Cleaning crew member shot and killed on porch after arriving at the wrong house

[Friday Fan]

<modsnip>

Re the owners
They could have yelled from the window upstairs to go away and that Police were already called.

What a tragedy
RIP to the poor woman.
Sincerest Condolences to her Family.

This case is horrific

JMO

A delivery person said that often GPS and maps are wrong etc.
I know that Google maps in new subdivisions are pretty much worthless.

ETA: The house they were looking for isn't even on Google maps!

Windswept farms · 6949 gentle wind lane, Whitestown, IN 46075

Housing complex

maps.app.goo.gl

 

[CuriousCricket]

You say it's being considered a homicide, so far.

But it is and always will be a homicide, unless it turns out that homeowner didn't shoot her after all. And even then, someone else would've had to have shot her, which would still be homicide. I suppose if it turns out she shot herself, it would not be homicide.

But I'm being ridiculous; no one doubts she died after being shot by that homeowner. The thing left to decide is whether it was in any way justified homicide. Or was it instead murder to any degree?

Even if they decide not to charge the shooter at all, it will still be a homicide.



definition of homicide~ Wikipedia:

Homicide is an act in which a person causes the death of another person. A homicide requires only a volitional act, or an omission, that causes the death of another, and thus a homicide may result from accidental, reckless, or negligent acts even if there is no intent to cause harm.

Homicide - Wikipedia​

View attachment 624175
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Homicide

You're absolutely right.

I saw later deaths are classified three way: homicide, suicide and accidental.

I think of homicide and murder being the same. So, is it the charge, as in Murder one, Murder two, manslaughter: voluntary and involuntary. Are those the distinctions?

The information from the newspaper changes it greatly for me. Two people, knowing they were facing two people and were armed themselves. Especially going downstairs. No, there would have been time to baricade or hide. Plus upstairs is a better defensive position. That's just a totally wrong move in my opinion.

IF the new subdivision is not yet on the maps so the cleaners could have Googled the location nor put it in a GPS also adds a different perspective about the cleaners finding the right house.

I'm still not sure this is murder, but if the new information is correct, it makes the case stronger.

 

[mickey2942]

A delivery person said that often GPS and maps are wrong etc.
I know that Google maps in new subdivisions are pretty much worthless.

ETA: The house they were looking for isn't even on Google maps!

Windswept farms · 6949 gentle wind lane, Whitestown, IN 46075

Housing complex

maps.app.goo.gl

There was a time, when people actually asked for directions on how to get somewhere. Rather than relying on electronic information.

GPS is often useless in rural areas, new developments. Our house was built in 2020, and the GPS is still practically useless to find our house.

 

[sunspun]

I think of homicide and murder being the same. So, is it the charge, as in Murder one, Murder two, manslaughter: voluntary and involuntary. Are those the distinctions?

Well, homicide and murder are definitely not the same thing, but I've talked to many people who don't realize that. I think a lot of people think of them as interchangeable terms, like it sounds like you do, right? But I hope you'll stop thinking that now, because I'm sorry but it's wrong!

Any killing of a human by a human is homicide. Sometimes it is murder. But not always. It's even called homicide when it's legally excused (sanctioned by law), and no criminal charges are filed. Like self-defense. And cops using lethal force, providing it was necessary. And executions. Those are all justifiable homicides. So when you think of all homicide as murder, you're leaving out all those kinds of homicide.

Then there's criminal homicides. But not all those are murder either! The various terms differ depending what state (or jurisdiction) you're in, but manslaughter is the non-murder criminal homicide I think of first. And it can be voluntary or involuntary. Then, of course, as you know, some criminal homicides are murder of one sort or another (1st degree, 2nd degree, some places have 3rd degree, then there's what's called felony murder, which is oddly named since all murders are felonies...)

Back to the case under discussion, they're going to have to decide what kind of homicide they'll call this. If it were up to me, I would definitely call it criminal homicide, but I can understand why they might not call it murder. But they might! If it weren't for the fact that he shot THROUGH the door, I think the homeowner would have a lot less to worry about. That is not what a reasonable person would do, imo.

To be called murder, the intent to kill (malice) must be present. So that's a sticking point in my mind. Because yes, we know the homeowner intended to kill (or harm) when they fired their gun, but they didn't intend to kill or harm an innocent person who just had the wrong address. They intended to kill or harm a dangerous home intruder. So if the prosecution feels they can "transfer" that malice, they may charge with murder. It'd be a lot harder conviction to get, imo, if only they didn't shoot thru the door. That and the fact that they'd already called 911, so help was on the way.

 

[CuriousCricket]

There was a time, when people actually asked for directions on how to get somewhere. Rather than relying on electronic information.

GPS is often useless in rural areas, new developments. Our house was built in 2020, and the GPS is still practically useless to find our house.

There was a time when I was going to homes. Once I had the address and directions, I always asked for a description of the home: color, brick or clapboard, etc.

 

[CuriousCricket]

Well, homicide and murder are definitely not the same thing, but I've talked to many people who don't realize that. I think a lot of people think of them as interchangeable terms, like it sounds like you do, right? But I hope you'll stop thinking that now, because I'm sorry but it's wrong!

Any killing of a human by a human is homicide. Sometimes it is murder. But not always. It's even called homicide when it's legally excused (sanctioned by law), and no criminal charges are filed. Like self-defense. And cops using lethal force, providing it was necessary. And executions. Those are all justifiable homicides. So when you think of all homicide as murder, you're leaving out all those kinds of homicide.

Then there's criminal homicides. But not all those are murder either! The various terms differ depending what state (or jurisdiction) you're in, but manslaughter is the non-murder criminal homicide I think of first. And it can be voluntary or involuntary. Then, of course, as you know, some criminal homicides are murder of one sort or another (1st degree, 2nd degree, some places have 3rd degree, then there's what's called felony murder, which is oddly named since all murders are felonies...)

Back to the case under discussion, they're going to have to decide what kind of homicide they'll call this. If it were up to me, I would definitely call it criminal homicide, but I can understand why they might not call it murder. But they might! If it weren't for the fact that he shot THROUGH the door, I think the homeowner would have a lot less to worry about. That is not what a reasonable person would do, imo.

To be called murder, the intent to kill (malice) must be present. So that's a sticking point in my mind. Because yes, we know the homeowner intended to kill (or harm) when they fired their gun, but they didn't intend to kill or harm an innocent person who just had the wrong address. They intended to kill or harm a dangerous home intruder. So if the prosecution feels they can "transfer" that malice, they may charge with murder. It'd be a lot harder conviction to get, imo, if only they didn't shoot thru the door. That and the fact that they'd already called 911, so help was on the way.

Great post. Yes, this has been a case in which I have learned a few things and re-examined things in my head. Always a good thing, just in case . . .

This is a tragedy for all involved. Certainly for the family who has lost a beloved one, but also for the family whose life changed suddenly forever on a basic morning, maybe just getting up to start the day, have another cup of coffee, and BAM. Life as everyone knew it was over. So incredibly sad on both sides.

 

[IceIce9]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I only live about 10 minutes away from where this murder occurred. It is very common in our area for Amazon drivers to ring the doorbell as they’re dropping a package on the front porch and we also get Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, band students, ringing our doorbells and standing on our front porch.


To shoot through the front door because someone is standing on your porch is not the act of a reasonable human being.

If their employer had gone with them, it could’ve been the employer who got shot.

 

[IceIce9]

Years ago, I used to help a friend who cleaned model homes in new neighborhoods. We were always just given sets of keys to go and let ourselves in, because the homes were always vacant.

 

[IceIce9]

Hundreds mourn cleaning worker shot, killed after going to wrong Whitestown home

At the funeral home Sunday, family, friends and strangers paid their respects to Maria Florinda Rios Perez de Velasquez, a mother of four.

www.wthr.com

Gaspar said she wants the person responsible for de Velasquez's death to be held accountable.
RELATED: 'The only thing the family is demanding is justice for that coward' | Family of cleaning crew worker killed in Whitestown speaks out
She spoke at the funeral home and wore a safety vest with the words, "I'm a house cleaner" written on the back. She said it will help people identify her and hopefully prevent a tragedy like the one that claimed de Velasquez's life.

 

[Dotta]

Hundreds mourn cleaning worker shot, killed after going to wrong Whitestown home

At the funeral home Sunday, family, friends and strangers paid their respects to Maria Florinda Rios Perez de Velasquez, a mother of four.

www.wthr.com

Gaspar said she wants the person responsible for de Velasquez's death to be held accountable.
RELATED: 'The only thing the family is demanding is justice for that coward' | Family of cleaning crew worker killed in Whitestown speaks out
She spoke at the funeral home and wore a safety vest with the words, "I'm a house cleaner" written on the back. She said it will help people identify her and hopefully prevent a tragedy like the one that claimed de Velasquez's life.

Re the safety fluorescent yellow vests

This is a good idea in these mad times.

It reminds me of ambulance crew vests I once saw:

"Paramedic. Don't shoot"

 

[Dotta]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

An employer surely knows the location,
and the very apartment itself.

As this case shows
it seems to be hazardous to leave workers <modsnip> to their own devices.

At least they should have been given a map with the place distinctly marked.

JMO

 

[Gators North]

Re the safety fluorescent yellow vests

This is a good idea in these mad times.

It reminds me of ambulance crew vests I once saw:

"Paramedic. Don't shoot"

It says a lot about the world we live in when you have to wear a vest that says “Don’t shoot.” JMO.

 

[tara83]

Re the safety fluorescent yellow vests

This is a good idea in these mad times.

It reminds me of ambulance crew vests I once saw:

"Paramedic. Don't shoot"

I'm really ashamed of this country that this is what people have to resort to.

 

[Dotta]

It says a lot about the world we live in when you have to wear a vest that says “Don’t shoot.” JMO.

Paramedics wear these signs in hostile environments, esp. during conflicts, wars, etc.

