CO - 3 killed in shootout near/at Planned Parenthood in Colorado Springs, 27 Nov 2015 *Arrest*

[Treelights]

"Colorado mass shootings prompt changes in police tactics."

"POSTED 6:58 PM, NOVEMBER 29, 2015"

http://kdvr.com/2015/11/29/colorado-mass-shootings-prompt-changes-in-police-tactics/

 

[K_Z]

Funny, I was thinking something along those lines. Once he was isolated and not taking care of himself whatever was going on festered and got worse. He moved far away from his home too so maybe there was even some culture shock which might have contributed to him isolating himself even more. Just some thoughts.

I think one of the most frustrating things about so many rampage killings is that while there may be "signs" many admit to noticing after the fact, there is so often nothing lawfully compelling in the perpetrator's behavior BEFORE the rampage event. Nothing that is so worrisome that it should have compelled an involuntary mental health hold, or compelled mental health treatment.

While we all seem to agree that this man was deeply mentally disturbed, there are literally thousands, if not millions, of citizens who are equally, or more, disturbed, and have ignored or avoided any kind of diagnosis or treatment. That's a big, big problem for ALL of us.

Because of citizen's rights, and the abject incompetent shambles that passes as our mental health system, the bar is extremely high to compel any kind of MH treatment or diagnosis for citizens who have not YET committed any kind of violence against themselves or others.

Lots of us can recognize mental health issues that rise to a level of clinical illness, but it seems none of us are smart enough to design or construct laws that allow us to compel intervention BEFORE someone goes on a rampage killing.

We are trapped by our own inability as a society to construct some kind of policies to safeguard the public, while also safeguarding the rights of the untreated, undiagnosed mentally ill among us.

Mental illness is the elephant in our metaphorical room. There is no way to control that, or *fix* that.

So we, as a society, focus on "things" that we can more easily control and restrict, like gun laws, background checks, etc, in an impotent attempt to prevent the mentally ill from obtaining weapons. SMH.

That is my huge frustration.

Meanwhile, the next rampage killing by a radicalized and/ or mentally ill perp is only a short time away. So we just hope and pray.

Failure should not be an option. And hope is not a plan. IMO.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Mental illness is the elephant in our metaphorical room. There is no way to control that, or *fix* that.

So we, as a society, focus on "things" that we can more easily control and restrict, like gun laws, background checks, etc, in an impotent attempt to prevent the mentally ill from obtaining weapons. SMH.

That is my huge frustration.

Meanwhile, the next rampage killing by a radicalized and/ or mentally ill perp is only a short time away. So we just hope and pray.

Failure should not be an option. And hope is not a plan. IMO.

S&BBM

While I agree that it's not easy to deal with the mentally ill, I think that we should work diligently in trying to prevent them from harming the innocent.

 

[Chuz Life]

<snipped for brevity>

Mental illness is the elephant in our metaphorical room. There is no way to control that, or *fix* that.

So we, as a society, focus on "things" that we can more easily control and restrict, like gun laws, background checks, etc, in an impotent attempt to prevent the mentally ill from obtaining weapons. SMH.

That is my huge frustration.

May I ask the question. . . "What about mentally stable gun owners or potential gun owners?" Do you agree that they (we?) have the Constitutional right to own firearms - if we want them?

If your answer to that is Yes, then I have a follow up question for you.

"What is there to prevent a "normal minded" person who purchased their firearms 'legally' from snapping or from going crazy at some point later in their life, when they already guns of their own or access to somebody else's?"

It doesn't take much for anyone who has a sound mind - to walk through an airport, into a shopping mall or into a large crowd of people and realize how easy it would be to get a gun and to bring it into that situation.

The point is, this. No matter how difficult you make it for mentally unstable people to get their hands on guns, those laws will not prevent any changes in a person's mental capacity after the fact. A person can be of a completely normal state of mind at the time they decide to purchase or own a gun and never know THEMSELF that their mental stability might change at any point thereafter.

Until our government can read everyone's mind and then preemptively react to criminal thoughts and intentions before they take place. . . the initial advantage is always going to be in favor of the criminals. The best deterrence to a bad guy with a gun is a bunch of good guys with guns.

