Christmas Morning Picture of Burke and JB...

[Ames]

Oh, yes, that's probably right. I know there is some conjecture that maybe she was slammed accidentally in a rage. But honestly, that skull fracture is SO massive I just can't see it happening that way. Unless she fell from a great distance. Or down those spiral stairs. But then there'd be lots of bruising, and possibly other broken or fractured bones.
No, I believe she was bashed. Either with the huge flashlight, golf club, baseball bat or ....(and this really intrigues me) the log grabber that appears on the floor near where the body was in the crime scene photos of the wineceller.

I will have to see if I can dig up that partial list of evidence that was taken from the Ramsey home. It is on a thread, somewhere on here...I think. Unless I posted it on CrimeLibrary...I posted it MONTHS ago, and I can't remember where I put it. LOL I guess that I could do a search. Anyway, if I can find it again, I will look to see if the log grabber was taken into evidence. Then only thing about that though....is that what ever she was hit with...or whatever she fell on, had to have been blunt, to have not caused her skin to break. That's what I find odd....all of that damage done to her skull, but NO BREAK in the skin. GO FIGURE...

 

[BBB167893]

I don't know if I buy the scenerio of Patsy aiming for John, but hitting JB instead....John is a much bigger target....how in the world could she have missed him??

Maybe it wasn't like that. Maybe she intended to hit her. Maybe she saw her as a rival, I don't know.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe it wasn't like that. Maybe she intended to hit her. Maybe she saw her as a rival, I don't know.

SuperDave,

Either do I know, but since Patsy had lost interest in sex, due partially to her chemo, and a distaste for Johns personal preference, why should JonBenet become a rival, a rival to what?

At precisely this period in time JonBenet was being groomed to adopt adult female poses, wear makeup, pout, rub herself suggestively, color her hair, wear provocative clothes, dance seductively etc.

When Patsy thought that JonBenet needed a portfolio – Pam Griffin offers to take JonBenet to a pageant & Patsy said no thanks, Pam told the police JonBenet had to be with her family and Patsy told her when the Royal Miss nationals moved to Las Vegas that John didn’t want his six-year-old daughter exposed to Vegas.

So John was pretty much aware of what was going on.

.

 

[rashomon]

[bolding mine] [BOESP] My friend and I talked about that. Her speculation was the mother went into the room with the flashlight during the nightly "potty run," saw what was going on, went into a rage, aimed at the father's head and the father turned or arose. At that moment, the momentum from swinging the flashlight was in force and JonBenet was hit instead because the original target (the father) moved. This conversation was only a couple of weeks after JonBenet died so there wasn't much for outsiders to go on - we were just brainstorming because of mutual interest in these type things.

Remember, this was my friend's first speculation, not mine, and we were bouncing around ideas, so I can only address what we discussed. If you want me to ask her a specific question, just let me know. Her second idea was bed-wetting rage (this was long before Steve Thomas wrote his book). She told me bed-wetting is a common precursor to the rage that precipitates many cases of child abuse, particularly with over-stressed mothers who would not otherwise lay a hand on a child. At the time (January 1997) I told my friend that my suspicions were on the father being the killer or else the sibling was involved and both parents were protecting him. As you know, no one yet really knows and we were just two friends discussing something dear to our hearts - child protection.

I still think Steve Thomas knows of evidence that led him to conclude Patsy may have done this in a rage. Thomas's opinion, coupled with the skills I know my friend has in this area, makes me lean toward Patsy. I just wish we had access to the evidence locker.

[Ames] I don't know if I buy the scenerio of Patsy aiming for John, but hitting JB instead....John is a much bigger target....how in the world could she have missed him??

[SuperDave] Maybe it wasn't like that. Maybe she intended to hit her. Maybe she saw her as a rival, I don't know.

I too have a hard time figuring that this type of blow was originally meant to strike another target, i. e. John, but hit JonBenet instead.

BOESP, a question for your friend: does she think it possible that Patsy, on catching John molesting JonBenet, directed her rage against her daughter instead? Patsy often dressed up JonBenet in sexy women's clothes (the Las Vegas showgirl outfit for example), so could it be that she, seeing what was going on, reacted to JonBenet as if she were a female rival, snapping and losing it in a blind rage against her daughter?

 

[UKGuy]

I too have a hard time figuring that this type of blow was originally meant to strike another target, i. e. John, but hit JonBenet instead.

BOESP, a question for your friend: does she think it possible that Patsy, on catching John molesting JonBenet, directed her rage against her daughter instead?

rashomon,

What if she already knew what was going on, what if JonBenet had already told her, what if she had spun some tale to JonBenet to justify it, accompanied with all the pageant routines?

