Christmas Morning Picture of Burke and JB...

[Ames]

Doing just fine, thank you. :dance:

Have you ever wondered if John intended to dispose of JonBenet by taking her in the private plane to Charlevoix (thus denying the Ramseys of her body for a "proper burial" as stated in the ransom note)? Maybe put her in the suitcase or something and take her aboard after it was clear the kidnapper wasn't going to telephone them? Maybe when Arndt asked John Fleet White to look for signs of anything missing or out of order in the home, he decided to "find" JonBenet and let the police think it was still a kidnapping threat but that the body had been there all along?

Just brainstorming here but I still think it's odd they didn't first start looking in the last place JonBenet was known to have been, which was upstairs in her bedroom.

I brought this up on another board, that shall remain nameless...and they ripped me to shreds. I too...at one time...thought that MAYBE....just maybe...John had intended on putting her body in the suitcase, and disposing of it in Lake Michigan. Its not THAT far fetched of an idea. Other posters questioned me concerning...how would they explain JB's absence to Burke? I am sure that they didn't think that far ahead...and when they DID...they nixed that idea.

 

[Ames]

The drawer in question...the one with the medical supplies...was in JAR's bathroom. That is the room Patsy occupied when she had her bout of cancer.

Right...and there were TWO drawers opened....not just one. HMMMMMM

 

[Ames]

Yes, I certainly agree. Another element that suggests staging is John states JonBenet's eyes were closed when he found her in the wine cellar. That's very unusual unless someone closed them for her after death and more unbelievable if she were strangled. Pedophiles and kidnappers aren't apt to care if a victim's eyes are left open or not. It is really odd John mentioned the eyes being closed.

I have never thought of that before. If she was unconscious, from the blow to the head, before the garotte (which I believe is the sequence)....then of course her eyes would have been closed. (Unless other posters know of cases where the eyes remain OPEN during unconsciousness).. Wonder why John felt the need to mention that??

 

[Ames]

but would the ligature have been enough to cut off some of her air supply? b/c the cornoner listed it,along with the head bash,'associated with',as the cause of death. (even though JR lies in DOI and says she died of ligature strangulation).

I think that the Rams thought that when JB was knocked unconscious...since they are/were not in the medical field....they thought that she was dead. I believe that the garotte, DID in fact cut off her air supply. It wouldn't have taken that much pressure on her six year old neck....for her airway to have been shut off.

 

[Albert18]

A few pent-up posts Ames?

I was wondering where you were.

 

[Ames]

A few pent-up posts Ames?

I was wondering where you were.

LOL...my laptop crashed, and I had let a friend of mine use my other one, to take to Los Angeles with her. (And of COURSE, that is when my other one crashes)...and my PC has a virus. I hate computers....But, I am glad to be back...I MISSED MY FAMILY here at WBS.

 

[azwriter]

It is disturbing that no one had to answer for this here on this earth. My belief is it was accidental. I can almost understand an accidental death and be forgiving about it. What I can't understand is the subterfuge to hide the truth. That is what I can not forgive.

It has always puzzled me too about the need to cover an accident. What's wrong with showing up at an emergency room with a child who has injured her head in an accident.
There had to be some strange circumstances surrounding the head injury. Why else would the Ramseys leap to action to cover an accident.
OR..did Patsy feel so remorse and guilty about the head injury she would be sure officials would immediately suspect "child abuse." Because she knew the anger she was feeling was so strong when the accident occured and there was no way she was going to be punished and give up the life she was leading.
Something drove them to go to great lengths to cover that head injury and make it look as if she died at the hands of a stranger with that homemade garrott.
I always come to a dead end when I try to figure out the circumstances of how Jon Benet's head was injured so severly.
I have a stong feeling Patsy had other episodes of rage with her daughter. That final time, it went to far.
JMO

 

[BOESP]

I brought this up on another board, that shall remain nameless...and they ripped me to shreds. I too...at one time...thought that MAYBE....just maybe...John had intended on putting her body in the suitcase, and disposing of it in Lake Michigan. Its not THAT far fetched of an idea. Other posters questioned me concerning...how would they explain JB's absence to Burke? I am sure that they didn't think that far ahead...and when they DID...they nixed that idea.