 

[bluesneakers]

From the Onion...
‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

“This was a terrible tragedy, but sometimes these things just happen and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them,”

“It’s a shame, but what can we do? There really wasn’t anything that was going to keep this guy from snapping and killing a lot of people if that’s what he really wanted.”

At press time, residents of the only economically advanced nation in the world where roughly two mass shootings have occurred every month for the past five years were referring to themselves and their situation as “helpless.”

It really, really feels like this sometimes.

 

[margarita25]

rsbm

THE KNOWN VICTIMS:
GARRETT SWASEY
KE'ARRE STEWART
JENNIFER MARKOVSKY

I wonder if he has any other victims out there.

 

[margarita25]

I am sorry that you're going through this right now, and I'm sure it hits home much more for you (literally, because it's your home) than any of us can understand (aside from actually going through this type of situation)...

I think from my perspective is that the reason Dear's name is mentioned so much is because we are trying to help... by sleuthing, a mass meeting of the minds in one thread so we can figure out WHY this keeps happening, the traits or warning signs we can look for going forward to try to help stop it from happening or see warning signs, so more people don't die.

Also part of it is TOS- victim friendly board, when the suspect or perp is named, we can talk about it, and we try to keep the victims from becoming part of the mess as much as possible out of respect to the deceased and out of respect for those who have wounds so deep they may never recover emotionally.

Our way of helping (IMO, obviously) is to sleuth it out as hard as possible to bring these awful people to justice and try to stop the same thing from happening ever again. So yeah, it does facilitate a situation where the bad guy's name keeps being brought up, but we do that in honor and respect for the victims to try to make the world a better place after all of the horrible things they went through.

So many hugs to you.

Maybe there is a separate thread we can start to honor the victims and talk about their accomplishments and celebrate their lives in some way?

Great post :heart:

 

[margarita25]

So now that every major agency in this country is investigating this guy from birth, it will be very interesting to see what they find imo.

 

[CARIIS]

Dear will appear from a courtroom facility at the El Paso County Jail and the hearing starts at 1:30 pm (2030 GMT) on Monday, when a judge will advise him of his rights.


http://news.yahoo.com/obama-says-enough-enough-latest-us-shooting-141938057.html

 

[CARIIS]

We do this all the time .Govt folks are now calling for more protection around clincs nationwide. Remember the recruitment base shooting , and then posted LE at them. I bet they are no longer there!

After Holmes there was LE a ttheatres for a bit.

After Sandy Hook a big ruckus about school security. Then nothing.

After a couple of WHite House jumpers some spikes were installed.

After the one at military complex cars were searched intensily for a bit .

"Measures" last for a little bit then when it goes out of the news cycle it all goes away.moo

In background some congressman is telling the world this is rprehensible..

Switch chanels another is telling us awful

Bla bla any of here or anywhere need to be "told" this junk ?

Instead of being back in their offices working on our crumbling roads, power grid that was built in the 50's , conjested airspace - they are being driven , at tax payers expense, to go to a studio to say nothing, congress iMO is pathetic.

Rock starts go on tour - its private business, these folks need to put in a full days work once i a while

now this big budget deal is coming - they do nothing until the end (so they can start their 6 week holiday break) pass stuff they dont even know whats in the bill and go vacation. In 18 months we then investigate for years and billions, the bill they passed 18 months earlier that none of em read


Its numbing - term limits pls -- some young will be nice up on captial hill. Half of em (I am not good here either) do not even what email is - we need a congress that has a pulse on what is really going on

rant over



http://news.yahoo.com/obama-says-enough-enough-latest-us-shooting-141938057.html

 

[margarita25]

Treelights,

I just wanted to say I know what it feels like to have things like this happen in your community, on many levels. Remember your wonderful posts about Long Live Co Springs and all that good stuff in NoCo after the first rampage shooting? This sucks so bad, and my heart goes out to all you guys...it's sickening, and enraging. As far as Dear goes, you guys have your killers down there, one's dead, one's in custody. We don't. There are a lot of people who want answers around here as to who killed John Jacoby, who killed William "Bill" Connolly (as a local WS member knows him as), who shot Cori Romero in the neck while she was driving down I 25, etc etc...what I'm sayin hon is that we have to look at this guy, not only for NoCo imo, but other things! I mean, animal cruelty, domestic violence, peeping tom, sadomasichism, mass shooting, Cheese n Rice! Just because we talk about the killer, it does not mean we do not care about the victims. Total opposite, we care so much. You know that...I can see my house in these Noco maps, I drive these roads every day, so do people I care about, you better believe I'm going to be on this guy like stink on s h$t.

