CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #49

[Redhead72]

Hi all! I'm still here! Been lurking mostly.

Anyway I was wondering the same thing... Would that be their job?

I think the search team would likely be utilized in all sorts of dangerous situations like diving this specific lake. I'm sure they'll work somehow in conjunction with LE.

They could be arranging to have a deputy there to supervise, or even the CBI could send an agent. If there was anything found then obviously they wouldn't be retrieving anything without having the LE there to document everything and take possession of anything I would presume when they did.

They could take video of whatever they find before they move anything, too - to document where the items were found, and how.

They could also call in the police divers to retrieve things if they located something, and marked where it was.

All of the above is MOO! :cow:

 

[cluciano63]

I hope LE will be aware and present once searching does begin. As far as we know, they are no closer to finding Dylan.

 

[Redhead72]

I think there are search groups that would not charge LE, TES being one, and they have sonar equipment.

The thing about this dive though is that it takes specialized divers. Even when the water is warmer, there is still risk to the divers due to the altitude and the depth of the water where it is deepest. The one that apparently donated their services to the family apparently has ROVs as well - mini-subs with video.

That I think is going to be the best tool in this search. There are so many tree stumps in the bottom that it'd be hard to identify something using sonar, imo - not exactly sure about that though.

I agree that the budget is one that's hard for me to accept - that they would not do it because of money - especially if there are S&R teams that would do it all for free for LE Agencies.

Anyway, I think whatever search team is coming to help, they will do their best, and I will be praying about it. The wait must be tearing Dylan's family apart.

 

[Redhead72]

The FMDR page has posted that they are waiting for several search teams to become available and that it will be mid-May at the earliest before a team can get there. A trip around the lake today by boat revealed nothing. But at least the ice is off the water.

Could the delay be due to the water temperatures? I was hoping it would be a lot sooner that they could get up there and search. That's got to be hard for ER, CR, and all of DR's other family members and friends to wait that long...

 

[The Cheese]

The New Mexico State Police Search and Recovery Dive Team called off its search for Dylan Redwine in Vallecito Reservoir on Monday night, said Lt. Jennie Pierce, the commander of the dive team.

snipped

The New Mexico State Police dive team started searching the bottom of Vallecito Reservoir in southwest Colorado for Dylan on Sunday when cadaver-sniffing police dogs homed in on a section of the reservoir, Pierce said.

The dive team spent two days searching the area and is confident the dogs were wrong, Pierce said.

"We had a specific area we were asked to search," she said. "At this time, we feel that he's not there."

http://www.daily-times.com/ci_22071476/colorado-boy-still-missing-after-two-day-underwater

I think from the above as well as what Bender's said, that LE feels they did a complete and adequate search, and there's no reason for them to go back down again.

From my memory from when I went back through all the articles and videos on the LE lake search in November -

They had 3/4 boats with 3/4 sonar things, scanning the bottom for anything that looked like it didn't belong there. Each time they found something, a diver went down to check it out.

They had 7 divers, which seems to me would cover that the divers could only go down 20 to 30 minutes at a time due to the altitude affecting the flow of oxygen and nitrogen.

They searched an area 20 times the size of where the dogs hit, along the dam (south side of the lake), and along the east side of the lake.

I couldn't find anything indicating LE or the SAR or divers felt there was something left undone or was incomplete.

I think they got the hits, brought in the SAR/divers to check out the hits, didn't find anything, and cleared it. Bender said if they received any more clues something was down there, they'd go back down. They haven't received anything that they didn't already have - reported dog hits on the lake.

Personally, I don't think there's a body in the south or east sides lake, but with a body of water that big, there's never a guarantee.

If Elaine's search/dive team finds a body, I would think they'd report it immediately to LE, and that LE will do the recovery, or give approval for Elaine's team to do the recovery. I think LE would have to dive to check for any surrounding evidence, and preserve the chain of custody. I don't know though.

I certainly understand Elaine wanting to do her own search of the lake. I don't think LE could or would ever tell a parent that they 100% guarantee their child's body isn't in a large body of water. It would be agony as a parent to have the constant "what ifs" eating at your mind, so I understand her wanting to do her own lake search, and she has my prayers and support in her efforts.

All just my opinion. Sorry for such a long post. I wanted to get out everything that's been on my mind.

:cow:

 

[catswhiskers]

I was going back through old footage and stories last night, and watched this clip featuring an interview with one of the NM divers:

Koat TV, November 29 2012

 

[The Cheese]

Dive team head Lt. Jennie Pierce says their work was double checked and then triple checked.