Why direct your rage towards your beloved 6-year old daughter, when you yourself are particpating in teaching her adult behaviour and poses beyond her years?

.

 

[rashomon]

SuperDave,

Either do I know, but since Patsy had lost interest in sex, due partially to her chemo, and a distaste for Johns personal preference, why should JonBenet become a rival, a rival to what?

At precisely this period in time JonBenet was being groomed to adopt adult female poses, wear makeup, pout, rub herself suggestively, color her hair, wear provocative clothes, dance seductively etc.

When Patsy thought that JonBenet needed a portfolio – Pam Griffin offers to take JonBenet to a pageant & Patsy said no thanks, Pam told the police JonBenet had to be with her family and Patsy told her when the Royal Miss nationals moved to Las Vegas that John didn’t want his six-year-old daughter exposed to Vegas.

So John was pretty much aware of what was going on.

UKGuy,

but isn't that seeing things a little too simplistic?
First of all, we don't know anything definite about 'John's preferences'. It is true that a woman (Kimberly Ballard I think is her name) once said John allegedly liked her to dress like a little girl, but how credible is this woman? She could be just another of the many people who wanted their share of media attention in the JBR hype.
LHP said Patsy complained to her about having lost interest in sex with John, and LHP suggested she buy some videos to spice up their sex life. I always thought it a little strange that Patsy would confide such intimate things to her housekeeper, but then I know that quite a few women are indeed on very confidential terms with their housekeepers.
Even if we assume that LHP told the truth here - so Patsy complained about hers and John's sex life. But this is nothing so very unusual, for even without stressors like chemo, people go through various phases and fluctuations in that area. So suppose Patsy was exhausted, stressed-out, and in the wake of it her sex life suffered somewhat - but still it is a VERY VERY big (and horrible and perverted!) step of action to then simply decide to pimp her own daughter to her husband so that at least he should stay 'satisfied'. Something just doesn't add up here imo.

It is true that Patsy liked to dress up JonBenet in sexy female outfits, but I don't think she actually wanted to pimp JonBenet to ANYONE. I believe her dressing up JonBenet in such clothes was meant to reflect back on Patsy as the beautiful mother who had produced such a beautiful child.
Of course these outfits were meant to 'tease' - they would bring points in the jury's eyes - sex sells, and certainly Patsy overstepped the line here. Presenting one's child like that is already a form of child abuse imo.
But even with all that said, I still have difficulty figuring that Patsy would have allowed anyone to actively molest JonBenet. I believe Patsy would have felt insulted in her own narcissism if anyone had dared to do that.
I also believe that the older JonBenet would have gotten, the more jealous Patsy would have become of her.

If John did not want JonBenet to be exposed to Las Vegas, wouldn't this speak in favor of him and show that he was concerned about his daughter?

 

[Albert18]

It is true that Patsy liked to dress up JonBenet in sexy female outfits, but I don't think she actually wanted to pimp JonBenet to ANYONE. I believe her dressing up JonBenet in such clothes was meant to reflect back on Patsy as the beautiful mother who had produced such a beautiful child.
Of course these outfits were meant to 'tease' - they would bring points in the jury's eyes - sex sells, and certainly Patsy overstepped the line here. Presenting one's child like that is already a form of child abuse imo.
But even with all that said, I still have difficulty figuring that Patsy would have allowed anyone to actively molest JonBenet. I believe Patsy would have felt insulted in her own narcissism if anyone had dared to do that.
I also believe that the older JonBenet would have gotten, the more jealous Patsy would have become of her.

I think you have hit on a very important point here Rash. Sexy and sex don't always have anything to do with each other. Sometimes (Usually?) those sexy women are as cold as a cadaver behind closed doors. I think what Patsy was doing with JonBenet was strictly a sexy veneer. She was developing and peddling an image. The end justified the means.

 

[Ames]

UKGuy,

but isn't that seeig things a little too simplistic?
First of all, we don't know anything definite about 'John's preferences'. It is true that a woman (Kimberly Ballard I think is her name) once said John allegedly liked her to dress like a little girl, but how credible is this woman? She could be just another of the many people who wanted their share of media attention in the JBR hype.
LHP said Patsy complained to her about having lost interest in sex with John, and LHP suggested she buy some videos to spice up their sex life. I always thought it a little strange that Patsy would confide such intimate things to her housekeeper, but then I know that quite a few women are indeed on very confidential terms with their housekeepers.
Even if we assume that LHP told the truth here - so Patsy complained about hers and John's sex life. But this is nothing so very unusual, for even without stressors like chemo, people go through various phases and fluctuations in that area. So suppose Patsy was exhausted, stressed-out, and in the wake of it her sex life suffered somewhat - but still it is a VERY VERY big (and horrible and perverted!) step of action to then simply decide to pimp her own daughter to her husband so that at least he should stay 'satisfied'. Something just doesn't add up here imo.