I can see John weighing the risk of either carrying her out in the luggage or else having her body found (which seems to be serendipitous because John had no idea Arndt would tell him to look for JonBenet). It does sound far-fetched but the Ramseys had to have had some plan to dispose of her body or else explain the body in the basement.

Since she was supposedly kidnapped that should explain to Burke why his sister was missing -- in my earlier post I meant they would fly her out in a suitcase after the kidnapping had been reported, once it was realized the kidnapper wasn't going to call.

 

[BOESP]

I have never thought of that before. If she was unconscious, from the blow to the head, before the garotte (which I believe is the sequence)....then of course her eyes would have been closed. (Unless other posters know of cases where the eyes remain OPEN during unconsciousness).. Wonder why John felt the need to mention that??

Even if she had been unconscious, once she was clinically dead, her eyes would have been apt to open at least part way. Relaxation followed by rigor tends to make the eyes appear to be open or at least partially so and the mouth to be partly open as well.

 

[BOESP]

I think that the Rams thought that when JB was knocked unconscious...since they are/were not in the medical field....they thought that she was dead. I believe that the garotte, DID in fact cut off her air supply. It wouldn't have taken that much pressure on her six year old neck....for her airway to have been shut off.

That's how I see it too, Ames.

 

[BOESP]

It has always puzzled me too about the need to cover an accident. What's wrong with showing up at an emergency room with a child who has injured her head in an accident.
There had to be some strange circumstances surrounding the head injury. Why else would the Ramseys leap to action to cover an accident.
OR..did Patsy feel so remorse and guilty about the head injury she would be sure officials would immediately suspect "child abuse." Because she knew the anger she was feeling was so strong when the accident occured and there was no way she was going to be punished and give up the life she was leading.
Something drove them to go to great lengths to cover that head injury and make it look as if she died at the hands of a stranger with that homemade garrott.
I always come to a dead end when I try to figure out the circumstances of how Jon Benet's head was injured so severly.
I have a stong feeling Patsy had other episodes of rage with her daughter. That final time, it went to far.
JMO

I can only speculate, but I suspect had they taken JonBenet to the emergency room they were afraid of the questions that would be asked. If so, it's strange they couldn't think up a story for an ER team yet they could plan a far-fetched kidnap/ransom scheme. It always makes me wonder who they were protecting and why. I believe they thought she was either already dead or dying and that taking her to the hospital would not save JonBenet, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Ames]

I can see John weighing the risk of either carrying her out in the luggage or else having her body found (which seems to be serendipitous because John had no idea Arndt would tell him to look for JonBenet). It does sound far-fetched but the Ramseys had to have had some plan to dispose of her body or else explain the body in the basement.

Since she was supposedly kidnapped that should explain to Burke why his sister was missing -- in my earlier post I meant they would fly her out in a suitcase after the kidnapping had been reported, once it was realized the kidnapper wasn't going to call.

I suggested that too...on "the other board"...and they said..."how would they have explained, continuing on with their trip....when their daughter had been kidnapped". My answer to that is...John made a "remaining family" reservation...right after the body was found...and then was told....UH, John....you ain't goin' nowhere. So whats the difference? Make a trip, carrying a suitcase with your dead daughter tucked inside...to dispose of, while she is supposedly "missing"...and if questions arise...which they would have....make something up, or make a reservation for a "remaining family" trip....when your daughter is found dead in your home. It all comes down to being a very COLD, evil person that could do this.

 

[Ames]

That's how I see it too, Ames.

