Chicago Police Kill 2 During Domestic Disturbance Call

[bluesneakers]

Why did the cops ring her doorbell when the father (who made the 911 call) was on the second floor?

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/1209315/relatives-2-killed-chicago-police-demand-changes

There might have been two buzzers at the front door and they didn't know which was which, or maybe there's just one buzzer for the main front door.

The more details we get the less sense it makes. If they were right there at the door how did they shoot her by mistake?

Accounts from relatives of the victims and family lawyers differed about what happened. It's not clear whether Jones tried to intervene before being shot or if she was hit while answering the door.

 

[bluesneakers]

Maybe son blamed dad for him being in foster care for years?

A kid can consider you a stranger after being raised in other people's home. Jmo.

The kid was hurting. And even if the foster parents are billionaires. A kid will always cry for mom and dad. Even if the parents are not stable. Jmo.

Maybe he felt that dad should have stayed with him and not go to a Christmas gathering. Idk.

Who doesn't have a fight with a teenaged kid over the holidays?

I mean, this one seems to be more volatile than the ones I've experienced, but they happen regularly and the reasons can be all over the place.

He was hurting, and he was such a good kid and had already accomplished so much. His parents had a lot to be proud of.

 

[katydid23]

We have zero reports stating that the officers even tried to de-escalate. Are we to expect that in a situation with a person who suffers from mental illness, LEO is going to shoot first, no questions asked? Because they... aren't trained? Then maybe we should train them. Mental illness is prevalent, shooting mentally ill people because we don't know how to handle them is not the answer, sorry. Medication and suddenly stopping medication screws up your brain chemistry. It doesn't mean someone deserves to die because of it. JMO.

And we have zero reports that they didn't try to deescalate.

Are there any reports that they shot immediately?

And who said that any one 'deserved to die' for going off their meds? My point is that going off meds without medical supervision can be dangerous as it often causes meltdowns and worse conditions.

 

[bluesneakers]

Nationwide, police have shot and killed 124 people this year who, like Page, were in the throes of mental or emotional crisis, according to a Washington Post analysis. The dead account for a quarter of the 462 people shot to death by police in the first six months of 2015.

...

The dead range in age from 15 to 86. At both ends of that spectrum, the victim was male, suicidal and armed with a gun. On average, police shot and killed someone who was in mental crisis every 36 hours in the first six months of this year. On April 25, three mentally ill men were gunned down within 10 hours.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/06/30/distraught-people-deadly-results/

 

[kimlynn]

I disagree with the bolded above. It does not matter how many others are nearby if someone swings a bat at your head. You can be severely injured in a split second, no matter how many are there as a back up.

I don't know how close the teen was at the time he was shot but I disagree that it was impossible for him to be a threat.

De-escalation is the main goal but it does not always work. Didn't the father also try to diffuse the situation? If the teen had mental issues and had gone off his meds, it might not have been possible for someone to reason with him at that time.

Cops are not psych techs. Yet people expect them to be so, after the fact. And there is no solid and reliable training to rely upon for cops in the streets. NOTHING is going to suddenly make an agitated, angry, ill suspect suddenly trust a cop in a uniform. JMO

We know he was angry with his father but no reports of his feelings regarding LE.
For all we know he trusted them and looked to them for help.
There are reports/articles that say Quintonio called 911 that morning.

 

[katydid23]

We don't even know what meds he was taking or what they were for. If it was something like xanax prn there would be no problem to not take them. Maybe she gave him bad advice, but still I don't see how mom's bad advice equals justification for police officers to shoot and kill two people.

Handling Anxiety Without Xanax | Getting off of Xanax | PBI
www.pbinstitute.com › ... › Medical Detoxification from Drugs & Alcohol
Withdrawal symptoms of Xanax can be potentially life-threatening and can include the following: Sleep disturbances. Memory impairment. Panic and anxiety attacks. Hallucinations (usually visual, but can also be audio and tactile as well) Nausea. Vomiting. Diarrhea. Seizures.

 

[Woodland]

I am not going after her.

Sure you did - in post #111 you said she sounds loony. Not victim friendly imo.

 

[bluesneakers]

We know he was angry with his father but no reports of his feelings regarding LE.
For all we know he trusted them and looked to them for help.
There are reports/articles that say Quintonio called 911 that morning.

I would really like to know more about his call to 911. Why did he call and what was done or not done after he called? Did the officers on the scene know about the earlier call?

 

[kimlynn]

And we have zero reports that they didn't try to deescalate.

Are there any reports that they shot immediately?

And who said that any one 'deserved to die' for going off their meds? My point is that going off meds without medical supervision can be dangerous as it often causes meltdowns and worse conditions.

The audio of dispatcher was posted. Unless the audio was edited to only reflect transmissions regarding that address it was quick. We hear a well being check for that address and shortly after a call from cops of shots fired.
Also family has said that Jones didn't even have her door all the way open before she was hit.
You can see bullet holes in outside door.

 

[flourish]

Handling Anxiety Without Xanax | Getting off of Xanax | PBI
www.pbinstitute.com › ... › Medical Detoxification from Drugs & Alcohol
Withdrawal symptoms of Xanax can be potentially life-threatening and can include the following: Sleep disturbances. Memory impairment. Panic and anxiety attacks. Hallucinations (usually visual, but can also be audio and tactile as well) Nausea. Vomiting. Diarrhea. Seizures.

Hence blue's reference to PRN Xanax. Xanax is frequently taken as needed, so not frequently enough to have withdrawal symptoms if taken as prescribed and weren't needed daily ...that's when you get the problems with getting off of those...

eta: This thread is moving quickly, do we know exactly what and how much and often he was prescribed?

IMO, etc.

 

[kimlynn]

I would really like to know more about his call to 911. Why did he call and what was done or not done after he called? Did the officers on the scene know about the earlier call?

I think a lot of this goes back to what is relayed to officers by the dispatchers. I bet that the father mentioned a possible mental illness issue but it wasn't relayed during the transmission unless it came across their (LE) computer.
I would also like to know why the son called 911 before the father called.

 

[Tawny]

I'm extremely interested in that prior 911 call.

 

[bluesneakers]

Hence blue's reference to PRN Xanax. Xanax is frequently taken as needed, so not frequently enough to have withdrawal symptoms if taken as prescribed and weren't needed daily for a while...that's when you get the problems with getting off of those...

IMO, etc.

She said it was his friends at school who said he was better off when not taking them which makes me think maybe it was adderall (lots of college kids are prescribed this) which can also be taken prn. It can have nasty effects on people who don't need it or can't tolerate it. So yeah, quit taking it if it makes you miserable. I'm not sure stopping a medication within the first month counts as 'cold turkey.' Not without knowing more anyway.

Not that it matters, IMO. Taking or not taking on good or bad advice doesn't justify two deaths at the hands of LE.

 

[DexterMorgan]

I would really like to know more about his call to 911. Why did he call and what was done or not done after he called? Did the officers on the scene know about the earlier call?

All officers get a code and a very brief description. Now back up officers barely get that. Especially while driving to the scene to protect their brothers in blue.

Also. They are showed videos of nice cops that get ambushed and killed for being too trustworthy while pulling over someone or questioning someone.

So these videos make them feel like they should use force first and go home alive.

And this is why they usually shoot first.

They look at the nice cop who got ambushed and kill as a cop who should have been more vigilante.

And this is why most are now toooooo vigilante. Jmo.

They definitely should start carrying tranquilizer guns. Jmo.

 

[Montjoy]

And there is no solid and reliable training to rely upon for cops in the streets. NOTHING is going to suddenly make an agitated, angry, ill suspect suddenly trust a cop in a uniform. JMO

First, you're wrong about the training. It's available, but it's a very low priority for most cops. Plus, it requires some intellectual and social skills.

Second, you may be right that there is NOTHING to make an agitated individual trust a cop. And why should there be, considering the 'shoot first, ask questions later' approach of many cops? Just because someone is mentally ill doesn't mean that s/he is a fool. The distrust that many have of the police has been WELL EARNED by the police themselves.

 

[katydid23]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/06/30/distraught-people-deadly-results/

"The dead range in age from 15 to 86. At both ends of that spectrum, the victim was male, suicidal and armed with a gun. On average, police shot and killed someone who was in mental crisis every 36 hours in the first six months of this year. On April 25, three mentally ill men were gunned down within 10 hours."

So what is your suggestion for a cop to do when confronted by a suicidal male, armed with a gun, while in the throes of a mental/emotional health crisis? It sounds to me that those would be the most volatile and dangerous circumstances for the officers to be facing. They are not psychiatrists. They cannot successfully talk someone down from the edge of a mental breakdown , especially while that someone is brandishing a loaded weapon.

 

[kimlynn]

All officers get a code and a very brief description. Now back up officers barely get that. Especially while driving to the scene to protect their brothers in blue.

Also. They are showed videos of nice cops that get ambushed and killed for being too trustworthy while pulling over someone or questioning someone.

So these videos make them feel like they should use force first and go home alive.

And this is why they usually shoot first.

They look at the nice cop who got ambushed and kill as a cop who should have been more vigilante.

And this is why most are now toooooo vigilante. Jmo.

They definitely should start carrying tranquilizer guns. Jmo.

Tranquilizer guns. Good idea. Something fast acting and non lethal.

 

[kimlynn]

"The dead range in age from 15 to 86. At both ends of that spectrum, the victim was male, suicidal and armed with a gun. On average, police shot and killed someone who was in mental crisis every 36 hours in the first six months of this year. On April 25, three mentally ill men were gunned down within 10 hours."

So what is your suggestion for a cop to do when confronted by a suicidal male, armed with a gun, while in the throes of a mental/emotional health crisis? It sounds to me that those would be the most volatile and dangerous circumstances for the officers to be facing. They are not psychiatrists. They cannot successfully talk someone down from the edge of a mental breakdown , especially while that someone is brandishing a loaded weapon.

In my city they have LE that are trained for these very situations. They are called in and are often able to get the person to put down the weapon or not jump off that bridge.It takes time (hours) but they do it
IMO

 

[katydid23]

First, you're wrong about the training. It's available, but it's a very low priority for most cops. Plus, it requires some intellectual and social skills.

Second, you may be right that there is NOTHING to make an agitated individual trust a cop. And why should there be, considering the 'shoot first, ask questions later' approach of many cops? Just because someone is mentally ill doesn't mean that s/he is a fool. The distrust that many have of the police has been WELL EARNED by the police themselves.

I know there is training, but it's reliability out in there field is questionable.

Also, the distrust is because cops arrest people for drugs, drunk driving, domestic violence. And many of the people that they are in confrontations with have been arrested previously. So it would take a lot for them to trust cops.

If someone is in a mental health crisis but has no violent history then their family would not usually be calling LE for help.

ETA: Also, the distrust that some cops have is well earned by the public as well. They have seen way too many instances of a suspect pulling a hidden knife or grabbing an officers gun or suddenly head butting them. It goes both ways.

 

[katydid23]

In my city they have LE that are trained for these very situations. They are called in and are often able to get the person to put down the weapon or not jump off that bridge.It takes time (hours) but they do it
IMO

We have that too. But sometimes the person presses the issue and they run out of time for that option.