It is true that Patsy liked to dress up JonBenet in sexy female outfits, but I don't think she actually wanted to pimp JonBenet to ANYONE. I believe her dressing up JonBenet in such clothes was meant to reflect back on Patsy as the beautiful mother who had produced such a beautiful child.
Of course these outfits were meant to 'tease' - they would bring points in the jury's eyes - sex sells, and certainly Patsy overstepped the line here. Presenting one's child like that is already a form of child abuse imo.
But even with all that said, I still have difficulty figuring that Patsy would have allowed anyone to actively molest JonBenet. I believe Patsy would have felt insulted in her own narcissism if anyone had dared to do that.
I also believe that the older JonBenet would have gotten, the more jealous Patsy would have become of her.

If John did not want JonBenet to be exposed to Las Vegas, wouldn't this speak in favor of him and show that he was concerned about his daughter?

I agree with you. I just do not believe that John was molesting his daughter. And IF she had been previously molested, I suspect Grandpa Paugh....just my gut instinct. And EVEN IF John had been molesting her (which, I don't think he was)....I don't believe that he would have tried that on Christmas night, when Patsy was around, and they had to get up early the next morning, and they had such a big day. I just don't believe that she was molested that night..by anyone...except for the paintbrush insertion, as she was dying...to make it look like an sexual sadist did it.

 

[Ames]

I think you have hit on a very important point here Rash. Sexy and sex don't always have anything to do with each other. Sometimes (Usually?) those sexy women are as cold as a cadaver behind closed doors. I think what Patsy was doing with JonBenet was strictly a sexy veneer. She was developing and peddling an image. The end justified the means.

I have a prime example of that. A friend of mine has a daughter who sings...and even though she is 15 now, she looks 11. When she performs, she wears really skimpy outfits. Tiny miniskirts....her face all made up...etc...and she has been doing this since she was about 8 or 9. One night when she was performing in her skimpy outfit, a man in the audience was taking pictures of her, with his cell phone. I told her mom about it later, (she was videotaping and didn't see him) and she was extremely upset. SEE...she is overly protective of her daughter, but she lets her dress provocatively..when she performs. Makes no sense....but, I think this is the same concept here, as Patsy and JB.

 

[BOESP]

I too have a hard time figuring that this type of blow was originally meant to strike another target, i. e. John, but hit JonBenet instead.

BOESP, a question for your friend: does she think it possible that Patsy, on catching John molesting JonBenet, directed her rage against her daughter instead? Patsy often dressed up JonBenet in sexy women's clothes (the Las Vegas showgirl outfit for example), so could it be that she, seeing what was going on, reacted to JonBenet as if she were a female rival, snapping and losing it in a blind rage against her daughter?

I'll ask her. It may be this weekend before I get a response.

 

[BOESP]

I have a prime example of that. A friend of mine has a daughter who sings...and even though she is 15 now, she looks 11. When she performs, she wears really skimpy outfits. Tiny miniskirts....her face all made up...etc...and she has been doing this since she was about 8 or 9. One night when she was performing in her skimpy outfit, a man in the audience was taking pictures of her, with his cell phone. I told her mom about it later, (she was videotaping and didn't see him) and she was extremely upset. SEE...she is overly protective of her daughter, but she lets her dress provocatively..when she performs. Makes no sense....but, I think this is the same concept here, as Patsy and JB.

Ames, this is strictly my personal opinion but in reference to your friend and her daughter, I believe people who have never been exposed to deviant behavior and who do not have perverted thinking often genuinely do not recognize there are perverts and deviants out there. Your friend may recognize that pedophilia is immoral and abusive yet not see glamorizing her daughter as provocative behavior (a pedophile would love it but the mother would never think such a thing while allowing a child to dress that way). Normal minds won't think like that, or at least allow no more than a passing thought at most, due to their inherent decency, proper training, upbringing, lack of desire, etc. It never occurs to them to think that way.

I don't mean to offend but it is often like people who think if they pray long enough and hard enough for those in prison that they will effect positive change in the convict through prayer. Those well-meaning folks don't realize there is such a thing as a perverted mind and it enjoys evil and it will never change. Then you have the "jail-house religion" group, which is a whole other story. It is just the old good versus evil.

In my opinion, Patsy and Pam saw JonBenet's garb and performance as something that would help JonBenet get noticed by the judges and move up toward eventually being Miss America. I don't think they consciously thought it would cause a problem. They just thought it was cute and made JonBenet look pretty. That's naive thinking but I'd bet that was their thought process --- produce a winner, that is the goal!

I guess I've taken the blabbermouth route to saying I don't think JonBenet's pageantry had anything to do with her death. I think it is an unrelated side issue. The only thing I can see is it suggests something about Patsy's mindset and behavior.

 

[Ames]

Ames, this is strictly my personal opinion but in reference to your friend and her daughter, I believe people who have never been exposed to deviant behavior and who do not have perverted thinking often genuinely do not recognize there are perverts and deviants out there. Your friend may recognize that pedophilia is immoral and abusive yet not see glamorizing her daughter as provocative behavior (a pedophile would love it but the mother would never think such a thing while allowing a child to dress that way). Normal minds won't think like that, or at least allow no more than a passing thought at most, due to their inherent decency, proper training, upbringing, lack of desire, etc. It never occurs to them to think that way.

I don't mean to offend but it is often like people who think if they pray long enough and hard enough for those in prison that they will effect positive change in the convict through prayer. Those well-meaning folks don't realize there is such a thing as a perverted mind and it enjoys evil and it will never change. Then you have the "jail-house religion" group, which is a whole other story. It is just the old good versus evil.

In my opinion, Patsy and Pam saw JonBenet's garb and performance as something that would help JonBenet get noticed by the judges and move up toward eventually being Miss America. I don't think they consciously thought it would cause a problem. They just thought it was cute and made JonBenet look pretty. That's naive thinking but I'd bet that was their thought process --- produce a winner, that is the goal!

I guess I've taken the blabbermouth route to saying I don't think JonBenet's pageantry had anything to do with her death. I think it is an unrelated side issue. The only thing I can see is it suggests something about Patsy's mindset and behavior.

I agree with you on that one.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

but isn't that seeig things a little too simplistic?
First of all, we don't know anything definite about 'John's preferences'. It is true that a woman (Kimberly Ballard I think is her name) once said John allegedly liked her to dress like a little girl, but how credible is this woman? She could be just another of the many people who wanted their share of media attention in the JBR hype.
LHP said Patsy complained to her about having lost interest in sex with John, and LHP suggested she buy some videos to spice up their sex life. I always thought it a little strange that Patsy would confide such intimate things to her housekeeper, but then I know that quite a few women are indeed on very confidential terms with their housekeepers.
Even if we assume that LHP told the truth here - so Patsy complained about hers and John's sex life. But this is nothing so very unusual, for even without stressors like chemo, people go through various phases and fluctuations in that area. So suppose Patsy was exhausted, stressed-out, and in the wake of it her sex life suffered somewhat - but still it is a VERY VERY big (and horrible and perverted!) step of action to then simply decide to pimp her own daughter to her husband so that at least he should stay 'satisfied'. Something just doesn't add up here imo.

It is true that Patsy liked to dress up JonBenet in sexy female outfits, but I don't think she actually wanted to pimp JonBenet to ANYONE. I believe her dressing up JonBenet in such clothes was meant to reflect back on Patsy as the beautiful mother who had produced such a beautiful child.
Of course these outfits were meant to 'tease' - they would bring points in the jury's eyes - sex sells, and certainly Patsy overstepped the line here. Presenting one's child like that is already a form of child abuse imo.
But even with all that said, I still have difficulty figuring that Patsy would have allowed anyone to actively molest JonBenet. I believe Patsy would have felt insulted in her own narcissism if anyone had dared to do that.
I also believe that the older JonBenet would have gotten, the more jealous Patsy would have become of her.

If John did not want JonBenet to be exposed to Las Vegas, wouldn't this speak in favor of him and show that he was concerned about his daughter?

rashomon,

First of all, we don't know anything definite about 'John's preferences'.

Well we do Patsy is quoted somewhere, possibly to LHP or Susan Stine, as describing how she went off sex during her chemo and utterly detested John's favored sex act.

What I wrote you may characterise as seeig things a little too simplistic, but your above explanation for Patsy's pageant behaviour can be considered as a rationalisation for the sexualised grooming of a child?

If John did not want JonBenet to be exposed to Las Vegas, wouldn't this speak in favor of him and show that he was concerned about his daughter?

Well thats why it was mentioned just like her public defense that John could never molest JonBenet since Nedra slept in the same room.