I'm transcribing this from the video, because the quote in the article is wrong.

"We've double checked our work and now we have fellow law enforcement from the area triple checking our work, just because we're basically going off of tips - we don't have an actual last known location, so we want to cover as much ground as we possibly can."

http://www.krextv.com/news/around-t...hing-for-Clues-in-Missing-Teen-180945881.html

 

[The Cheese]

FMDR post says they contacted several groups this winter, and now they have to wait for one of those groups to become available; everyone's busy on other searches right now, I guess.

I just get more and more curious about LE and the lake. This just seems to me like this is LEs job, and having an unsupervised third party come in to what may turn into a murder investigation seems like a bad idea.

Late night thinking and just MOO of course.

I was surprised when I read that they have to wait until mid-May for one of several teams to come available, because I thought I had read they had picked a team they thought was the best in the world, have the best equipment, great recovery stats, and would be there as soon as the ice cleared.

I just went through the posts on FMDR and checked, and they did say they that.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...555396767820264.144727.555378941155380&type=1

I wonder what happened. I'm glad they were able to find other teams though.

 

[The Cheese]

I added the links for the claims I've made recently about the LE lake search in November to the Search thread. Copying them here.

Specific claims I've made are:

• LE searched east end of lake
• LE searched south end of lake
• 7 divers
• 3/4 boats with 3/4 sonar systems
• LE searched an area 20 times the size of where the dogs hit

Here are quotes and links:

The La Plata County Sheriff's Office says they've searched the east side of the lake with divers and sonar in the past and weren't able to find anything.

http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S2946344.shtml?cat=504

Seven New Mexico State Police scuba divers used three different boats with four different sonar systems to sweep the southern end of Vallecito Lake Monday.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...lorado-teen-dylan-redwine-planned-for-tuesday

BENDER: We`re still searching in the area, the Vallecito area. However, it`s a very large lake. It takes 12 miles to drive around the entire lake. And we were searching, the reason we brought up the divers and the sonar and such is because of the dog alerts in a very small area. Our search by the divers and sonar actually covered an area probably 20 times the (INAUDIBLE) where the dogs alerted and there was simply nothing found there.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1211/28/ng.01.html

 

[mixologist74]

I went back to get the names from the article so I could do some searching with your idea or query in mind. The article only identifies 11 of the twelve arrested. The 31 year old person whose home they initially searched and ultimately arrested for assault on a child is not identified. At least I don't see the name. Odd.

I believe that the minor's name was the only one missing.

 

[scorekeeper]

I still would like to see high powered or the sideview sonar used (and not high powered fish finders) plus the ROVs.

I wonder if LE put the "hold" on the lake searchers?

I too thought the Foundation had everything arranged for the searchers and was only waiting for the ice to clear and looking for places for the searchers to stay.

Wonder if something else is leading them elsewhere?

Dylan needs to come home, been way to long...

 

[AnotherSetOfEyes]

I believe that the minor's name was the only one missing.

His name is not given, but he is one of eleven given. I looked around on other media and could not find anything with the name of the first person mentioned in the article. The person whose computer they found all the data on initially.

 

[AnotherSetOfEyes]

My heart just breaks looking at the pictures on FMDR. That beautiful country where most go for recreation and to drink in that magnificent scenery. And here are three friends on a very sad mission searching for Dylan. The boat driver's face says it all.

 

[The Cheese]

I still would like to see high powered or the sideview sonar used (and not high powered fish finders) plus the ROVs.

I wonder if LE put the "hold" on the lake searchers?

I too thought the Foundation had everything arranged for the searchers and was only waiting for the ice to clear and looking for places for the searchers to stay.

Wonder if something else is leading them elsewhere?

Dylan needs to come home, been way to long...

Were none of the four sonar systems used high powered or side-scan? Were they all fish finders? I know from Kevin Torres' facebook at the time that they were looking for a fish finder, but I thought they'd said that the divers from N.M. brought sonar on the 2nd day.

 

[scorekeeper]

Were none of the four sonar systems used high powered or sideview? Were they all fish finders? I know from Kevin Torres' facebook at the time that they were looking for a fish finder, but I thought they'd said that the divers from N.M. brought sonar on the 2nd day.

I hope N.M. brought something powerful. Will go back and look.

Thanks for the reminder!

 

[Crosby87]

Regarding custody of Dylan, when Dylan moved to CS in July 2012 Mark still shared custody of Dylan with Elaine but because she wanted Dylan to attend school in CS, she petitioned the Court to have custody of Dylan “permanently” addressed.

