Changes Right Before the Murders

[Jeana (DP)]

So the "motivator" for Susan Smith was to put this "lover" ahead of her own children and then kill her own children. That is the motivator, then what can we do(by understanding the motive) to "prevent this again".

Nothing..........

I don't care if the guy was a stud, does not even factor into the matter, the matter was she killed her kids. Most "normal" mothers would say: You don't want or like kids, fine, there is the door, they were here before you and I gave birth to them, they are my children, you are not my child, so see ya......

Susan Smith was faced with overwhemling evidence that she was responsible. it took a lot for her to "breakdown" and tell the truth. At least she told the truth......

Darlie was convicted with overwhelming evidence, but she has NDP therefore she will NEVER, ever accept responsibility or even give anyone a clue why she killed her kids. She will never admit responsibility, even on her way to being executed, she will keep saying: You are making a mistake, the intruder, the intruder, find the intruder........she will always blame something or someone else......

Like I said before the only thing that any normal and rational and reasonable person can understand to justify murder is self defense.

Nothing else.......

I don't care what the lame execuses or motivation is.....there is no excuse for murder and the motivation is in the warped mind of the person committing the murder.........

Excuses are just excuses.........not accepting personal responsibility.......for what you have done.........

Diane Downs, Susan Smith....Darlie Routier......

Excellent post. The sad thing about the Smith case is that any number of family members would have been more than happy to take those boys off her hands, thereby freeing her for her "boyfriend." I'm always left speechless when these people feel that murder is the better alternative and that they won't get caught.

Many of the Darlie's feel that America was so angry that Smith escaped the death penalty that Darlie received a greater punishment than she would have had the Smith case not happened. I think that's nonsense. This is Texas afterall. There are very few, if any cases, where I can see a parent NOT receiving the death penalty in this type of case.

 

[HeartofTexas]

No, Beesy, you shouldn't quit posting. Just talk to people on here the way you would like to be talked to. Sometimes it's possibly just the difference between talking in person, or talking on the internet... things get lost in the translation. I certainly understand a lack of patience with the Darlie supporters!

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Well I don't believe that we have any Darlie supporters brave enough to post here. They read here and report back to headquarters, but they don't post.

 

[Goody]

Motive is important because like it or not, Darlie is like many of us. She could be the lady next door, your sister-in-law's niece, the clerk in the neighborhood markert, etc. As long as we don't know why the Darlies of this world do what they do, our hands our tied to prevent the next one. So I think understanding...and we can understand motive even if the motive is not a strong enough reason to commit murder....understanding is important for many, many reasons outside of and beyond Darlie and the case itself.

I take grave exception that you are comparing murderers to the rest of the population. Darlie is sure as hell not like me or anyone I know. My kids are fine. My kids could never push me to the point of harming them.
People do things for their own reasons.

Other than the act of murder, how is she so different?

Should you stop children from crying, prevent a child from talking to the Mother's boyfriend, make sure all Mothers get full custody of their kids even if they are not fit to raise them. That would prevent the murders, make sure kids and Judges and whomever, bow to the mind and motivation of the person who wants to kill.

What would you do to "understand the motivation" behind the crimes mentioned above.

Understanding the motivation leads to discovery of the underlying causes of the motivation, which is really what we want to know. Knowing won't necessarily stop the Darlie's of this world from killing, but it might help us to identify problem areas and that might lead to an enhancement in treatments that might prevent some of those murders from occuring. One thing is for certain, ignorance has never brought about any positive change at all, so ignoring the problem is probably not a productive problem solver either.

What about prevention of the above.......the motivation.......explain to me the "motivation" of a person to murder and the next person with the exact same circumstances does not.

You are trying to over simplify my point. We don't need exact same circumstances. We need to know what is at the base of the trigger and possibly what is at the base of the base. If it was PPD, for example, or just plain greed. Have we as a society become so materialistic that some of us are willing to do anything, even kill our own children, to hold onto it? What makes us think with any reason at all that this is an acceptable act?

It all lies with the person and the "choices" they make. There is no justification or strong enough motivation for murder, unless in self-defense. The motivation for self-defense - to save your own valuable life.

