minutes down the road from TB's around the Ancaster Fairgrounds area)

When/where the battery was removed (about 40 minutes after they left on the test drive / outside of Brantford)

Not sure how the phone works that Tim had, but it seems the cell tower was able to "track" the phone's location, even while the phone was turned off but the battery was still inside keeping the phone in a sleep mode. Once the battery was removed, no more tracking.

 

[Curiositykitten]

This my take on the two points of interest with the phone:

When/where it was turned "off"
(IIRC it was two minutes down the road from TB's around the Ancaster Fairgrounds area)

When/where the battery was removed (about 40 minutes after they left on the test drive / outside of Brantford)

Not sure how the phone works that Tim had, but it seems the cell tower was able to "track" the phone's location, even while the phone was turned off but the battery was still inside keeping the phone in a sleep mode. Once the battery was removed, no more tracking.

First off, this whole battery removed thing is based on a rumour.

And second, could you please provide a reference to phones that can be traced when turned off. I've never heard of such a thing.

 

[Archangel7]

Video is pretty solid evidence I would think?

For consideration and of course IMO.

If the video clearly showed TB's truck with DM, MS & TB inside...
AND
A third vehicle behind them closely, obviously tailing...
AND
In proximity to TB's Home....(before any chance of any of the three in TB's truck exiting)........
AND
Very soon in time after departure on the test drive.....(before any chance of any of the three in TB's truck exiting)

There is at least a third possible suspect.

If the video doesn't clearly show that or the sequence above is scrambled, or the time difference is significant, it leaves a possibility of this:

a murderous act takes place, one suspect leaves the TB vehicle and enters the parked chase car to be used as a decoy/interference, or to simply take it with them, since they may have simply left it there initially and walked to TB's.

Then there's the possibility of a odd coincidence of a random vehicle in a rural area that time of night that close to an ongoing murder/theft and matching DM's Yukon.

 

[Curiositykitten]

Video is pretty solid evidence I would think?

Yes, video is. But it seems the video they have now doesn't provide evidence as to the number of suspects.

 

[Archangel7]

First off, this whole battery removed thing is based on a rumour.

And second, could you please provide a reference to phones that can be traced when turned off. I've never heard of such a thing.

The only way currently to be sure is to remove the battery and furthermore the sim card. A battery, sim and phone together provide a unique ID to the tower. As such the phone is tracked. If the phone has a standalone GPS it only receives, doesn't transmit. If the phone uses towers for GPS it transmits/receives.

Phones like Motrola Razr, Nextel, Samsung, Nokia off the top of my head, are vulnerable to unknown software down loads that can give the phone somewhat additional capabilities and aren't off when off. IMO

Engineers design things where off is really off/dead/a paperweight.
They also design things to be off, but not off, sleeping.

Off is not absolutely the same as having the battery out and many phone"s batteries are not consumer removable.

IMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

There are two main tidbits that have been reported in the press, either the phone was turned off "shortly after 10" or "within a mile", both of which have gotten a lot of mileage, see examples below.

Re: the "within a mile", it seems that LE would not have access to information that would give them data that precise.

"Police say the cell phone was turned off shortly after 10:00 Monday night and hadn&#8217;t been turned back on since"

http://www.chch.com/timeline-for-bosma-case/

"Bosma had his cellphone on him, but it was turned off shortly after his disappearance. Because of the rural area&#8217;s poor reception, police were able to track its last ping &#8212; that is, the final signal from the phone that bounced off the nearest tower &#8212; only to within 50 kilometres."

http://www.chfi.com/2013/05/10/heartbreaking-plea-from-missing-mans-wife/

And yet...the often quoted mile:

"They [Family/friends] learned from police that Bosma's phone was turned off within a mile of the house."

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2879300--tim-is-missing-have-you-seen-him-/

 

[Archangel7]

There are two main tidbits that have been reported in the press, either the phone was turned off "shortly after 10" or "within a mile", both of which have gotten a lot of mileage, see examples below.

Re: the "within a mile", it seems that LE would not have access to information that would give them data that precise.

If they went North as SB indicated, 1 mile would be just North of the powelines and about the driveway of the first "trucking business" per google map.

If both(after 10 pm AND 1 mile) are true they would have to be on their way back towards TB's.

Just look at the amount of towers in the area, towers of all carriers, hard to believe there is not a better pinpoint from the amount of towers.
The best explanation I suppose, for no better pinpoint, is that carriers likely target the 403 corridor and very little coverage either side thus the poor reception. IMO