DON'T SHOOT PARAMEDIC Big XL 10x4 inch EMT EMS MEDIC Embroidered Nylon Touch Fastener Patch : Amazon.de: Home & Kitchen

DON'T SHOOT PARAMEDIC Big XL 10x4 inch EMT EMS MEDIC Embroidered Nylon Touch Fastener Patch : Amazon.de: Home & Kitchen

www.amazon.de

Getting off the X: the uncomfortable new world of high hazard no-notice situations

What do you do when that "routine call" becomes a life-threatening Hot Zone?

companycommander.com

 

[ChatteringBirds]

"...Three girls without their mother, an 11-month-old boy constantly crying, and a father trying to be strong for all of them. That's their reality following the shooting death of Maria..."

Mourners gather for funeral of woman killed in Whitestown as support pours in

While her loved ones rallied around the family physically, people are donating and gathering to demand justice for Maria Florinda Ríos Pérez.

www.indystar.com

 

[justtrish]

This case is so bothersome to me. There have been several others in recent years as well. I am fully supportive of 2A and my husband and I are gun owners. Part of that responsibility means we are levelheaded, not quick to judge any situation, we teach everyone in our home gun safety and that includes when/where/how to use a gun.

I'm really not sure how someone is threatened when the person is still outside on the porch and your door is locked. I don't feel at any point shooting through a door is something someone should do simply because someone your door. Did this person talk through the door and ask why they were there, what did they need (maybe they needed help or as in this case they were at the wrong house). I'd say unless you live in a seriously crime ridden location, then way more times than not when someone is on your porch and you don't know them, they are simply at the wrong house, they are selling something, or another innocent reason. rarely would I think someone would be on your porch making so much noise during daylight outs to break in and even less likely they were there to harm you. I think if the person is that fearful, they should call 911, they could go upstairs and open a window to yell down for them to leave, they could have made a lot of noise in the house because surely a burglar wouldn't want to continue to come in if they heard people awake and moving around. I think the very last possible action should have been to shoot through a closed door.

The only reason I could think to do that at all would be if I knew the person and I knew I was in immediate danger because of past history like in partner violence, stalker, etc. Then and only then could I see shooting through a door. I'd still be yelling for them to leave or I'd shoot.

 

[MrsWatson]

No excuse to shoot through a closed door, with 911 on the way, unless you are just itching for an excuse to shoot, imo.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

This is one of those cases, isn't it? While we think we know what we would do, while we may have run scenarios in our head to have a plan in place, if we have never been in that position, how can we know how we would react?

When terror comes in and reason may leave, how do we know what each would do?

In addition, didn't the cleaners have some responsibility to think, this isn't working, maybe we need to go to the car to make a call? Say, "hey Mrs. Smith, we're here but we can't get in." Something to check?

Unfortunately, I fear that, like them, I would have kept trying without thinking I had the wrong house. Without any thought I was terrorizing someone inside. I do think though, eventually, it would occur to me it could be dangerous. By that time, it might be too late.

But multiple people, actively trying to get in? Trying to pick the lock as it may have seemed to the person inside. You're old, or not old, but alone, and more than one person trying to get your door open?

I THINK in the calm safety of today, I would wait in a room, hidden behind a chair or sofa with padding that is thicker than bullets penetrate (according to parafin tests) and wait for them to come into the room I'm in. Then "pick them off as they come through the door" - BTW wishful thinking from the last time I was at the range. I would have to hope a shot would scare them off.

That's the plan. Hide and wait. It's never been tested, and I hope it never is because I simply do not know how I would react. How can anyone who has not been there?

This is certainly a good case for discussion, though, as it makes us think -- both as the person inside a home and anyone trying to get into a home they think is open.

What about yelling, "I've called 9-1-1. Get away from the door or I'll shoot?" Or "Turn the knob again and I'll shoot"

On the other hand, when I can't think, those words probably would not come into my mind and I doubt I would be able to get words out. Sometimes, I can't.

What might have helped in this situation? Or a similar situation we might find ourselves in on either side.

RBBM

I think a good policy would be to ring the doorbell or knock even if you expect the house to be uninhabited. Similar to what housekeeping does before gaining entrance to your hotel room.

 

[CuriousCricket]

No excuse to shoot through a closed door, with 911 on the way, unless you are just itching for an excuse to shoot, imo.

I agree with this. Unfortunately, I also wonder if a person is afraid, how long before terror kicks in and you do something stupid?

How long does someone remain reasonable? How long are you able to think before "instinct" (that is prob not the right word) takes over?

Having become a gun owner at 70, I have been pondering these situations for a few years now.

 

[Friday Fan]

RBBM

I think a good policy would be to ring the doorbell or knock even if you expect the house to be uninhabited. Similar to what housekeeping does before gaining entrance to your hotel room.

You and I would probably know if a house looks lived in. But they were recently from Guatemala. What looks "lived in" to us, may not look "lived in" to them. I didn't see any vehicles in the driveway. The only decorations were two chairs on the porch. The yard, driveway were pretty much immaculate. Also the home was located at an area where model homes are often located. The only thing missing was a sign and a lock box.


If it was me, I probably would have questioned whether it was a model home, mainly because there was no sign and vacant homes usually have a lock box. But I'm from here.