I totally agree. It is all about choices. That is the bottomline. But something allowed Darlie and Susan to stoop to that choice. ( Diane Downs, I think, probably didn't have to stoop. ) Discovering what that was would help people sitting at home having difficulty coping with everyday life. If we could catch the Darlies and Susans of this world at an earlier stage than after the murder has been committed, we might be able to help them prevent the inexcusable. I don't think that is just a pipe dream.

The motivation for murder - what ever the person feels is justified in their own minds. Do they value money over people......that is their own warped motive. Do we make sure that everyone, no matter what their financial situation is, has all the money they want and need, so they don't kill their husband or wife or children to get insurance money.....

That is an interesting view. Obviously not the answer though. Valuing money over people is a symtom, not the root of the problem. If we could identify the root though, we might be successful at reducing the incidents of murder within families.

If only the world was so simplistic as to think that to understand a person motivation for murder, future murders can be prevented. The next person is not the same, their minds and motivation are not the same. Therefore how can a person prevent a murder using a different set of circumstances and people.

But that is the point. While the circumstances may be different, the root causes of what leads to murder are often the same or very similar. It is the root causes that would need to be treated or changed in order to prevent the act of murder. We probably can't do much about robberies that go wrong, but emotionally based murders certainly have some hope just by virtue of the emotions involved. Plus the killers are often first time offenders, which means they are law abiding in every other way. If there is no hope for them, there is no hope for any criminal ever.

Rational people do not and never will understand why and what motivates a person to commit a murder against her/his own flesh and blood.

I am not sure this is true. Rational people should be able to understand many things they don't personally participate in or approve of. That is why we are rational. If we isolated ourselves to the point that we can only relate to people who are like us, we might be closer to the sanity edge than we dare to think.

A person chooses to react to different situation according to their own personal motivators. It has to do with their character, how they were raised, what they experienced, their personality......their environment.....

Agreed, but not exclusively. I have known many of low character who would never commit murder and we have all seen people thought to be morally surperior all their lives who end up being accused of murder. I used to have a friend who was always trying to recruit me into some multi-level business venture and she would say, "You'll see. The must unlikely people are in this thing. You'll love it!" So goes the murderer....the most unlikely people sometimes.

I don't care what warped or weird motivation Darlie had, nothing and I mean nothing can ever explain away what she did to two helpless sleeping children, then try to deceive everyone to save her own butt.

She put herself ahead of her own children, her own greed, her own identity, valued money over the life of her children.

It could have been as simple as one of the children out grew their clothes, asked for a new toy, needed new shoes. But Darlie could not go on vacation, so therefore in her own warped "motivation" killed the children who were going to drain her present and future resources.

I would wear 20 year old shoes for myself, as long as my child was fine, but the next person would kill their kid to buy themselves 20 pair of new shoes.

How would we prevent future murders with that motivation........

Most of the things you list as motivators are really triggers, not the actual motivation. Let's just say that Darlie was suffering from depression and worry over their financial stresses and upcoming committments that she was afraid she could not fulfill. The diet pills kept her from sleeping well and after three months, she might have been down to the raw nerves. On top of that she fights with Darin and in the process of that or as a result of that, she kills the kids. The motivation might be seen as that last thing that triggered the final act, but we know by looking at all these other things that the real cause goes much deeper than Devon talking back or even that fight with Darin. The demons are in the depression and the causes of that.

Knowing that may not stop someone else from committing a like crime or it may, depending on how the psychological world can use the information gained from it. But sweeping it all under the carpet and refusing to even consider it definitely won't help anyone.

I am one who likes to see it all carved in stone. I want the whole picture to go down in history. What role Darin played and why. What Darlie did and why. I don't need to kill her just to get even with her for committing such a horrible crime. I don't feel a need to punish her. The state can handle all that. I just want to know why, no matter how lame the trigger might have been. Something turned a middle class housewife into a monster.

How would we prevent future murders? That would depend on what we find, but I am guessing thru education and treatment of depression as it applies, assuming, of course, that depression is the villain here. If it made perfect sense to Darlie to trade her kids for a trip to Cancun, then we really have to dig into what was going on with her.

And maybe you are right. Maybe we can't realistically prevent murders by indentifying motivators and triggers. Maybe all we can do is aid in treatment after the deed has been done.

