Children's Mugshots from the 1870s

[Cappuccino]

I don't think it's sad at all. I bet those kids never stole again! We need some of the same punishments for the kids today. 7 days of hard labour is a good lesson.

I bet they did steal again. They were stealing through desparation, and without dealing with the underlying cause giving them 7 days hard labour was as much use as sticking an elastoplast on a broken leg.

The good old days indeed. I never get why people hanker after the past - the past was crap, that's why we changed things.

 

[TheDuchess]

I would bet the reason for the formal posing for the portraits was because for these kids it was likely the only time they would ever have a photo taken.

 

[~n/t~]

BBM

I read that as "7 years of hard labour..." instead of 7 days. 7 years for stealing iron??? These people are hard-core!! LOL

#4 Seven days

 

[~n/t~]

I bet they did steal again. They were stealing through desparation, and without dealing with the underlying cause giving them 7 days hard labour was as much use as sticking an elastoplast on a broken leg.

The good old days indeed. I never get why people hanker after the past - the past was crap, that's why we changed things.

Of course it was crap but many will say that today is crap also. Even middle class is struggling to survive today. Do we allow children to go around stealing to survive? No. That's why we have laws.

Thankfully, we have food banks and homeless shelters for those struggling.

 

[Quad]

those photos are absolutely heartbreaking

 

[Elphaba]

Mugshot #2, James Donneley... for some reason he brings to mind Les Miserables' Gavroche. I guess it is the squared shoulders and the defiance in his face... he looks kind of cocky in attitude... like Gavroche.

 

[~n/t~]

Seriously? These children stole out of desperation. They lived in such poverty none of us could ever imagine. I don't care if that poverty was the "norm". Suffering is suffering. If burning in hell was the norm does that mean those who will do anything to escape it, including committing petty crimes, deserve more torture?

7 days of hard labor was enough to kill some of these kids. Kids who were lucky to live past 20 years of age.

How anyone could view this picture and think this little girl deserved 10 days hard labor for stealing a pair of boots, or fail to have pity for her, is beyond me:

I don't know if this is the child who stole the iron but IMO, an iron is hardly a necessity for survival. My parents wore shoes with holes on the soles of their shoes and sometimes none at all because they were so painful to wear. My grandparents would feed the weakest or sick child first in hopes they would survive. She lost one child to illness. They never knew what ailed her but after many years of them describing the symptoms, I would guess appendicitis but who knows. A family of 7 had to share one meal a day and that was all. During the war, those who had fruit trees or cattle were considered "rich". My grandparents were not in that category. My grandfather had to work the farms and if he was lucky, he'd get paid. If not, he'd go home with nothing. My mom would bring bread to the "ovens" for the "rich" and they would give her a loaf when they felt like it, my aunt would clean the "rich" men's hats from the guck accumulated in them and she would get a few cents for it.....and so on and so on.....

I could write for days.....but you know what, even the poorest were the luckiest because they had family and morals. And of course, there were worse victims who had to endure endless suffering physically and emotionally. Hitler's victims.

I'm out of this thread for now.

 

[Donjeta]

I read it as the children stole iron, as in metal material, not an iron. Guessing they wanted to sell it to get money for whatever they needed.

Even if the seven days of hard labor convinced some of them to stop stealing and lead a honest life it probably just meant more of the same: more days and years of hard labor, struggling to make it past the day.

 

[Nova]

I should have clarified. My grandparents and parents weren't born in the USA or Canada. They never stole. I can guarantee you. The war stories would make you cry. They would beg American soldiers for food. Thankfully, Americans is why they survived and lived to tell their story to me and my children. They will NEVER forget.

Effect of World War II on Each Country
Devastation of Europe, Change in Global Balance of Power

http://www.worldology.com/Europe/world_war_2_effect.htm

No, the apology due is mine. I am well aware of the hardships faced by people overseas during WWII. I should not have assumed you were talking about Americans.

I'm not calling your folks liars. But let's be frank: during WWII a lot of people (of all nationalities, including Americans) did things out of desperation that they didn't want to admit in later years.

Since you mention Europe, my understanding is that civilians in the war zones were left to scavenge what they could or starve trying. Scavenging is a form of theft (according to the laws of Britain in 1870, which started this discussion), but who will blame those who did what they had to do to survive?

Are you seriously telling me you believe your forefathers lived through that horror without ever combing the rubble for anything of value they could find?

 

[Nova]

Of course it was crap but many will say that today is crap also. Even middle class is struggling to survive today. Do we allow children to go around stealing to survive? No. That's why we have laws.

Thankfully, we have food banks and homeless shelters for those struggling.

It varies from state to state, but I'm not sure the resources for the destitute are as magnanimous as you seem to imply.

Yes, things are difficult today, but it still doesn't compare to the Victorian era, when there was no welfare, no Social Security, no unemployment insurance, few if any labor laws, no restrictions on child labor, etc. and so forth.

We might further note that our modern concept of "childhood" was just being formed in the mid-1800s (thanks in no small part to the works of Dickens). Until then, children were treated more or less as short adults.

As badhorsie has pointed out, children--with or without working parents--were often left to their own resources.

 

[Nova]

I don't know if this is the child who stole the iron but IMO, an iron is hardly a necessity for survival....

It is if your family's only source of income is taking in laundry for others.

I'm sorry you feel you need to leave the thread. The experiences of your family during tough times are instructive for all of us.

 

[Quiche]

Though that series of photos is thoroughly depressing and heart rending, they are a clear testament to the conditions of Victorian England. The looks on their faces, the rumple of their clothes, the shadows that haunted their eyes-- completely illustrates how far western society has evolved in a short 140 years.

I always say, to myself and my children-- poverty in this country is better than royalty in bygone centuries. The comforts that I enjoy on a daily basis-- the fresh air outside, the carpets beneath my feet, the temperatures inside my home, the upholstered furniture, the thickly padded mattress, the bevy of fluffy pillows, not to mention my comfortable fitting clothes, my closet full of shoes... My good gracious, we are taken such good care of through the distant struggles of previous generations.

I feel gratitude everyday for their sacrifices, their accomplishments, and the forward thinking that brought about the conditions we enjoy today.

We learn...

 

[Elphaba]

When I read that they stole iron, I assumed it was like how people steal copper in this day and time to make money off of. Unfortunately, for way back then, it was all about stealing for survival.

 

[gitana1]

I don't know if this is the child who stole the iron but IMO, an iron is hardly a necessity for survival. My parents wore shoes with holes on the soles of their shoes and sometimes none at all because they were so painful to wear. My grandparents would feed the weakest or sick child first in hopes they would survive. She lost one child to illness. They never knew what ailed her but after many years of them describing the symptoms, I would guess appendicitis but who knows. A family of 7 had to share one meal a day and that was all. During the war, those who had fruit trees or cattle were considered "rich". My grandparents were not in that category. My grandfather had to work the farms and if he was lucky, he'd get paid. If not, he'd go home with nothing. My mom would bring bread to the "ovens" for the "rich" and they would give her a loaf when they felt like it, my aunt would clean the "rich" men's hats from the guck accumulated in them and she would get a few cents for it.....and so on and so on.....

I could write for days.....but you know what, even the poorest were the luckiest because they had family and morals. And of course, there were worse victims who had to endure endless suffering physically and emotionally. Hitler's victims.

I'm out of this thread for now.

My mother is from Holland. She was a child there during WWII. Both of her parents, my grandparents, were members of the Dutch Underground. 500 people were found on the street per day, in Amsterdam, dead of starvation, during the war.

My mom and uncle starved too. They had almost nothing to eat. All the wonderful food being produced in Holland was being taken by the Nazis to Germany.

One day, my grandfather and a few of his underground buddies held up a truck full of goods and food being taken to Germany. I believe they killed the Nazi driver but my grandfather didn't say and I never asked.

The neighborhood had a feast for a few days and death was forestalled a little bit longer.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe there is a special place in heaven for those who would rather starve or freeze to death than steal to survive.

Finally, it's one thing to state that a person would die rather than steal. It's quite another to condemn a child for not having the fortitude to do the same thing and to express satisfaction that they are harshly punished when they cannot bear the pain of poverty one moment longer and succumb to their urge to survive, breaking a law in the process.

There but for the grace of God go I.

 

[gitana1]

Of course it was crap but many will say that today is crap also. Even middle class is struggling to survive today. Do we allow children to go around stealing to survive? No. That's why we have laws.

Thankfully, we have food banks and homeless shelters for those struggling.

Yeah, well they didn't have food banks or homeless shelters back then. You disprove your own point. Clearly, not only were things much worse then than they are today, for the poor they were unbearable, unfathomable.

 

[kdblaisdell]

I teach Social Studies and really, really wish I could have you guys tell your stories to my classes. I will definitely use the site that started this discussion!

 

[Abbey5]

If only they would have used the money that they had paid to have these pics taken to buy food, clothes, shoes, etc... for children in this city.