If the Judge ruled in Elaine’s favor at the hearing on September 21st, Mark stood to loose custody of Dylan and there was nothing he could legally do to stop this from happening.

Mark rarely saw Dylan consistently over the last few years so did Mark assert his custodial rights in September to bring Dylan back to Vallecito before the hearing to show he intended to fight the order and keep Dylan in Bayfield/Vallecito despite what happened at Court?

After Mark lost custody of Dylan he refused to drive Dylan to his friend’s place and Dylan and all his belongings are now "lost". Imo Dylan’s texts Sunday evening convey an urgent need to escape from his father. At the start of the investigation LE announced they believe Dylan got into a situation beyond his control or something to that effect and I believe Dylan’s texts to Ryan prove this.

Mark’s behavior Sunday night is very suspicious because he wouldn’t let Dylan do anything after he arrived. Dylan was not allowed to “leave” to visit his friends or “move” around from place to place and Mark was the last person Dylan was with.

MOO

 

[scorekeeper]

Bender said the sonar boats make runs parallel to the dam and then perpendicular to the structure in order to leave no area unscrutinized. One sonar boat belongs to the New Mexico State Police, another is the personal boat of La Plata County Sheriff’s Deputy Jerry Little.


Sonar impulses home in on objects that don’t match the size or shape of what is normally found on the bottom of a body of water.


Divers have to be used judiciously, Bender said. The elevation of Vallecito, 7,700 feet, the 38 degree water and its depth, 40 feet, allow them to search safely for only 20 to 30 minutes.

http://www.durangoherald.com/article/20121126/NEWS01/121129702/0/rss/Frustration-mounting

The water temp is now around 48 degrees

http://www.fishingnotes.com/lakeinfo.php?id=3115

On Sunday, the sheriff's office asked for New Mexico State Police to search the bottom of the reservoir, Bender said.

New Mexico police have more divers and more sophisticated equipment than law enforcement agencies in southwest Colorado, he said.

New Mexico's dive team is comprised of state police officers from all across the state. It goes on about 30 to 40 recovery missions per year, including several at Navajo Lake, Pierce said.

The team searched the south end of the reservoir on Sunday and didn't find any clues about Dylan's whereabouts, Bender said.

On Monday, six members of the scuba-diving team boarded New Mexico State Police boats equipped with sonar and crisscrossed the lake, Bender said.

http://www.elpasotimes.com/newmexico/ci_22071476/colorado-boy-still-missing-after-two-day-underwater

 

[The Cheese]

I hope N.M. brought something powerful. Will go back and look.

Thanks for the reminder!

I've been searching for what kind of equipment the New Mexico State Police team has and the only thing I've been able to find is that one of the sonar thingies they used in Dylan's search is a "high-powered sonar gun". No model name given. Nothing about the other 3 sonar things used, assuming the gun was used on one boat.

(They also use something called a Pulse 8X, which is a metal detector, when they dive to search bodies of water for weapons.)

I'll keep poking around and see what I can find.

 

[Redhead72]

I added the links for the claims I've made recently about the LE lake search in November to the Search thread. Copying them here.

Specific claims I've made are:

• LE searched east end of lake
• LE searched south end of lake
• 7 divers
• 3/4 boats with 3/4 sonar systems
• LE searched an area 20 times the size of where the dogs hit

Here are quotes and links:

The La Plata County Sheriff's Office says they've searched the east side of the lake with divers and sonar in the past and weren't able to find anything.

http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S2946344.shtml?cat=504

Seven New Mexico State Police scuba divers used three different boats with four different sonar systems to sweep the southern end of Vallecito Lake Monday.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...lorado-teen-dylan-redwine-planned-for-tuesday

BENDER: We`re still searching in the area, the Vallecito area. However, it`s a very large lake. It takes 12 miles to drive around the entire lake. And we were searching, the reason we brought up the divers and the sonar and such is because of the dog alerts in a very small area. Our search by the divers and sonar actually covered an area probably 20 times the (INAUDIBLE) where the dogs alerted and there was simply nothing found there.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1211/28/ng.01.html

I understand all of that. And, I thank you for bringing forward the statements and such again as well.

The thing is that back in November the divers could only go down 40 feet into a lake that is 167 feet deep over by the dam. They only had visibility of 8-10 feet under the water. They could not go all the way down to the bottom - which is where anything would have been at that time. How well would sonar work with a bottom that is full of debris vs. a "flat" bottom lake. There is a forest of stumps at the bottom of this lake. (I'm only used to seeing the sonar pictures of the sort that were in your linked .pdf, so I don't know how a backpack, or a body would show up vs. a tree stump and brush.)