You really must not beleive everything the Ramsey's tell you, they are attempting to avoid capital murder charges, not increase their moral worth so to eventually assure their entrance heaven.

.

 

[UKGuy]

It's such a fuzzy area. But consider this...a mother flying into a rage and slamming her child into the edge of a tub or sink or faucet....and the child dies as a result. Accident? Yes and no. The slamming was NOT an accident. But the death WAS in the sense that the slamming was not done intentionally to kill her.

DeeDee249,

The extent and severity of JonBenet's head injuries are not consistent with a domestic accident.

Someone deliberately whacked JonBenet on the head with the intention of killing her!

.

 

[BOESP]

DeeDee249,

The extent and severity of JonBenet's head injuries are not consistent with a domestic accident.

Someone deliberately whacked JonBenet on the head with the intention of killing her!

.

UKGuy, how do you know someone deliberately whacked JonBenet on the head with the intention of killing her? How do you know she didn't accidentally fall or was pushed, then hit her head on a protrusion and someone fell on top of her? Maybe she and her mother went down and JonBenet fell on the flashlight??? I can think of other scenarios that could also account for the headwound.

I don't see proof anywhere that we can say it was purposeful or accidental. I think that's puffing our wares to say we know.

 

[coloradokares]

DeeDee249,

The extent and severity of JonBenet's head injuries are not consistent with a domestic accident.

Someone deliberately whacked JonBenet on the head with the intention of killing her!

.

Or was cosumed in that moment by rage that was in that momemt indeed murderous. Are you at all familiar with the the unpredictable and horrendous rage that the mentally ill are capable of. I have personally seen it. It would scare the heebie jeebies right out of you. For that moment. Bi polar is only but one. They can be typically nice sweet overachievers who usually fail to achieve due to the cycling who thrive on being the center of attention. They are nothing if not driven people who are total control freaks who are so out of control. Whom dependent on their cyclng can be brilliant or of great harm to themselves or others. They are fully capable of a tailspin of rage, they have grandiose ideations that are seldom fulfilled as most cannot financially keep up with their own fiscal irresponsibilities Patsy had money and was not afraid to spend it creating the image she wanted dont take my word for it do some searchs which a good place to start would be a study on Patty Duke. But dont stop there I think you would be stunned to see the comparisons of that Personality disorder and how it stacks up to what we know of who Patsy was . That is my opinon of what I know and have read up on. Quite often the mental illness is hidden by family members. I hope that JMHO covers me on this.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, how do you know someone deliberately whacked JonBenet on the head with the intention of killing her? How do you know she didn't accidentally fall or was pushed, then hit her head on a protrusion and someone fell on top of her? Maybe she and her mother went down and JonBenet fell on the flashlight??? I can think of other scenarios that could also account for the headwound.

I don't see proof anywhere that we can say it was purposeful or accidental. I think that's puffing our wares to say we know.

BOESP,

The injuries as described in the autopsy report are the evidence, these head injuries are not those resulting from either a domestic accident or an assault struck out in anger.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Or was cosumed in that moment by rage that was in that momemt indeed murderous. Are you at all familiar with the the unpredictable and horrendous rage that the mentally ill are capable of. I have personally seen it. It would scare the heebie jeebies right out of you. For that moment. Bi polar is only but one. They can be typically nice sweet oeverachievers who thrive on the center of attention c but driven people are total conrol freaks who are so out of control. Whom dependent on their cyclng can be brilliant or of great harm to themselves or others. They are fully capable of a tailspin of rage, they grandiose ideations that are seldom fulfilled Do not take my word for it do some searchs which a good place to start would be a study on Patty Duke. But dont stop there I think you would be stunned to see the comparisons of that Personality disorder . JMHO

coloradokares,

I do not dispute what you are saying but JonBenet's head injuries do not fall into the domestic accident category, they are reflective of someone intentionally bludgeoning JonBenet to death.

Its that simple!


.

 

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

I do not dispute what you are saying but JonBenet's head injuries do not fall into the domestic accident category, they are reflective of someone intentionally bludgeoning JonBenet to death.

Its that simple!


.

Oh yes its only later they are like what have I done

 

[Albert18]

In what Coloradokares is describing, domestic accident and intentional bludgeoning are really the same. JonBenet's head certainly didn't know the difference.

I think the word accident is tripping people up. I think the word accident in this case means when Patsy came into the presence of JonBenet, whenever and wherever this was, there was no intent at that moment to injure JonBenet. There must have been a trigger and whatever happened next wasn't supposed to have happened. JonBenet may have been thrown, chased, attacked, pushed, struck, grabbed, or a combination of any of these.