Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #3

[J35]

Can we please get back on track. I don't want this thread closed.

 

[bessie]

ADMIN NOTE to all:

Stop the personal back and forth. There are ways to disagree without insulting other posters.

 

[Bartholemeus]

There have been other posts that yourself Bartholemeus have posted that have been misleading or you have refuted crucial early information posted by papertrail

Please let me know what they are so I can clarify them.

 

[J35]

Let's assume that there is indeed a 'forensic link' between the Karrakatta rape and JR.

So, if we can work out how it happened, it will give us insight into how the 'blitz attack' on JR (and assumably all 3) occurred.

Was the person(s) driving past Rowe park at the time, saw the 17yo, jumped out, blindfolded her (something over the head?) and/or tied up, then bailed her into the vehicle?

Did the person(s) parked up near Rowe park, was hiding in the bushes and ambushed the 17yo as she walked past? If so what is the most likely parking spot?

Was it two people- one stalked the 17yo, ambushed her at Rowe Park and bailed her into accomplice vehicle?

Assuming the sightings of vehicles in the SS and CG cases are correct, the first seems most plausible.

How did the person(s) keep the 17yo from screaming at any time during the attack? How did a single person keep this girl under control getting her in and out of the vehicle.

I use the word person(s) to be open-minded to other possibilities.

If the majority of Claremont attacks was the same person (e.g bayview attempted rape and Claremont subway) this would suggest the person walked around.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Let's assume that there is indeed a 'forensic link' between the Karrakatta rape and JR.

So, if we can work out how it happened, it will give us insight into how the 'blitz attack' on JR (and assumably all 3) occurred.

Was the person(s) driving past Rowe park at the time, saw the 17yo, jumped out, blindfolded her (something over the head?) and/or tied up, then bailed her into the vehicle?

Did the person(s) parked up near Rowe park, was hiding in the bushes and ambushed the 17yo as she walked past? If so what is the most likely parking spot?

The latter would be most likely. The guy had a bag and electrical cord at hand. Seemed like a planned attack. There's a car park right in the middle of Rowe Park. This is the most likely spot he parked his car.

Was it two people- one stalked the 17yo, ambushed her at Rowe Park and bailed her into accomplice vehicle?

It would have to be one person. Even if they never spoke, the victim would be able to ascertain it was two guys. Two sets of footsteps, two vehicle doors to close etc

Assuming the sightings of vehicles in the SS and CG cases are correct, the first seems most plausible.

Possible but unless she was fall-over drunk she would have seen him coming. As in car pull over and then approach by foot. Media articles imply she was taken by surprise.

How did the person(s) keep the 17yo from screaming at any time during the attack? How did a single person keep this girl under control getting her in and out of the vehicle.

Controlling her physically would be easy. The victim was 17 and from what I understand, slightly built.

Stopping her screaming? Maybe by verbal threats. Maybe by using a knife. When he grabbed her he might have had his hand over her mouth. It wouldn't have been easy.

 

[elastic]

great write up elastic, thoroughly was enjoying the read until you began your police cover up theory. do you really think if the son or relative of a serving police officer, detective was involved in murder and were aware of this they would simply turn a blind eye or try to cover for him i think not if the police are as corrupt as you say may be you should be careful what you post

That theory originates from an article papertrail posted. I to be completly honest think that one of the other theories is more than likely. What i find interesting aboit the guy 'claiming' to be a police mans son is that the Police quickly dismissed it at the time.I hope they followed it up because now that we know the Police bungled the case, it may be a lead worth looking into. I wouldnt be dismissing anything.

The problem with this case is that one of the most corrupt detetctives Caporn ended up running the show. After the Mallard affair it taints a horrible picture. Anything is possible. But yeah as i said it originates from an article. For all we know the claim to be a policemen son was merely a claim and he wasnt one, just claimed to be one. If he turned out to be our rapist.

I think our rapist had a parked car and lurked on foot using a cable and gloves to blitz attack and bungle his victims into his car/van.

 

[Bartholemeus]

One of the biggest problems is explaining the cars seen near SS and CG. Some guys in a car saw SS waiting for a cab and as they turned onto the highway they saw a car approaching behind them. That car never went through the traffic lights. CG was seen by 3 guys at the Hungry Jacks bus stop talking to the occupant/s of a car possibly a white holden station wagon.

Neither car has come forward. One of the cars not coming forward is explainable but two? Such a high profile case with most not involved willing to help. What's the chance of it happening two out of two and not being relevant?

So the options are;

A. CSK was in one or more of those cars and the girls got in
B. CSK was in one or more of those cars, jumped out and forced the girls into his car.
C. CSK was not in those cars and it's just coincidental that neither car came forward.

I'm really struggling to believe the answer is C. If the answer is A then for Karrakatta to be the CSK he had to change his MO. If the answer is B then that's pretty out there. The area was deserted with SS but surely if you're a girl alone, as soon as a guy gets out the car it's time to start moving? CG's happened at 12am and the CSK would have been taking a massive risk. Even using a stun gun as the girls leant into the window would be highly risky.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Another option is it's a split:

One of those cars was the CSK, the other was just someone who didn't come forward for whatever reason.

Option 1: Car on Stirling Rd didn't go through the lights because it turned right into Chatsworth Tce. CSK was waiting in dark near Body Club. CG picked up by CSK.

Option 2: CG talks to person/s in white car. They drive off. For whatever reason they don't come forward. There's not many reasonable options for this. Maybe the next day they get on a plane and fly back to their country of origin. When the car drives off the CSK appears from the rear of Christchurch and grabs her. Or maybe from the bushes between the doctor's surgery car park and footpath, or maybe she walks on and he grabs her at CCGS? SS is picked up by the CSK.

These are possible but it's a stretch. It's likely that somewhere in this case something that was outside the odds happened. If you go with all the most likely sceanrios there's flaws. At one point something must have happened that is unlikely, but which one it is is anyone's guess.

 

[J35]

One of the biggest problems is explaining the cars seen near SS and CG. Some guys in a car saw SS waiting for a cab and as they turned onto the highway they saw a car approaching behind them. That car never went through the traffic lights. CG was seen by 3 guys at the Hungry Jacks bus stop talking to the occupant/s of a car possibly a white holden station wagon.

Neither car has come forward. One of the cars not coming forward is explainable but two? Such a high profile case with most not involved willing to help. What's the chance of it happening two out of two and not being relevant?

How certain were they that it was CG? Could have been a blond that looked similar to CG There was someone, either on here or BF, that claimed he was one of the three and said it was only one of them that reckoned he saw it happen..wether this is reliable....
In the case of SS, the car turning (option 1) is a likely possibility to explain why it never came forward.

So the options are;

A. CSK was in one or more of those cars and the girls got in
B. CSK was in one or more of those cars, jumped out and forced the girls into his car.
C. CSK was not in those cars and it's just coincidental that neither car came forward.

Or
D. CSK was not in those cars because the cars were not involved (i.e car turned down side street for SS and car legit picked up a friend who looked similar to CG)

E. Combination of any of the above with C. (Because the car in SS case is more easily explainable) (ie mixed it up)

I'm really struggling to believe the answer is C. If the answer is A then for Karrakatta to be the CSK he had to change his MO. If the answer is B then that's pretty out there. The area was deserted with SS but surely if you're a girl alone, as soon as a guy gets out the car it's time to start moving? CG's happened at 12am and the CSK would have been taking a massive risk. Even using a stun gun as the girls leant into the window would be highly risky.

I agree. B is pretty crazy, although it would be hard to start moving in high heels, but surely able to let out a scream- especially in CG case. But the subway attack and the lane way attack at back of the club are pretty braisin as well.

The birnies were pretty braisin. Holding the girls at knife point in the car, all the way home, then trying to get them into the house, and in some cases, back into the car to drive to the dump site. Dunno bout you, but id be yelling and screaming as soon I got out, get someone's attention, death outside the house is better than what they went through. That house should be demolished. Instead it's selling for 600K. But I digress.

 

[Bartholemeus]

How certain were they that it was CG? Could have been a blond that looked similar to CG There was someone, either on here or BF, that claimed he was one of the three and said it was only one of them that reckoned he saw it happen..wether this is reliable....

I spoke to both the guy who claimed he was at the bus stop and the girl who said she was a close friend of JR. Both of them were lying.

We'd have to assume it was CG walking along the Hwy otherwise someone else would have come forward. It's possible the guys at the bus stop got it wrong but there were three of them. Maybe only one of them saw the car and he was mistaken? Hard to say but somewhere there's probably a piece of incorrect information.

In the case of SS, the car turning (option 1) is a likely possibility to explain why it never came forward.

It would explain why it didn't go through the lights but why didn't they come forward? If you go into Chatsworth Tce at 2am you're not driving through. You'd have a link to the area and be aware of the missing persons case.

Or
D. CSK was not in those cars because the cars were not involved (i.e car turned down side street for SS and car legit picked up a friend who looked similar to CG)

I think that's the same as my Option C. That means there were 2 abductions with a car seen at each and neither came forward. The odds on that are very high. Very unlikely.

I agree. B is pretty crazy, although it would be hard to start moving in high heels, but surely able to let out a scream- especially in CG case. But the subway attack and the lane way attack at back of the club are pretty braisin as well.

If it's the same guy on all of them he is incredibly lucky. Trying to drag a girl out of a car at a set of lights (or stop sign) is incredibly risky. And out the back of club - there's always people there. Must have been very late in the night, as in after 2am.


CG was seen near the bus bay outside Christ Church talking to someone in a car. This is where I have always understood it to be. It's unlikely this driver is not involved otherwise you'd think he'd come forward. The driver is on the far side of the car compared to where CG. I doubt he can make a move from the driver seat when she is leaning on the passenger window.

If there was a blitz attack then it's highly likely it's Karrakatta Man. We have to be quite sure Karrakatta Man is a sole operator. So how did he blitz her into the car from the driver side?

 

[J35]

For the record,
I personally am not sure if I subscribe to the 'blitz attack' theory. I find it strange that even up until the SN programm that it was "willingly got in a car" and now it's all "blitz attack". Certainly both are plausible, don't get me wrong, but dragging a victim to your vehicle only increases the likely hood of being caught/spotted. So does the "stop the car, bungle them in" theory.

If the watch found at the JR site stopped at say 1206am, then sure, I'd be swayed towards "blitz attack". But if this was the case, then police would have suspected "blitz attack" back in 1996.

Link re watch (plus strangulation)
The Age. Saturday May 30, 1998
http://www.serialkey.com.au/serial-...-women-the-hunt-for-a-serial-killer-part-one/

As for the 'forensic link' between karrakatta and JR

A) DNA (unlikely, but maybe highly degraded DNA that doesn't allow a good enough statistical match for trial)

B) use of same electrical cord/flex (likely IF JR was strangled)

C) clothes left at JR scene (as per papertrails articles) are that of karrakatta rape victim
(Defies logic- needed international experts to tell them that Karrakatta was CSK's first!)

D) something other than the fact that the two were at club BV.

 

[J35]

It would explain why it didn't go through the lights but why didn't they come forward? If you go into Chatsworth Tce at 2am you're not driving through. You'd have a link to the area and be aware of the missing persons case.

Just brainstorming here:
Person was driving a X coloured Y but the vehicle described is a W coloured Y.

Person was driving a X coloured Y but the vehicle described is a X coloured Z.

Person wasn't aware of the time (thought it was around 2.15am)

Could have been the car behind him/her.

Could have called crimestoppers and it got 'lost' or 'ignored'

Person was drink driving so didn't come forward

If there was a blitz attack then it's highly likely it's Karrakatta Man. We have to be quite sure Karrakatta Man is a sole operator. So how did he blitz her into the car from the driver side?

Quickly Jumped out, one hand over the mouth, the other arm in a choke hold, bundle into back of vehicle (assume child locked). Drive away?
Or, a passenger?
Pretty hard given that you'd lose the element of surprise stopping and getting out.

 

[Bartholemeus]

For the record,
I personally am not sure if I subscribe to the 'blitz attack' theory. I find it strange that even up until the SN programm that it was "willingly got in a car" and now it's all "blitz attack". Certainly both are plausible, don't get me wrong, but dragging a victim to your vehicle only increases the likely hood of being caught/spotted. So does the "stop the car, bungle them in" theory.

If the watch found at the JR site stopped at say 1206am, then sure, I'd be swayed towards "blitz attack". But if this was the case, then police would have suspected "blitz attack" back in 1996.

Link re watch (plus strangulation)
The Age. Saturday May 30, 1998
http://www.serialkey.com.au/serial-...-women-the-hunt-for-a-serial-killer-part-one/

As for the 'forensic link' between karrakatta and JR

A) DNA (unlikely, but maybe highly degraded DNA that doesn't allow a good enough statistical match for trial)

B) use of same electrical cord/flex (likely IF JR was strangled)

C) clothes left at JR scene (as per papertrails articles) are that of karrakatta rape victim
(Defies logic- needed international experts to tell them that Karrakatta was CSK's first!)

D) something other than the fact that the two were at club BV.

I've got a couple of problems with blitz attack theory;

1. The cars seen at SS and CG abduction sites. Neither came forward. Only a slim chance they aren't involved which means blitz attack by car is unlikely.
2. For the last 3 years Police have been releasing strategic snippets of information to the media. I believe they are strategic ploys with a desired outcome. I suspect the link between Karrakatta and CSK might be another piece of "strategic" information that is actually incorrect. I

I'm think 55% no link between CSK and Karra, 45% story is true and it is the same man and they know it.

Karra's clothes being at JR site is 1 million to 1 IMO. It's just not feasible.

 

[J35]

1. The cars seen at SS and CG abduction sites. Neither came forward. Only a slim chance they aren't involved which means blitz attack by car is unlikely.

I respectfully disagree (use of 'slim chance', I'd have agreed if you said 'less likely'), you have highlighted reasons why at least one car may not have come forward, and iv questioned the accuracy of the second. Slim is like 10%

Karra's clothes being at JR site is 1 million to 1 IMO. It's just not feasible.

Totally agree. So is it lemon information?

 

[Bartholemeus]

I respectfully disagree (use of 'slim chance', I'd have agreed if you said 'less likely'), you have highlighted reasons why at least one car may not have come forward, and iv questioned the accuracy of the second. Slim is like 10%

I'm on about 10%.

Two events, two cars, neither came forward. Police identified everyone in Claremont that night and everyone at Conti bar MM. The difference between MM and the cars is MM didn't know they were looking for him whereas there was a very public campaign regarding the cars.

The guys who saw the SS car - they seem to all be in agreement there was a car so this is likely. The bus stop guys though? On the piss eating burgers. We don't if all 3 saw CG talking to the car or just one or two. Could be misinformation but that would have to be a low chance because police seem convinced the info is good.

Which ever way you cut it, I still think it's a slim chance that two cars seen in the vicinity coincidently didn't come forward for legitimate reasons.

SS: Car seen near buy within a few minutes of abduction. Drives past. Someone else abducts her. Even though there's a massive campaign to find SS, the occupant/s of this car never come forward
CG: Car seen near withing minutes of abduction. Someone else abducts her. Even though there's a massive campaign about CG's abduction, the occupant/s of this car never come forward

What are the chances of that happening twice and not being connected? I'm probably at 5% tops tbh.

Totally agree. So is it lemon information?

It's been stated as theory rather than info but the theory is highly unlikely. If Karrakatta victim's clothes were dumped at JR site then police would have ascertained this almost immediately. It would have been a major clue.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Just brainstorming here:
Person was driving a X coloured Y but the vehicle described is a W coloured Y.

Person was driving a X coloured Y but the vehicle described is a X coloured Z.

They'd know that they spoke to CG on that night. I believe it was all over the Perth news as early as the next afternoon. You wouldn't be able to miss it unless you were a foreigner and got on a flight back overseas the next day. The chance of this happening twice is remote.

Then there has been media attention for 20 years after. I find it hard to believe that on both occasions the driver of those vehicles is unaware he was at the scene and police want to talk to him.

Person wasn't aware of the time (thought it was around 2.15am)

Unlikely with CG as he spoke to her. Regardless of time he would remember. More likely with SS but still a long shot.

Could have been the car behind him/her.

Not sure what you mean here?

Could have called crimestoppers and it got 'lost' or 'ignored'

I believe this information would have been flagged as high priority and police would have been all over it within minutes of the info coming in. The drivers also had 20 years to re-approach the police but didn't do so.

Person was drink driving so didn't come forward

You'd come forward because the alcohol would be out of your system and therefore could not get caught for it. Also, over the 20 years you'd come forward.

Forget 5%, I'm on about .05%.

Quickly Jumped out, one hand over the mouth, the other arm in a choke hold, bundle into back of vehicle (assume child locked). Drive away?
Or, a passenger?
Pretty hard given that you'd lose the element of surprise stopping and getting out.

Which for me sheds doubt on the blitz theory.

Is there any type of excuse he could have pulled for getting out of the car and approaching her?

 

[Mel 1303]

CG was walking down the road, on her own. 3 guys at a bus stop see her, one calls out. She completely brushes them. Yet a car pulls over, and she stops to talk to the occupant/s. The people at the bus stop described the car- but not as a taxi, or a police car. Just a normal car. If a person in a car pulled over and tried to talk to her, why would she not brush them, in the way that she brushed the guys at the bus stop? Even if the driver was wearing a uniform of some kind (police, security etc) she would have had to have had a good look to tell, although if there was a front seat passenger she may have been able to see a uniform. To me, it seems more likely that she would have stopped because she knew who pulled up. Whatever they said to her, it was enough for her to stop and engage with them. So why not come forward?

There have been cases before where people gave information to the police and it was lost. Paul Onion gave info about Ivan Milat to the police, which was lost. Once it hit the media that there was a serial killer targeting back packers, he made contact with the police again. For 20 years it has been in the media that the police dont know who CG spoke to in the car. Plenty of time to make contact with the police, or the media, again.

 

[Bartholemeus]

CG was walking down the road, on her own. 3 guys at a bus stop see her, one calls out. She completely brushes them. Yet a car pulls over, and she stops to talk to the occupant/s. The people at the bus stop described the car- but not as a taxi, or a police car. Just a normal car. If a person in a car pulled over and tried to talk to her, why would she not brush them, in the way that she brushed the guys at the bus stop?

1. The guys at the bus stop didn't have anything she needed (i.e. a ride home)
2. The guys at the bus stop came across as the typical drunk male revellers who cat call women.
3. She knew the occupant of the car

There have been cases before where people gave information to the police and it was lost. Paul Onion gave info about Ivan Milat to the police, which was lost. Once it hit the media that there was a serial killer targeting back packers, he made contact with the police again. For 20 years it has been in the media that the police dont know who CG spoke to in the car. Plenty of time to make contact with the police, or the media, again.

I recall reading an article about this case where police admitted their systems were flawed and information was lost. If anyone can find that article we can add it to the pile.

BUT

If someone called up and said "I was the driver of that car" they may as well be saying "I am the last person to see CG alive". It would get escalated immediately. Info like that just wouldn't go into a huge pool to be sorted later or "when they get to it". Call takers would be given a list of levels and that would fall into the highest/most important category. That's some Defcon 1 sh**.

 

[Mel 1303]

1. The guys at the bus stop didn't have anything she needed (i.e. a ride home)
2. The guys at the bus stop came across as the typical drunk male revellers who cat call women.
3. She knew the occupant of the car



I recall reading an article about this case where police admitted their systems were flawed and information was lost. If anyone can find that article we can add it to the pile.

BUT

If someone called up and said "I was the driver of that car" they may as well be saying "I am the last person to see CG alive". It would get escalated immediately. Info like that just wouldn't go into a huge pool to be sorted later or "when they get to it". Call takers would be given a list of levels and that would fall into the highest/most important category. That's some Defcon 1 sh**.

I personally have always felt that the CSK may well have been familiar to the victims. Although the Karrakatta attack being linked does detract from that theory.

Here is an article about Paul Onions:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/on-the-trail-of-a--serial-killer-20140413-36m7u.html

In Paul Onions case, he made a report about what would have seemed an isolated incident before it was known that there was a serial killer operating in the area. While his report should have been acted upon, I agree it would have been different in this case. CG's disappearance hit the media really quickly. I live on the other side of the country, but I remember it being on the news very quickly. She had been in the same area as 2 earlier victims, and didnt show up for her sisters wedding. Immediate media saturation- whoever was in that car knew that the police wanted to talk to them.

 

[Basilisk]

I personally have always felt that the CSK may well have been familiar to the victims. Although the Karrakatta attack being linked does detract from that theory.

As illustrated by this discussion, the problem with the blitz attack hypothesis is how the attacker got close enough to grab the victims - either inside a car or from the roadside.

Its easy to forget now, but mobile phones were relatively scarce in 1996. According to the ABS just 24% of households had them (see chart). http://www.screenaustralia.gov.au/research/statistics/archnmcomphome.aspx

Young women were unlikely to be carrying them, but might want to contact a friend or family member for a lift if cabs were scarce at pub closing time. A friendly guy with a mobile phone might have just got close enough?