I believe that they had NO IDEA that the garotte was actually cutting off her airway....since, IMO...they thought that she was ALREADY dead...and the garotte was supposed to be for staging purposes ONLY! IMO

 

[DeeDee249]

There had to be more to it (as most of us believe here) for the Rs NOT to take her to a hospital or call 911 after the head bash. Yes, an accident would not have resulted in charges being filed UNLESS the autopsy disclosed anything that would have indicated foul play. Such as vaginal bruising, erosion of the hymen, and marks on her neck where PR grabbed her and twisted the shirt (if that happened). The Rs knew there were things that would be seen that would have resulted in their being arrested. So they had to finish the job and make it believable. Though the head bash would have killed her eventualy, the Rs didn't know that and they thought she WAS dead when they applied the ligature.
Pressure on the vegus nerve in the neck CAN cause loss of consciousness and actually cause heart failure. This is one of the main reasons why some people practicing auto-erotic asphyxiation DO die, when they have not intended to commit suicide. Many of these cases are put down for suicides, because no one can determine exactly what the deceased was intending. But that ligature was not tied tight enough to actually cause her death in and of itself.
Her mouth is shown as open in the autopsy photos. We cannot see her eyes, but yes, rigor mortis would cause the eyelids to open. However, an UNCONCIOUS person usually has closed eyes, as the muscles of the entire body, including the eyelids, relax. A dead person will have opened eyes during rigor and eyes do not automatically close at death. If a person's eyes are open when they died, the eyelids will remain open. Funeral technicians use a special glue to keep a dead person's eyelids closed for viewing. There is quite a commotion in the viewing room if the glue fails, let me tell you!

 

[Ames]

I can only speculate, but I suspect had they taken JonBenet to the emergency room they were afraid of the questions that would be asked. If so, it's strange they couldn't think up a story for an ER team yet they could plan a far-fetched kidnap/ransom scheme. It always makes me wonder who they were protecting and why. I believe they thought she was either already dead or dying and that taking her to the hospital would not save JonBenet, but that's just my opinion.

I agree with your opinion, I think that's why they didn't take her to the ER....they thought that she was already dead. And they would have had alot of splaining to do...if they had of taken her to the ER. Why would they have risked going to jail? Because if they had of taken ...what they thought was JB's dead body, into the ER...ALOT of questions would have been asked, and their butts would have been thrown in jail. SOOOO...to keep their butts out of jail, they decide that its better to just stage a crimescene, and cross their fingers, and hope that it works....and it did.

 

[Ames]

There had to be more to it (as most of us believe here) for the Rs NOT to take her to a hospital or call 911 after the head bash. Yes, an accident would not have resulted in charges being filed UNLESS the autopsy disclosed anything that would have indicated foul play. Such as vaginal bruising, erosion of the hymen, and marks on her neck where PR grabbed her and twisted the shirt (if that happened). The Rs knew there were things that would be seen that would have resulted in their being arrested. So they had to finish the job and make it believable. Though the head bash would have killed her eventualy, the Rs didn't know that and they thought she WAS dead when they applied the ligature.
Pressure on the vegus nerve in the neck CAN cause loss of consciousness and actually cause heart failure. This is one of the main reasons why some people practicing auto-erotic asphyxiation DO die, when they have not intended to commit suicide. Many of these cases are put down for suicides, because no one can determine exactly what the deceased was intending. But that ligature was not tied tight enough to actually cause her death in and of itself.
Her mouth is shown as open in the autopsy photos. We cannot see her eyes, but yes, rigor mortis would cause the eyelids to open. However, an UNCONCIOUS person usually has closed eyes, as the muscles of the entire body, including the eyelids, relax. A dead person will have opened eyes during rigor and eyes do not automatically close at death. If a person's eyes are open when they died, the eyelids will remain open. Funeral technicians use a special glue to keep a dead person's eyelids closed for viewing. There is quite a commotion in the viewing room if the glue fails, let me tell you!

Yep, that would sure scare the heck out of me...I would be jumping over people to get outta there.

When my mom died, her eyes were open...my sister closed them, and they stayed shut, I guess because it was before rigor started to set in. I am sure though, that at the funeral home, they glued her eyes shut....and I hear that they also glue the mouth shut also. In the old days....WAY before I was born...LOL..they use to SEW them closed. EWWWW

 

[DeeDee249]

Yep, that would sure scare the heck out of me...I would be jumping over people to get outta there.

When my mom died, her eyes were open...my sister closed them, and they stayed shut, I guess because it was before rigor started to set in. I am sure though, that at the funeral home, they glued her eyes shut....and I hear that they also glue the mouth shut also. In the old days....WAY before I was born...LOL..they use to SEW them closed. EWWWW

They also tied a cloth from under the chin to the top of the head to keep the mouth closed. The coins placed on the eyes of the dead were put there to pay the "Ferryman" who takes the dead across the River Styx. But they may have served to keep the eyes closed as well.

 

[Ames]

They also tied a cloth from under the chin to the top of the head to keep the mouth closed. The coins placed on the eyes of the dead were put there to pay the "Ferryman" who takes the dead across the River Styx. But they may have served to keep the eyes closed as well.

I believe that I saw that "coin trick"...on an old Western once. And the part about the "Ferryman" who takes the dead across the River Styx....just flat out gives me the creeps. Although, I did used to listen the the band STYX...and that's where they got their name from. They weren't scary though. LOL

 

[BOESP]

I suggested that too...on "the other board"...and they said..."how would they have explained, continuing on with their trip....when their daughter had been kidnapped". My answer to that is...John made a "remaining family" reservation...right after the body was found...and then was told....UH, John....you ain't goin' nowhere. So whats the difference? Make a trip, carrying a suitcase with your dead daughter tucked inside...to dispose of, while she is supposedly "missing"...and if questions arise...which they would have....make something up, or make a reservation for a "remaining family" trip....when your daughter is found dead in your home. It all comes down to being a very COLD, evil person that could do this.

I don't think taking an after-the-fact trip would have required much explanation. They were able to get the heck out of Dodge almost immediately after JonBenet's body was found. Had her body NOT been "discovered," it would certainly have been easier to pick up three or four suitcases after the kidnapper failed to call and simply explain that Patsy couldn't bear to stay in that big old house after what happened. She'd be terrified that someone might come back, yada, yada, yada.

They had to have a plan and that means they were either going to dispose of the body or else figure out a way to find the body in the basement and figure out at what time of day it should be discovered. Linda Arndt just helped them along and I think that's why John bee-lined it to the exact room in the basement instead of starting at the logical place, which would have been on the second floor where JonBenet was last known to have been. I think this is why Arndt thought John was in such deep thought as she watched him on that day -- he was trying to decide what to do and how to do it, in my opinion.

 

[Ames]

I don't think taking an after-the-fact trip would have required much explanation. They were able to get the heck out of Dodge almost immediately after JonBenet's body was found. Had her body NOT been "discovered," it would certainly have been easier to pick up three or four suitcases after the kidnapper failed to call and simply explain that Patsy couldn't bear to stay in that big old house after what happened. She'd be terrified that someone might come back, yada, yada, yada.

They had to have a plan and that means they were either going to dispose of the body or else figure out a way to find the body in the basement and figure out at what time of day it should be discovered. Linda Arndt just helped them along and I think that's why John bee-lined it to the exact room in the basement instead of starting at the logical place, which would have been on the second floor where JonBenet was last known to have been. I think this is why Arndt thought John was in such deep thought as she watched him on that day -- he was trying to decide what to do and how to do it, in my opinion.

Yeah, you have a valid point there. That would have made sense...they had to get out of that HOUSE!!!

I wonder why they didn't go with the plan to put the body in the suitcase...they may have been afraid that they would have been searched. If they had of done that, and JB's body had never been found...I don't believe that they would be the suspects that they are today. OH YEAH..and if Patsy hadn't of written that long, stupid, rambling RN.