Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #3

[Bartholemeus]

Do you have any further information on Karen Skinner ?

Silver Tongue feels she might have been found but all I can find is this:

http://www.afp.gov.au/media-centre/...ides-a-new-image-for-afp-missing-persons.aspx

http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/11523338/please-find-our-missing-daughter

It seems as of 2013 she was still missing. I can't see her turning up in the last 2 years.

 

[J35]

Has anyone been able to find information on these two? Ausgirl posted about them in an old CSK thread (April 2014).

Barbara Westorn , found in bushland north-east of Canning Dam , Perth , murdered.

Kelly Turner , 18 , body found near Canning Dam , July 1991 murdered.

 

[silver tongue]

this site claims she's been located?
www.missingpersons.gov.au/media/mp/files/posterpdfs/age /progress%2

 

[elastic]

There's two ways of telling 100%;

a) there are cut marks on the neck bone which will only be present as a result of a deep cut, and
b) The body has not yet decomposed enough and the cuts in the skin can be seen

Both bodies were decomposed enough to not be able to see the cuts in the skin and neither had cuts on the bone.

The reason they couldn't see the cuts, particularly in CGs case was the area had been eaten away by insects. This is consistent with throats being cut, i.e. 100% of the time throats are cut there is more insect activity in that area. An obvious place for insects to start basically.

So it's not 100% but it's very close.

This is documented in DMs book. She does have a few incorrect facts in her book so it's possible she is mistaken but highly unlikely.

So this is your oppinion, yet you state it like fact.

Could electrical cord, or a thin rope also cut through the skin if a victim was small enough, and the serial rapist was strong enough ( which he probably is if he is going around using a blitz attack method to bound and subdue them before bungling them into his vehicle.

I am not convinced insect bites tell the full story.

This is misleading but i value your theory.

I think the police know exactly how the girls died, they just arent saying anything.

Is there any evidence at all or any articles that clearly indicate a possible method of killing the girls? I remember a foreign article may have referenced a cause of death for one of the girls

 

[Bartholemeus]

So this is your oppinion, yet you state it like fact.

You need to settle down.

Is is scientific fact that insect activity is heavy around cut throats. It is also fact fact that this information was in DMs book. DM claims she got the info from police.

Common sense tells us that it's unlikely she fabricated this information and therefore we can deduce it's highly likely true.

 

[J35]

Is there any evidence at all or any articles that clearly indicate a possible method of killing the girls? I remember a foreign article may have referenced a cause of death for one of the girls

Believe your talking about this article dated 4 April 1997. It states that JR was strangled. This makes sense IF the 'forensic link' between Karrakatta rape and JR is the use of cable/flex, and IF it is indeed not a DNA link.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irishwoman-s-death-linked-to-australian-serial-killer-1.58756

DNA is unlikely, if found at JR crime scene, it would have been highly degraded. IF the link is DNA, they would likely only use familial DNA if the DNA (if obtained) from the Karrakatta rape is also degraded (unlikely if collected by the hospital at the time and if correct forensic preservation methods were carried out and continued). In this scenario, you'd have a partial match that you are then trying to match to familial DNA.

 

[elastic]

Believe your talking about this article dated 4 April 1997. It states that JR was strangled. This makes sense IF the 'forensic link' between Karrakatta rape and JR is the use of cable/flex, and IF it is indeed not a DNA link.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irishwoman-s-death-linked-to-australian-serial-killer-1.58756

DNA is unlikely, if found at JR crime scene, it would have been highly degraded. IF the link is DNA, they would likely only use familial DNA if the DNA (if obtained) from the Karrakatta rape is also degraded (unlikely if collected by the hospital at the time and if correct forensic preservation methods were carried out and continued). In this scenario, you'd have a partial match that you are then trying to match to familial DNA.

Thanks for that. Strangulation is the most likely cause in my opinion. I am wondering if its electrical cable, or something similar and as strong as cable?

Bartholemeus, you still havent answered the question, why couldnt cuts from cable cause insect acticity. Stop presenting your theory as fact!

 

[elastic]

If its strangulation, possibly by cable that our serial rapist prefered as his way of killing his victims then it could be possible the kill site was the abduction site or where his car was parked. He then may have traveled to his dump zone the same night, unless the reason he hid Sarah Spiers so well is because he abducted and rapes her before killing her. He more than likely would have used gloves you would think

 

[Bartholemeus]

Thanks for that. Strangulation is the most likely cause in my opinion. I am wondering if its electrical cable, or something similar and as strong as cable?

Bartholemeus, you still havent answered the question, why couldnt cuts from cable cause insect acticity. Stop presenting your theory as fact!

1. I haven't presented any theories as fact. Based on the information available to all of us, it is likely that the throats were cut.
2. If a ligature were used there would be bruising on other parts on the neck. I didn't explain because I thought it was obvious.

You're welcome to think whatever you like.

 

[elastic]

1. I haven't presented any theories as fact. Yet. Based on the information available to all of us, it is likely that the throats were cut.
2. If a ligature were used there would be bruising on other parts on the neck. I didn't explain because I thought it was obvious.

And after that much time exposed to the elements you would notice these things. I am not buying your theory. However our claremont rapist may have used strangulation on some victims and knife on others, or both, who knows. But your insect theory is weak.

 

[J35]

bartholemeus, maybe you are giving what DM said re throat cut too much weight. I don't want to argue with you nor do I disrespect what you are saying (you have provided great thoughts throughout- you still have me convinced about judoman re CSA doco), but DM couldn't even get the pics of the locations right for the two girls (Pic of Wellard for CG). Maybe she got fed bad info at the time, there seems to have been a fair bit at the time (eg. Media Statements that all poi's had been cleared, then denied strongly by police re LW). Do you totally refute the possibility that the 'forensic link' is cable/flex used to strangulate? If throat cutting is involved as DM says, what do you think the 'forensic link' is between karrakatta and JR?
Wire, if applied strongly enough, could leave a cut.
I'm not saying your wrong, it's just that the link seems more likely to be the use of cable/flex... unless it's the 'blitz attack' that is the link and media is blowing out of proportion...

If there is evidence of petechia in the eyes, this would suggest strangulation. Would it last 6 or so weeks, I don't know.

 

[elastic]

If the Claremont rapist was going around using a 'blitz attack' style method of subduing his victims and bungling them into his vehicle, and chose strangulation as his preferred method to kill (possibly because its clean), then I am certain he would have had the strength to choke someone hard enough with cable or something similar in diameter and just as strong hard enough to cause substantial blood around the neck area. If a body was 'exposed to the elements' then I am sure the insects first area they would have targeted would have been the exposed area cut through by whatever means be in cable or knife, I hardly doubt just because insects were present a knife was used because it fits into your 'theory'

The victims were teenage girls, he hardly chose tough targets, someone like Sarah was tiny and would easily have ended up having substantial neck wounds from being choked with cable by our raging rapist.

I find it strange that the location given to Don Spiers of Sarah's whereabouts has never been revealed, despite the possibility she may solve the case due to having possibly been raped to conceal DNA (speculation) but i'm sure that would be an extremly high probability given the evidence we know.

There were rumours it was in Karnup in a Forrest or regional park around there. However Don Spiers, I believe specifically mentions a large area in hectares which I don't think actually fits the Karnup regional parks/ bush areas. Why wouldn't you tell the public in case someone could help with information given someone in the dumping area given to Don may have been driving in the area and could come forward if they remembered around the time something seemed suss. However this specific area could be linked to the Perth Rapist, being his first spot, it may be his most familiar, and possibly a camping ground of some sorts and he may be known or seen by locals regularly over the years. - we will never know anyways so its all speculation. The Police I doubt probably never really investigated the lead when they narrowed their investigation to the wrong guys.

Also the possibility of tracing the lead to a telephone booth, or even a mobile phone (MM?!?) the call to Don Spiers that has supposedly came from the Claremont rapist, did they investigate the time of the call, was the call at a similar time to the claremont abductions?.

There is so many potential leads that I hope our incompetent keystone cops investigated back in the cowboy days of WA Policing. I am sure they would never make those same mistakes. Its however a sad case when the Claremont failures may have been the turning point to a shake up in the professionalism of the Police force, especially with the humiliation of Caporn and the disgraceful antics of Hancock and co.

Very sad that the era will be tainted and the biggest most expensive investigation has been bungled because of some moronic egos parading around invincible at the time disgracing the name of true Police officers

 

[J35]

Also, decomp can cause the skin to split open. This could be mistaken for a cut. Depends on how far progressed it was. Id be interested to know how experienced/rank the cop who told DM was, then I could weight what she wrote better

 

[Bartholemeus]

And after that much time exposed to the elements you would notice these things. I am not buying your theory. However our claremont rapist may have used strangulation on some victims and knife on others, or both, who knows. But your insect theory is weak.

You are welcome to think whatever you like.

 

[Bartholemeus]

bartholemeus, maybe you are giving what DM said re throat cut too much weight. I don't want to argue with you nor do I disrespect what you are saying (you have provided great thoughts throughout- you still have me convinced about judoman re CSA doco), but DM couldn't even get the pics of the locations right for the two girls (Pic of Wellard for CG). Maybe she got fed bad info at the time, there seems to have been a fair bit at the time (eg. Media Statements that all poi's had been cleared, then denied strongly by police re LW). Do you totally refute the possibility that the 'forensic link' is cable/flex used to strangulate? If throat cutting is involved as DM says, what do you think the 'forensic link' is between karrakatta and JR?
Wire, if applied strongly enough, could leave a cut.
I'm not saying your wrong, it's just that the link seems more likely to be the use of cable/flex... unless it's the 'blitz attack' that is the link and media is blowing out of proportion...

If there is evidence of petechia in the eyes, this would suggest strangulation. Would it last 6 or so weeks, I don't know.

You are welcome to think whatever you like.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I hardly doubt just because insects were present a knife was used because it fits into your 'theory'

Just so you know; I'm on record as leaning strongly towards strangulation. Then I did some research which extended far beyond DM's book and can all but confirm the girls had their throats cut. I won't be posting what that research entails but I'd say I've posted more than anyone else on this subject and don't have a track record or reputation for talking rubbish.

As I said, you are free to believe whatever you please.

 

[J35]

...I did some research which extended far beyond DM's book and can all but confirm the girls had their throats cut. I won't be posting what that research entails but I'd say I've posted more than anyone else on this subject and don't have a track record or reputation for talking truth..

This is the reply I wanted. This makes me understand why you believe what you believe. Before It sounded like 'DM wrote it so it's true'. Thus my original response. Thank you for the clarification

 

[elastic]

<modsnip>

Most of the evidence points towards Strangulation, and Ironically some of our local known serial killers are renowned for also using this method. It seems a clean way to kill, and I am also not ruling out that if you are so convinced that they had their throats cut that there is the possibility that they may have had their throats cut post mortem somewhere near the kill site as some final act to try and get off before the dump and run. He made no attempt to hide the bodies, he was confident DNA was not on them, he must have wore gloves, used a cable of some sort or something similar in diameter, probably killed them where he abducted them and more than likely took them into the bush somewhere and played round with them before dumping them. If their throats were cut it would have been then. Not whilst they were still alive.

However if you believe you can refute that by all means, but that is my 'theory' based on the facts I have seen. My theory is that they possibly haven't had their throats cut however, its the first paragraph where I believe they were more than likely strangled and the Forensic link is the fact the same cable/rope is linked, or something of a diameter strong enough to subdue but also small enough in diameter to choke and kill. If you think you are right then you theory is flawed as it doesn't convince me beyond doubt that insects are only in the wound due to a knife exclusively and that Debbi Marshall backs that up when it was during the rumour days of the Claremont Rapist case, anything else you are not prepared to say so Its ofcourse specualtion.

There is also a foreign article backing the strangulation theory up. This is significant because it was in a foreign country and also didn't have that idiotic gag order on the media so that we didn't play with the claremont rapists ego. Which I find so ridiculous. The Foreign article posted as far back as 1997 actually fits into all the recent evidence and articles going back to even the cloths line/ ink theory which fits in with subdue by strangulation during a powerful blitz attack and bungle into car (White Stationwagon or VAN which is out of view in an inconspicuous carpark if its a commercial VAN then they are hard to see into making them perfect for a psychopath) possibly with the victim dead or having died due to the blitz attack (and strangulation) before being dropped and left at the dump site. So I would much rather discuss things that line up with the facts and media releases that have been coming out over the last few years whilst they tell us they are about to catch this killer.

There have been other posts that yourself Bartholemeus have posted that have been misleading or you have refuted crucial early information posted by papertrail which is now incredibly helpful now we know the police bungled the case and narrowed in on all the wrong suspects in the early days and ruined the investigation in the most crucial stages. So those articles from Papertrail are priceless. The Policemens son offering lifts, what a way to drive around in the early days if your Police dad had a commercial van/ or Station wagon and you could drive around and do your disgusting acts in the privacy of the VAN/ back of wagon knowing noone would be able to see into it. You would roam Perth undisturbed as the license checks would ultimately leave you alone to roam at your pleasure. Perth was lazy and sleepy in those years, not alot of cops on the streets, it was an easy place to get away with drink driving etc so even if you weren't a Police mans son it would have still been easy to trek 45km unnoticed by Police in those years, having access to a police officers private car though makes things interesting.

I am very keen to see the time stamp too, I think it has relevence, and if paper trail is true to his word he has been more important to this investigation than anyone else publicly in my oppinion. He has news paper articles and can locate articles that actually allow Sleuthers to become active. You provide your theory and offer no facts, you keep the investigation going in a circle. I think your posts are valuable mind you, you are insightful, dont take me too negatively. I just want you to be more specific when discussing your theory and not play it like a fact when you gave me the same lecture earlier which I respect and have attempted to correct for the good of the thread.

The investigation has never been better for the public and interest is just as much now as in the early years after a huge 10 year lul

I would still love to see someone refute the Morey possibility, he literally has the same abduction tools as our claremont rapist, He is rumored to have a bag full of some type of rope abduction kit according to a Coronial report. It could very well be highgate man, and one of the most decent investigators during those years 'Bayens' (He is a genuinely good cop) and if his suspect is correct, and they are about to crack the case, bye bye Morey for another 25 years.

Again Not saying Morey is our man, he does fit in somewhere and has never been refuted so needs to stay ruled in. Sarah McMahon is almost a splitting Image of Sarah Spiers too and I often actually confuse the two when their missing people pictures come up in the news articles etc. He operated at a very similar time and his known crimes lead back to the CSK years ironically if you look at a possible lead in theory to a new hunting ground in highgate where even easier female targets were on offer who would willingly get into his car before being strangled. There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE he was locked up. WA sentences barely run a quarter and that's for killing people with manslaugther, many counts of sexual offenses from known sex offenders get barely 3-4 years at the best of times. That's just how the WA legal system works. I Still want proof. Bayens may have cracked it and wanted to get his story out there before its cracked publicly.

There is the possibility MysterMan is Martial Arts Expert too, he hasn't been ruled out. We don't know if the Martial Arts Expert is serial rapist Clare (another shady character in WA simultaneously with other psychopaths), we don't know if Martial Arts expert is Judoman. We also dont know if MysteryMan is relevant. The Police made us believe he was, I think he may very well be, and if Papertrail provides the time stamp I would love to see what he may have come up with. I hope he is genuine.

The most amazing aspect of the case is the approximately 9 attempted rapes and abductions/ and ofcourse the killings that operated within Perth's most affluent suburb. This you would expect to be the most secure and highly investigated part of Perth, You would think all mild cases of theft, to ofcourse minor assaults would be high priority, any attempted rape or abduction would be monumental and Police would ramp up every resource to get to the bottom of every aspect of those cases with a view to solve each and everyone of them. But the scary thing is that they only started to act when the bodies started turning up for all the world to see. Why were so many early case not investigated properly, this just does not make any sense, It is unbelievable, and I hope we don't find out something sinister was happening. Then they bungled the case with the most corrupt cops leading the charge in the most crucial years. It really is disgusting. The WA Police owe the Perth public resolution to the case. Especially by giving the case to some of WA's most corrupt detectives when it was their highest profile investigation ever. I hope we don't find out someone doing these nasty crimes was somehow linked to the WA Police force. Or has some family maybe covered up and now with the stakes so high, we probably wont know unless their is an inquest.

Just like the Hayley Dodd investigation I expect that even if there was an Coronial Inquest, we would find out that the most crucial evidence was somehow 'lost' or 'mis-placed' and the case is now unsolvable, and possibly was once solvable but through complete incompetence it now will never be. The Hayley Dodd and the Police honestly let that Mother down big time, the case could have been solved and the grief could have been lifted many years before this moment, and its still not over. Perth's confidence in their own Police force has been shattered into unrecoverable levels. I am not saying Margaret Dodd's grief would be gone, but having resolution would help her recover from this shattering experience. I imagine Don Spiers is still in pieces to this day, he has nothing to lose by being more public though given how much he was let down. I hope he one day is.

The narrow focus destroyed the case. The profile of who they thought this rapist was couldn't have been more wrong. People suspected Police Car or Taxi, now its becoming apparent it could have been Blitz attack, strangulation, bungling them into Van (and possibly later White Commodore Station Wagon, or either) and driven to the dump site, and possibly played with near the dump site further away from where the body drop happened before they dumped the victims.

I still think if we got more information about where Sarah Spiers could possibly be, and if they Claremont rapist did ring Don Spiers then whats the harm after all these years in revealing the details of where this large area of bush is, Does anyone know where the Karnup regional park/forest rumours started?

 

[Bartholemeus]

As I said, I have no history of lying, misrepresenting the truth nor misinterpreting information. You are free to believe what you want.

 

[silver tongue]

great write up elastic, thoroughly was enjoying the read until you began your police cover up theory. do you really think if the son or relative of a serving police officer, detective was involved in murder and were aware of this they would simply turn a blind eye or try to cover for him i think not if the police are as corrupt as you say may be you should be careful what you post