I am not questioning NM divers or their team. I'm only pointing out the obvious difficulties involved in searching this specific lake - with the altitude, the water depth, and the temperatures of the water.

Here's the question I'm left with to LE - divers, or anyone else involved in searching the lake... We know the dogs hit on something. Bender has said it may be a large mammal - like an elk. Elk are massive creatures... (A bull elk can stand 5ft. tall at the shoulders, and weigh 700 lbs.). Yet, even with all the dives they didn't find an elk or other large mammal, either...

So, something is in the lake, and it's likely at the very bottom... The dogs hit on something (and have as recently as February a full 3 months after the LE called off their official dives). It's either an animal that could weigh as much as 700 pounds and would be much bigger than a boy's body, or there is (more likely) a person's body in the lake - whether Dylan's or someone else's.

They didn't find anything that could explain away the hits completely - especially not the hits they got in February in the same places. (Remember decomp is extremely slow in very cold water, and with the depth and temperature in the lake decomp could have been slowed tremendously as at depth I would assume the water temperature is not above 45 degrees - even now as the average lake temp. is only 48 - and that's based on an algorithm and not actually recording of the water itself in various areas).

As always, all of the above is MOO! I remain skeptical that LE could completely rule the lake out as they didn't find an explanation for the dogs' hits - especially the later ones.

The NM dive team did an incredible job, risked their lives to do the dives, had their work double- and triple-checked as I'm sure they always do. I have no doubt that they put in their best-faith efforts, and it sounds to me like the dive team is pretty convinced he isn't in there.

I don't believe they are in a position to completely rule out the lake - although I do believe they are in a position to not be able to justify expenditure for a continued search, especially given the risks diving in this lake entails.

I wish that there was a way the private/professional search team could get there sooner. It would be much easier for me to dismiss the lake itself if there were a more thorough search in warmer water, with ROV's.

That's where I am on this part. I don't believe the LE is necessarily lying about what the dive team believes - I'm just of the opinion that a more thorough search should be done with other technologies given the limitations of the first search team.

I guess you could call this holding out hope as well... I just want answers and I'm afraid if Dylan isn't in the lake then truly "his bones are just laying out there somewhere" as ER worries about, or buried somewhere, and then how would we ever get any answers? I just want Dylan to be able to come home to his Mom and his brother, his relatives, and his friends.

As always, all of the above is MOO except where referenced! :MOO:

 

[Redhead72]

Bender said the sonar boats make runs parallel to the dam and then perpendicular to the structure in order to leave no area unscrutinized. One sonar boat belongs to the New Mexico State Police, another is the personal boat of La Plata County Sheriff’s Deputy Jerry Little.


Sonar impulses home in on objects that don’t match the size or shape of what is normally found on the bottom of a body of water.


Divers have to be used judiciously, Bender said. The elevation of Vallecito, 7,700 feet, the 38 degree water and its depth, 40 feet, allow them to search safely for only 20 to 30 minutes.

http://www.durangoherald.com/article/20121126/NEWS01/121129702/0/rss/Frustration-mounting

The water temp is now around 48 degrees

http://www.fishingnotes.com/lakeinfo.php?id=3115

On Sunday, the sheriff's office asked for New Mexico State Police to search the bottom of the reservoir, Bender said.

New Mexico police have more divers and more sophisticated equipment than law enforcement agencies in southwest Colorado, he said.

New Mexico's dive team is comprised of state police officers from all across the state. It goes on about 30 to 40 recovery missions per year, including several at Navajo Lake, Pierce said.

The team searched the south end of the reservoir on Sunday and didn't find any clues about Dylan's whereabouts, Bender said.

On Monday, six members of the scuba-diving team boarded New Mexico State Police boats equipped with sonar and crisscrossed the lake, Bender said.

http://www.elpasotimes.com/newmexico/ci_22071476/colorado-boy-still-missing-after-two-day-underwater

This is the thing that bothers me though - how would the sonar react when the bottom is a forest of tree stumps and brush? Most lakes have a flat, mostly smooth bottom which would make a large object like a body, or backpack, or a fishing pole (less likely) to show up.

The divers couldn't go to the bottom, so even if something were found - how could they have checked it out then?

Like I said in my last comment - I think the ROV cameras would be better than sonar, but that is my opinion. I think to the best of their ability at the time the NM team searched the lake well, but the limitations of their search create too many possibilities that something may have been missed - in my opinion.

All of the above is MOO! :cow: