Christmas Morning Picture of Burke and JB...

[coloradokares]

Can we do a citizens arrest on the stager? I think we have more than enough evidence.

I for one think that should be allowed as all this malarky should never have been tolerated this long!

 

[DeeDee249]

Doesn't Boulder WANT to solve the case?

NO.

They want it to fade away.

 

[becklynn]

Could it show the flashlight they claim was not theirs?

 

[BOESP]

How about a roll of duct tape or length of white cord?

 

[Toltec]

What if she just put it on her to keep her warm, though. It has been stated in one of the Ramsey's interviews, that they had to dress her warmly, because she kicked the cover off. Maybe she put it on her for that reason....but, not particularly for her to wear the next morning. She may have put it on her, and if she had of kept it dry, she was planning on letting her wear it the next morning, but if she wet the bed, her original plan could have been to let her wear something else if it got wet. But, for whatever reason, too many drinks at the White's party, or whatever....she flew into her rage. I think that JB was accidently shoved into the side of the tub or sink, as Patsy was taking off her shirt...that's why it was balled up on the bathroom counter. Everything ELSE JB ever wore, or took off...ended up on her bedroom floor, including the pants that she had worn that day, with the panties inside of them (with the stain, where she didn't wipe good)....the vest that she wore to the Whites, over the white gap shirt, etc. SO WHY would the red turtleneck end up on the bathroom counter? Because she was obviously in the bathroom when it was removed, if JB had of taken it off, because she didn't want to wear it to match Patsy...(as Patsy said)...I believe it would have ended up on her BEDROOM FLOOR...along with all of her other clothes that she had taken off. The fact that it was ON the BATHROOM COUNTER...leads me to believe that Patsy is the one that took it off of her. And was probably yanking it, because she was pissed....and that's when the accident happened. imo

Patsy claimed JonBenets room was too warm and she would often kick the covers off.

Patsy might have put on the red turtleneck and soiled pants on JonBenet that night so she could just get up and go the next day. It was wintertime in Boulder and Michigan so the red turtleneck and pants made sense.

My belief is that Patsy woke JonBenet at her usual time, midnight, for a toilet run. She discovers that JonBenet pooped her pants (most likely caused by eating pineapple) so she has JonBenet undress. Patsy then balls up the red turtleneck and throws it on the counter. JonBenet takes off her pants and places them behind the toilet on a shelf. Patsy then wants to bathe JonBenet but JonBenet wants no part in that. Patsy then struggles to get JonBenet into the tub and JonBenet screams bloody murder. An enraged Patsy then hits her over the head, or possibly pushes her into the tub.

I want to let everybody know that as I read the interview, a Detective asks Patsy if she noticed JonBenets table lamp had been on. Apparently the police took a picture of JonBenet's room and her lamp on her nightstand was on???

 

[DeeDee249]

That's a good catch (about the lit table lamp). I assume it refers to the one on her nightstand between the twin beds. PR had said in an interview that JBR slept without a night light, but that they usually left hallway lights on and her door ajar so it wouldn't be pitch dark in there.
I recall the interview where LE asked PR about the bedroom door and lights, but don't remember if PR said JBR's bedroom door was slightly open (as was usual) or closed tight.

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy claimed JonBenets room was too warm and she would often kick the covers off.

Patsy might have put on the red turtleneck and soiled pants on JonBenet that night so she could just get up and go the next day. It was wintertime in Boulder and Michigan so the red turtleneck and pants made sense.

My belief is that Patsy woke JonBenet at her usual time, midnight, for a toilet run. She discovers that JonBenet pooped her pants (most likely caused by eating pineapple) so she has JonBenet undress. Patsy then balls up the red turtleneck and throws it on the counter. JonBenet takes off her pants and places them behind the toilet on a shelf. Patsy then wants to bathe JonBenet but JonBenet wants no part in that. Patsy then struggles to get JonBenet into the tub and JonBenet screams bloody murder. An enraged Patsy then hits her over the head, or possibly pushes her into the tub.

I want to let everybody know that as I read the interview, a Detective asks Patsy if she noticed JonBenets table lamp had been on. Apparently the police took a picture of JonBenet's room and her lamp on her nightstand was on???

Toltec,

Apparently the police took a picture of JonBenet's room and her lamp on her nightstand was on???

By the time the police pictures had been taken the whole house had been trampled over and corrupted by tom, dick, and harry looking for JonBenet.

If your toilet rage theory is correct, what happened to JonBenet's underwear, and whatever else she was wearing, why was the alleged crime-scene not cleaned up?


.

 

[BOESP]

Toltec,

By the time the police pictures had been taken the whole house had been trampled over and corrupted by tom, dick, and harry looking for JonBenet.

If your toilet rage theory is correct, what happened to JonBenet's underwear, and whatever else she was wearing, why was the alleged crime-scene not cleaned up?


.

What would have been there to clean up? Possibly body fluids (blood and mucous) from JonBenet's head injury (nose bleed, vomitus, etc.) She was wiped down and we assume the cloth/material was disposed of. Her underwear could easily have been smuggled out in Paty's pocketbook, coat pocket, stuffed under Patsy's clothing, disposed of before calling police.

I doubt there was much to clean up but maybe it's too early for me to be thinking clearly. :crazy:

 

[Solace]

What would have been there to clean up? Possibly body fluids (blood and mucous) from JonBenet's head injury (nose bleed, vomitus, etc.) She was wiped down and we assume the cloth/material was disposed of. Her underwear could easily have been smuggled out in Paty's pocketbook, coat pocket, stuffed under Patsy's clothing, disposed of before calling police.

I doubt there was much to clean up but maybe it's too early for me to be thinking clearly. :crazy:

What is to clean up? There was no blood from the head wound. Were there not black pants that JB wore on the bathroom floor? That also looked dirty, Patsy remarks about this to Haney, I believe? Is it possible that she did not wear underwear that day at all? Please bear with me. This case, you know....

 

[JMO8778]

She probably did bleed from the nose,maybe mouth and ears too,but rem. when Ames posted the symptoms of a head injury,those were listed,and then Patsy,in one of the interviews,was q'd about her med. supply drawer being left open.I surmise she may have used some of those items to wipe blood away,and then the garotte takes on the most visible form of death,not the head injury..as I believe she and JR wanted it.

 

[Squishified]

She probably did bleed from the nose,maybe mouth and ears too,but rem. when Ames posted the symptoms of a head injury,those were listed,and then Patsy,in one of the interviews,was q'd about her med. supply drawer being left open.I surmise she may have used some of those items to wipe blood away,and then the garotte takes on the most visible form of death,not the head injury..as I believe she and JR wanted it.

I think you are right.
And about the med. supply drawer--are there pictures of it? I KNOW Patsy used something from that drawer that night. I just don't know what. Could have been rubbbing alcohol, or rubber gloves or ????
Any other thoughts?

 

[JMO8778]

I think you are right.
And about the med. supply drawer--are there pictures of it? I KNOW Patsy used something from that drawer that night. I just don't know what. Could have been rubbbing alcohol, or rubber gloves or ????
Any other thoughts?

I'm thinking gauze,alcohol wipes,etc,esp. lint free ones.I bet Patsy would have had those items from her chemo treatments.I bet she also knew sterile technique,which would allow her to wipe her down without leaving any of her own forensic evidence on her.

 

[BOESP]

What is to clean up? There was no blood from the head wound. Were there not black pants that JB wore on the bathroom floor? That also looked dirty, Patsy remarks about this to Haney, I believe? Is it possible that she did not wear underwear that day at all? Please bear with me. This case, you know....

I'll give you all the time you need, Sol.

I haven't seen any crime scene photos of JonBenet's bathroom, but I'd sure like to.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think you are right.
And about the med. supply drawer--are there pictures of it? I KNOW Patsy used something from that drawer that night. I just don't know what. Could have been rubbbing alcohol, or rubber gloves or ????
Any other thoughts?

I am sure I saw somewhere PR being asked about that exact photo- of her bathroom and that particular drawer being open. I think she was asked about latex gloves, so maybe they were visible in the drawer.
In my mind, PR and JR probably never thought there would BE crime scene photos taken of their home. All their energies went into portraying their daughter's disappearence as a kidnapping and their daughter's murder as a kidnapping-gone-wrong/sexual assault-gone wrong. They actually thought that the "discovery" of JBR's body would push the focus away from anyone in the home (i.e. them or BR) or the home itself. I think they really thought that there would be nothing more than the coroner removing the body, and LE going to work on the ever-increasing list of "suspects" that the Rs provided. After all, they had staged a very visible cause of death- the garrotte. The head bash was NOT visible, nor was any significant blood oozing from her mouth, ears, nose. All there was, and only upon the coroner's imspection, was "tan mucous" in the nose and mouth. Now, if it had been tested (who knows?) certainly blood would have been seen in the mucous. Mucous from those areas is not usually "tan". But mixed with blood, it would be "tan" after a while, as red blood turns brownish in a short time.
Two "smoking guns", IMO - the pineapple in her digestive tract and the fuss made over the too-big panties surprised the Rs, they had not expected it to be noticed. So from that point, they were focused on distancing themselves from those events by lying about the pineapple, bowl, spoon, kleenex, etc. Basically EVERYTHING on that table!

 

[UKGuy]

I am sure I saw somewhere PR being asked about that exact photo- of her bathroom and that particular drawer being open. I think she was asked about latex gloves, so maybe they were visible in the drawer.
In my mind, PR and JR probably never thought there would BE crime scene photos taken of their home. All their energies went into portraying their daughter's disappearence as a kidnapping and their daughter's murder as a kidnapping-gone-wrong/sexual assault-gone wrong. They actually thought that the "discovery" of JBR's body would push the focus away from anyone in the home (i.e. them or BR) or the home itself. I think they really thought that there would be nothing more than the coroner removing the body, and LE going to work on the ever-increasing list of "suspects" that the Rs provided. After all, they had staged a very visible cause of death- the garrotte. The head bash was NOT visible, nor was any significant blood oozing from her mouth, ears, nose. All there was, and only upon the coroner's imspection, was "tan mucous" in the nose and mouth. Now, if it had been tested (who knows?) certainly blood would have been seen in the mucous. Mucous from those areas is not usually "tan". But mixed with blood, it would be "tan" after a while, as red blood turns brownish in a short time.
Two "smoking guns", IMO - the pineapple in her digestive tract and the fuss made over the too-big panties surprised the Rs, they had not expected it to be noticed. So from that point, they were focused on distancing themselves from those events by lying about the pineapple, bowl, spoon, kleenex, etc. Basically EVERYTHING on that table!

DeeDee249,

Two "smoking guns", IMO - the pineapple in her digestive tract and the fuss made over the too-big panties surprised the Rs

The loudest Smoking Gun is that JonBenet was wiped down, removing forensic evidence relating to her sexual assault. Now why would a sexually motivated intruder who also garroted his victim bother to wipe his victim down then redress her in underwear that only Patsy had direct knowledge of?

.

 

[JMO8778]

DeeDee249,

The loudest Smoking Gun is that JonBenet was wiped down, removing forensic evidence relating to her sexual assault. Now why would a sexually motivated intruder who also garroted his victim bother to wipe his victim down then redress her in underwear that only Patsy had direct knowledge of?

.

to rid of any of their own dna evidence (yes, I know there was no semen found on her),same reason the *new pair of underwear was put on her,even though it was way too big..the fact it was new overrode all else,the fact they said Wed. on them was just an added bonus,IMO.
I believe the clothes she was found in,at least the longjohns and blanket ,had been washed for the same reason,even if it wasn't that night.

 

[Toltec]

I am sure I saw somewhere PR being asked about that exact photo- of her bathroom and that particular drawer being open. I think she was asked about latex gloves, so maybe they were visible in the drawer.
In my mind, PR and JR probably never thought there would BE crime scene photos taken of their home. All their energies went into portraying their daughter's disappearence as a kidnapping and their daughter's murder as a kidnapping-gone-wrong/sexual assault-gone wrong. They actually thought that the "discovery" of JBR's body would push the focus away from anyone in the home (i.e. them or BR) or the home itself. I think they really thought that there would be nothing more than the coroner removing the body, and LE going to work on the ever-increasing list of "suspects" that the Rs provided. After all, they had staged a very visible cause of death- the garrotte. The head bash was NOT visible, nor was any significant blood oozing from her mouth, ears, nose. All there was, and only upon the coroner's imspection, was "tan mucous" in the nose and mouth. Now, if it had been tested (who knows?) certainly blood would have been seen in the mucous. Mucous from those areas is not usually "tan". But mixed with blood, it would be "tan" after a while, as red blood turns brownish in a short time.
Two "smoking guns", IMO - the pineapple in her digestive tract and the fuss made over the too-big panties surprised the Rs, they had not expected it to be noticed. So from that point, they were focused on distancing themselves from those events by lying about the pineapple, bowl, spoon, kleenex, etc. Basically EVERYTHING on that table!

The drawer in question...the one with the medical supplies...was in JAR's bathroom. That is the room Patsy occupied when she had her bout of cancer.

 

[Solace]

I'll give you all the time you need, Sol.

I haven't seen any crime scene photos of JonBenet's bathroom, but I'd sure like to.

Thank you. How are you doing these days?

 

[BOESP]

Thank you. How are you doing these days?

Doing just fine, thank you. :dance:

Have you ever wondered if John intended to dispose of JonBenet by taking her in the private plane to Charlevoix (thus denying the Ramseys of her body for a "proper burial" as stated in the ransom note)? Maybe put her in the suitcase or something and take her aboard after it was clear the kidnapper wasn't going to telephone them? Maybe when Arndt asked John Fleet White to look for signs of anything missing or out of order in the home, he decided to "find" JonBenet and let the police think it was still a kidnapping threat but that the body had been there all along?

Just brainstorming here but I still think it's odd they didn't first start looking in the last place JonBenet was known to have been, which was upstairs in her bedroom.

 

[coloradokares]

I am sure I saw somewhere PR being asked about that exact photo- of her bathroom and that particular drawer being open. I think she was asked about latex gloves, so maybe they were visible in the drawer.
In my mind, PR and JR probably never thought there would BE crime scene photos taken of their home. All their energies went into portraying their daughter's disappearence as a kidnapping and their daughter's murder as a kidnapping-gone-wrong/sexual assault-gone wrong. They actually thought that the "discovery" of JBR's body would push the focus away from anyone in the home (i.e. them or BR) or the home itself. I think they really thought that there would be nothing more than the coroner removing the body, and LE going to work on the ever-increasing list of "suspects" that the Rs provided. After all, they had staged a very visible cause of death- the garrotte. The head bash was NOT visible, nor was any significant blood oozing from her mouth, ears, nose. All there was, and only upon the coroner's imspection, was "tan mucous" in the nose and mouth. Now, if it had been tested (who knows?) certainly blood would have been seen in the mucous. Mucous from those areas is not usually "tan". But mixed with blood, it would be "tan" after a while, as red blood turns brownish in a short time.
Two "smoking guns", IMO - the pineapple in her digestive tract and the fuss made over the too-big panties surprised the Rs, they had not expected it to be noticed. So from that point, they were focused on distancing themselves from those events by lying about the pineapple, bowl, spoon, kleenex, etc. Basically EVERYTHING on that table!

One of the things about this murder that sticks out was the absence of damage to the internal structures of the neck. In that sense this was not a true garroting, if you will. the Hyoid bone was intact if she had been truley with purpose garroted vs that being part of the staging, damage would have been much worse in my opinion.