 

[Goody]

[/color]Don't forget Susan Smith's excuse, which some people on this forum seem to accept. "I'm married, but losing my lover because he does not like children, therefore: oooh bright idea". By the way, have you ever seen a picture of the lover? Not enough there to make me cross the lawn for, much less leave my husband and kill my children.

Do you really believe that is why she did it? To win back a lover she had lost?

 

[Goody]

I don't think anyone ever accepted Smith's reasoning for murdering her children. She at least said why she did it. And while the guy was no stud, she was pretty "Plain Jane" herself, so I can see the attraction they may have had with one another.
Routier won't admit why she murdered the boys.

I thought Susan was as cute as a button. Why one earth did you think she was a plain Jane? Well, I guess it doesn't matter. I am just surprised.

 

[Goody]

Like I said before the only thing that any normal and rational and reasonable person can understand to justify murder is self defense.

Nothing else.......

I don't care what the lame execuses or motivation is.....there is no excuse for murder and the motivation is in the warped mind of the person committing the murder.........

Excuses are just excuses.........not accepting personal responsibility.......for what you have done.........

Diane Downs, Susan Smith....Darlie Routier......

Wait a second. Understanding motivation does not mean it is excused or that somehow the motivation makes sense, at least not in any rational way.

For example, if Susan Smith were to say that she was overwhelmed by the heavy burden of responsibility of raising her children on her own while her ex was out having a good time night after night with other women and she just couldn't put one foot in front of the other anymore, that she tried to ask for help but no one really listened so she just thought the best thing to do was kill herself and the children, then she chickened out and got out of the car and just froze. For some reason she could not make herself save the kids. We know the motive doesn't make rational sense, but we can understand the thoughts and feelings going through her head at the time. It is a good example of the pressures single mothers go thru today,and emphasizes the fact that single mothers need help, fathers need to be more active in their children's lives, marriage needs to be taken more seriously, and leads to questions like how can society and the courts help.

Does it excuse her actions? No, of course not. Does it change her sentence? No. Should it? Probably not.

Will it help to make us better prepared for the next single mother overwhelmed by her life? I hope so.

 

[Goody]

Well I don't believe that we have any Darlie supporters brave enough to post here. They read here and report back to headquarters, but they don't post.

O, gosh, I bet they love me!

 

[Goody]

Many of the Darlie's feel that America was so angry that Smith escaped the death penalty that Darlie received a greater punishment than she would have had the Smith case not happened. I think that's nonsense. This is Texas afterall. There are very few, if any cases, where I can see a parent NOT receiving the death penalty in this type of case.

I agree. Darlie's sentence had nothing to do with Susan Smith. Anyone convicted of that crime would have gotten the DP. It was a gruesome crime.

 

[beesy]

Do you really believe that is why she did it? To win back a lover she had lost?

I don't know? Was it a "Susan" reason, just like we say there are "Darlie" reasons? One of many things. As we've said with Darlie, there's no logical "reason" at all anyway.

 

[beesy]

I thought Susan was as cute as a button. Why one earth did you think she was a plain Jane? Well, I guess it doesn't matter. I am just surprised.

I especially liked those two tears she squeezed out and that little bratty whine which reminded me of when my kids were 2 yrs old. I notice she keeps her eyes on her prepared statement and never looks into the camera."Ya'll've gotta be strong and Mommy and Daddy love you"...or something like that. I don't think she's so plain Jane either, cuter than the lover. I like her hair, at least I did then.

 

[beesy]

Speaking of Susan Smith: check this out
http://writeaprisoner.com/template.asp?i=z-221487

 

[deanws]

Do you really believe that is why she did it? To win back a lover she had lost?

I absolutely do.:furious:

 

[CyberLaw]

The one difficultly a society will have to prevent murders in the future, is that it has little to do with external factors.

Motive is a psychological response to obtain a goal or desired result. That is the goal or desired result of an individual person.

For example: Johnny and Susie, both neighbours.

Johnny had his priviledge of using the car taken away because of reckless behaviour. He is not happy, an angry young man. So to "teach" his parents a lesson and get revenge(both psychological factors) he grabs a shotgun and shoots both parents as they are sleeping. There he showed them..........

Susie had her priviledge of using the car taken away because of reckless behaviour. She is not happy and is an angry young women. She storms out of the house, stays at a friends place and calls her parents after a couple of days. She comes home, and tells her parents that she is not happy about not using the car, but she understand that she could harm herself, others, and is not acting in a mature and responsible manner.