Hugs.

 

[K_Z]

The point is, this. No matter how difficult you make it for mentally unstable people to get their hands on guns, those laws will not prevent any changes in a person's mental capacity after the fact. A person can be of a completely normal state of mind at the time they decide to purchase or own a gun and never know THEMSELF that their mental stability might change at any point thereafter.

Until our government can read everyone's mind and then preemptively react to criminal thoughts and intentions before they take place. . . the initial advantage is always going to be in favor of the criminals. The best deterrence to a bad guy with a gun is a bunch of good guys with guns.

(Snipped by me for focus.)

Exactly. And therein lies my frustration.

In order to safeguard the rights of the "many", the only answer is to restrict the perceived rights of the "few"-- which is perceived as fascist by many. Fascism is an extremely unpalatable solution for many, if not most, of the lawful, voting citizens of this country-- even if it results in more safety. No one wants to be responsible for the restriction of rights for the "few", when it cannot be somehow conclusively *proven* that pre-emptive restriction of rights safeguards the "many". Because someday, you or I might be "the few" instead of "the many."

And so, we have politics.

Otherwise defined as a battle of opinion versus fact.

 

[bluesneakers]

We do this all the time .Govt folks are now calling for more protection around clincs nationwide. Remember the recruitment base shooting , and then posted LE at them. I bet they are no longer there!

After Holmes there was LE a ttheatres for a bit.

After Sandy Hook a big ruckus about school security. Then nothing.

After a couple of WHite House jumpers some spikes were installed.

After the one at military complex cars were searched intensily for a bit .

"Measures" last for a little bit then when it goes out of the news cycle it all goes away.moo

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-says-enough-enough-latest-us-shooting-141938057.html

&#8220;This is not normal,&#8221; he said in a statement. &#8220;We can&#8217;t let it become normal."

The cynic in me says it's too late and this is our normal now.

Both parts.

 

[AmyPond]

S&BBM

While I agree that it's not easy to deal with the mentally ill, I think that we should work diligently in trying to prevent them from harming the innocent.

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way...but he way it's written makes it sound like all "mentally ill" people are ticking time bombs just waiting to go off and inflict violence on the world. And that really is far from reality.

 

[CARIIS]

Also, I found out about it about 6 hrs in - how long after it started was first from the scene video from a news outlet on scene?

ANy video I find seems to be like two hours in??

The injured man staggered into the grocery store, his face and chest bloodied. Customers stopped and stared. “He lifted his shirt up, and he had holes in his chest,” said Miranda Schilter, 17, who had been waiting for a drink at an in-store coffee shop.

turning a bustling snow-covered shopping center into a tableau of chaos and fear that lasted for more than five hours.

Schilter dived behind the coffee counter when the shooting began. A woman who identified herself as a nurse rushed to help the bloodied man who had just walked in.

300 were forced to shelter in place in the shopping areas nearby ...

Those inside the clinic holed up in an ultrasound room and other hideaways.

rampage cut short a busy workday at the clinic, with 30 people signed up for appointments

officers had been able to see where people had taken cover and were able to rescue some of them because they were a distance from the gunman.

“He started yelling that he was ready to give up,”

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/27/us/planned-parenthood-shooting-colorado-springs.html

...

 

[Treelights]

May I ask the question. . . "What about mentally stable gun owners or potential gun owners?" Do you agree that they (we?) have the Constitutional right to own firearms - if we want them?

If your answer to that is Yes, then I have a follow up question for you.

"What is there to prevent a "normal minded" person who purchased their firearms 'legally' from snapping or from going crazy at some point later in their life, when they already guns of their own or access to somebody else's?"

It doesn't take much for anyone who has a sound mind - to walk through an airport, into a shopping mall or into a large crowd of people and realize how easy it would be to get a gun and to bring it into that situation.

The point is, this. No matter how difficult you make it for mentally unstable people to get their hands on guns, those laws will not prevent any changes in a person's mental capacity after the fact. A person can be of a completely normal state of mind at the time they decide to purchase or own a gun and never know THEMSELF that their mental stability might change at any point thereafter.

Until our government can read everyone's mind and then preemptively react to criminal thoughts and intentions before they take place. . . the initial advantage is always going to be in favor of the criminals. The best deterrence to a bad guy with a gun is a bunch of good guys with guns.

And I don't know if this topic is Off Topic or what....
What I want to know is, if a person is mentally unstable, can they legally acquire a fire arm?
Is there a law right now against a mentally unstable person and guns?
What if a person were to take meds, and they wanted a gun, wouldn't they have a right to own a gun, or not?
How far will the law go in the future? Or is there a law like that right now?
What happens if a person stops taking meds? And still owns a gun?
Will it get to the point that people won't even go in for a diagnosis in a medical facility because they might
be afraid they won't be allowed to own a gun?
These are questions that I have and I don't know if this is the thread for those questions, as this could
be off topic? I don't want to be off topic here....
IMOO.

 

[Bobbywoo]

I think one of the most frustrating things about so many rampage killings is that while there may be "signs" many admit to noticing after the fact, there is so often nothing lawfully compelling in the perpetrator's behavior BEFORE the rampage event. Nothing that is so worrisome that it should have compelled an involuntary mental health hold, or compelled mental health treatment.

While we all seem to agree that this man was deeply mentally disturbed, there are literally thousands, if not millions, of citizens who are equally, or more, disturbed, and have ignored or avoided any kind of diagnosis or treatment. That's a big, big problem for ALL of us.

Because of citizen's rights, and the abject incompetent shambles that passes as our mental health system, the bar is extremely high to compel any kind of MH treatment or diagnosis for citizens who have not YET committed any kind of violence against themselves or others.

Lots of us can recognize mental health issues that rise to a level of clinical illness, but it seems none of us are smart enough to design or construct laws that allow us to compel intervention BEFORE someone goes on a rampage killing.

We are trapped by our own inability as a society to construct some kind of policies to safeguard the public, while also safeguarding the rights of the untreated, undiagnosed mentally ill among us.

Mental illness is the elephant in our metaphorical room. There is no way to control that, or *fix* that.

So we, as a society, focus on "things" that we can more easily control and restrict, like gun laws, background checks, etc, in an impotent attempt to prevent the mentally ill from obtaining weapons. SMH.

That is my huge frustration.

Meanwhile, the next rampage killing by a radicalized and/ or mentally ill perp is only a short time away. So we just hope and pray.

Failure should not be an option. And hope is not a plan. IMO.

Great post IMO. Mental illness......there is no clear way to deal with it or predict the actions of it. And your insurance company sure the hell won't cover the full treatment of it. It's that scary and unpredictable grey area that can flip at any minute that we can't seem to accept in our loved ones or predict. Hind sight is 20/20.

 

[K_Z]

The cynic in me says it's too late and this is our normal now.

Both parts.

I agree. Rampage killings, mass murders, (terrorism, too), etc. are a "new normal" for all civilized people now.

So, IMO, all we can do is exercise personal responsibility, vigilance, and preparedness for such events. It's not possible, IMO, to prevent these occurrences, and I believe they will continue to increase. It's up to each of us to decide if we give in to fear and anxiety, and crawl into a hole, and withdraw from society, or continue to live our lives fully immersed, with increased vigilance and preparedness. (Or plunge ahead oblivious to any and all dangers, as some do!)

I have no idea what the "right" answer is for most people. I just know what works for me, and my family. Or, at least what makes us (my family) all feel more in control, and less anxious.

 

[margarita25]

So, it was all so intense when all this initially went down, (I had downstairs going with speakers, the tv, the threads, I finally just turned everything off except downstairs, anyway), from a weapons perspective, what do we know? AK, I thought I heard other handguns but maybe I imagined that, then the propane tanks, I remember hearing on the TV that they think that his car was rigged with explosives (what kind), confirmation on bb (animal cruelty), anyway, will see what I can find in msm; I wonder if he still has any of his dad's old military guns, I bet he does.

 

[CARIIS]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/27/us/planned-parenthood-shooting-colorado-springs.html