Susie goes on to college. Johnny goes on to trial. Both had the same "motivation" to kill their parents but only one "choose" to act upon it. The motivation is the psychological factors.

Susie has a life, graduates college, gets a job, marries and settles down and has kids.

Johnny is faced with life in prison.

So it is not "external" factors that "cause" a person to kill it the psychological motivation and the "choice" they make to do it.

That is why Susan Smith and Darlie Routier are not like the rest of the population. Not all persons like a shopkeeper, store clerk, sister-in law will solve their "perceived problems" with violence. No one is the same psychologically.

There are times when a person "feels" like killing and has strong psychological motivators to do so, but they choose not to.

So solving the problems of being an "overwhelmed" single mother is not going to prevent murders, because it is up to the individual.

That is why as much as a person "tries" to find the motivation as to why Darlie killed her kids is not possible, unless Darlie "confesses"(not going to happen) because you are not Darlie and don't have the same psychological response or knowledge of her how her mind works.

It is not like she is going to admit her "motivation" because she is still yelling: Instruder, Intruder, find the intruder.

Asked why she killed her kids. She will deny it to the day she dies.

To eliminate murder: You would have to eliminate all of the psychological factors that "motivate" a person to kill.

Preceived slights, envy, jelously, entitlment, anger, poverty which leads to feeling of deprivation, TV shows that glorify violence, war, revenge, quick fix to problems, control, feeling of power, suffering of another person, materalism, greed, owning a person, making them do what you want, seeing a person as less than human, gangs, ghettos, etc.

These are the psychological factors from motivation, not environmental factors.

That is why to understand motivation is not going to prevent murders under the exact same "physical and environmental" circumstances as it has to do with the individual person and their own person "motivators" in response to a desired goal or desire.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Good example Cyberlaw! However, here in Texas, Johnny is on death row.

 

[Goody]

I don't know? Was it a "Susan" reason, just like we say there are "Darlie" reasons? One of many things. As we've said with Darlie, there's no logical "reason" at all anyway.

No reason is truly logical, short of he raped my sister so I killed the jerk. Susan just seemed like such a lost soul to me. Maybe my instinct where she is concerned is misplaced or off the mark,but I just don't see a girl who would kill her children (and you can tell that Susan truly loved those children) for a guy who was already out of her life, esp after she told him she'd had an affair with his father. She had no chance of ever getting that guy back, even without children. I've always felt that after she lost the lover and admitted about her affair with his father, all the while knowing her stepfather still expected her to perform for him and her ex was out having a good ol' time after hooking up with a new love that she felt she had run out of options. She called her mother that day but her mother was too busy to talk. Seemed to me she was reaching out but was so far out on an emotional limb, she couldn't wait. I think maybe she did have it in her head to kill all three of them, herself included, but something pulled her back. I can see her there frozen, unable to make herself save the children. I think Susan was really a tortured soul who did a really good job of masking it.

I mean look at what she had learned from men. Her body was to be used, her heart was to be chewed up and thrown away, she wasn't good enough for the men she perceived to be "good" so she couldn't even elevate herself above her ex and her stepfather. And basically nobody cared enough for her or her children to help her. They were all so busy with their lives,they didn't even notice the plight she was in.

 

[Goody]

I agree with Jeana. Excellent post, Cyberlaw.

I can see what you are saying and agree with almost all of it. The only thing I can point out that might be a flaw is that Johnny and Susie probably are not starting off with the same ability to cope with life's problems. I realize that will always be the problem, but it is those folks who are flawed that we seek to heal....or learn from. By learning from them, we might learn how to identify them sooner and maybe redirect their paths, thus helping them learn more effective coping skills. And I suspect that the "coping" is just scratching the surface of the emotional flaws/weaknesses that might one day lead to murder or other crimes if left unattended.

I don't think we can change masses of people at one time, but knowledge is power and the more we learn about those who commit crimes the better equipped we are to do something about it, whatever that might mean. I definitely don't think murdering them is the most satisfactory answer. Whether we think like them or not,and most esp if we don't, learning from them is the only way to be better prepared to deal with them.

So, Cyber, are you an attorney, a psychologist, or just a very educated person?

 

[j2mirish]

The one difficultly a society will have to prevent murders in the future, is that it has little to do with external factors.

Motive is a psychological response to obtain a goal or desired result. That is the goal or desired result of an individual person.

For example: Johnny and Susie, both neighbours.

Johnny had his priviledge of using the car taken away because of reckless behaviour. He is not happy, an angry young man. So to "teach" his parents a lesson and get revenge(both psychological factors) he grabs a shotgun and shoots both parents as they are sleeping. There he showed them..........

Susie had her priviledge of using the car taken away because of reckless behaviour. She is not happy and is an angry young women. She storms out of the house, stays at a friends place and calls her parents after a couple of days. She comes home, and tells her parents that she is not happy about not using the car, but she understand that she could harm herself, others, and is not acting in a mature and responsible manner.

Susie goes on to college. Johnny goes on to trial. Both had the same "motivation" to kill their parents but only one "choose" to act upon it. The motivation is the psychological factors.

Susie has a life, graduates college, gets a job, marries and settles down and has kids.

Johnny is faced with life in prison.

So it is not "external" factors that "cause" a person to kill it the psychological motivation and the "choice" they make to do it.

That is why Susan Smith and Darlie Routier are not like the rest of the population. Not all persons like a shopkeeper, store clerk, sister-in law will solve their "perceived problems" with violence. No one is the same psychologically.

There are times when a person "feels" like killing and has strong psychological motivators to do so, but they choose not to.

So solving the problems of being an "overwhelmed" single mother is not going to prevent murders, because it is up to the individual.

That is why as much as a person "tries" to find the motivation as to why Darlie killed her kids is not possible, unless Darlie "confesses"(not going to happen) because you are not Darlie and don't have the same psychological response or knowledge of her how her mind works.

It is not like she is going to admit her "motivation" because she is still yelling: Instruder, Intruder, find the intruder.

Asked why she killed her kids. She will deny it to the day she dies.

To eliminate murder: You would have to eliminate all of the psychological factors that "motivate" a person to kill.

Preceived slights, envy, jelously, entitlment, anger, poverty which leads to feeling of deprivation, TV shows that glorify violence, war, revenge, quick fix to problems, control, feeling of power, suffering of another person, materalism, greed, owning a person, making them do what you want, seeing a person as less than human, gangs, ghettos, etc.

These are the psychological factors from motivation, not environmental factors.

That is why to understand motivation is not going to prevent murders under the exact same "physical and environmental" circumstances as it has to do with the individual person and their own person "motivators" in response to a desired goal or desire.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: I get so tired of all the "reasons" why.....get so tired of the buts.......the bottom line is this------ YOU DONT KILL SOMEONE====== certainly not your own children or family......I MUST BE OLD SCHOOL OR SOMETHING-- this can fall into so many catagories-----they molested because they were... they beat their wife ( or Husband) because they grew up that way-- I just cant believe that me growing up in a middle class family- no perks, no money, etc..etc..etc.. it is not about how "they" saw it--- "they" still KNOW--- it is not right

 

[deanws]

Good example Cyberlaw! However, here in Texas, Johnny is on death row.

AND...will ACTUALLY die. I do not understand why some states sentence to death...but hardly ever carry out the sentence.

 

[Goody]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: I get so tired of all the "reasons" why.....get so tired of the buts.......the bottom line is this------ YOU DONT KILL SOMEONE====== certainly not your own children or family......I MUST BE OLD SCHOOL OR SOMETHING-- this can fall into so many catagories-----they molested because they were... they beat their wife ( or Husband) because they grew up that way-- I just cant believe that me growing up in a middle class family- no perks, no money, etc..etc..etc.. it is not about how "they" saw it--- "they" still KNOW--- it is not right

Totally agree, Irish! But that doesn't mean that no one should look at such things.

You do realize that according to Texas statute, it is not enough to kill your own children to qualify for the death penalty? You also have to be a danger to society, or maybe I should say a continued threat. Darlie should not have been given the death penalty because she did not qualify, other than the nature of her crime.

To us lay people, the nature of her crime alone is enough to want her to die, too, but that is not what is laid out in the death penalty statute. I wonder if she will end up getting the death penalty set aside for that reason.