Identified! CO - Gunnison Nat’l Forest, 3 Decomposed Bodies, long term camping near Gold Creek Campground, July 2023 - Rebecca & Christine Vance & Boy, 14

[RedHaus]

Snipped. If there was an unopened packet of ramen there, it seems less likely that starvation was the cause of their deaths. IMO

Unless the package got lost and buried under snow.... That, or they were planning to go for more provisions the next day... but never got to make that trek to town.

... investigators saw no equipment for heavy winter conditions like snow boots or snow gear."

Further, this other bit from my post has really been troubling me since I read the article. I am starting to wonder if they died BEFORE winter snow set in.

The unfinished lean-to referenced in that same article also suggests to me they died earlier during their stay there, pre winter.

Perhaps they had planned on moving elsewhere for the winter but never got to that point. And during a late summer/ fall cold snap they improvised a source of overnight heat by burning tinder in their tent, and succumbed to CO poisoning.

We have established in this thread that CO poisoning among campers is not an uncommon occurrence.

So this theory makes more sense to me: perhaps they never planned on over-wintering at 9.5K/10K feet elevation. And they died accidentally before their intended shift to a hospitable location.

All IMO.

Article source reposted here: Family speaks on deaths of 3 Colorado Springs campers who died trying to go 'off the grid' | KRDO

 

[Cedars]

Snipped. If there was an unopened packet of ramen there, it seems less likely that starvation was the cause of their deaths. IMO

I don't know, but I imagine if I was capable of taking action to prevent starving to death, I wouldn't put it off until after I'd eaten my last 1/3 portion of a packet of ramen.

Going for help would require a lot of energy, even though it was downhill. Whoever went would probably need more food than that to complete the trip.

When people are starving, they can't walk, they can barely crawl.

JMO

 

[ch_13]

Unless the package got lost and buried under snow.... That, or they were planning to go for more provisions the next day... but never got to make that trek to town.


Further, this other bit from my post has really been troubling me since I read the article. I am starting to wonder if they died BEFORE winter snow set in.

The unfinished lean-to referenced in that same article also suggests to me they died earlier during their stay there, pre winter.

Perhaps they had planned on moving elsewhere for the winter but never got to that point. And during a late summer/ fall cold snap they improvised a source of overnight heat by burning tinder in their tent, and succumbed to CO poisoning.

We have established in this thread that CO poisoning among campers is not an uncommon occurrence.

So this theory makes more sense to me: perhaps they never planned on over-wintering at 9.5K/10K feet elevation. And they died accidentally before their intended shift to a hospitable location.

All IMO.

Article source reposted here: Family speaks on deaths of 3 Colorado Springs campers who died trying to go 'off the grid' | KRDO

In the Rockies, you have to be prepared for winter-like conditions year-round. Just this past June there was a blizzard at Pike's Peak which forced the visitor center to evacuate. And last September, a hiker died of exposure in Rocky Mountain National Park while trying to scale Longs Peak.

I have personally experienced out-of-season winter conditions while driving some of the mountain passes, especially in the shoulder months. At 8,000 feet it's a beautiful spring or autumn day with temps in the 60s, but then at 10,000 feet there's a snowstorm raging.

I just went and looked up the weather conditions last fall near where they were. There's a weather station at Taylor Park Reservoir, 10 miles north of the area where the campsite was located. The reservoir is at 9300 feet, about 500 feet below the campsite elevation.

In late October, it looks like there was a spate of bad weather...

Date	Max Temp	Min Temp	Snowfall
2022-10-23	47	25	3.0
2022-10-24	28	12	1.4
2022-10-25	36	11	T
2022-10-26	36	29	2.0
2022-10-27	37	24	0.8

No idea if this same storm hit them, but considering their altitude and location it's a distinct possibility. In fact by early September temps were dipping down below freezing at night, and that alone is cold enough to kill the unprepared.


edit --

And another interesting factoid from the Taylor Park weather data...average temps and snowfall totals by month:

Month	Avg Max Temp	Avg Min Temp	Snowfall Total
2022-10	52.6	25.0	7.2
2022-11	36.2	10.0	11.8
2023-01	24.1	-4.6	29.6
2023-02	29.5	-8.8	13.9
2023-03	31.8	-0.9	46.3
2023-04	43.1	11.7	5.7

 

[annpats]

Snipped. If there was an unopened packet of ramen there, it seems less likely that starvation was the cause of their deaths. IMO

Unless they were already too frail/weak to cook it, or were losing mental faculties with the severe cold.

 

[RedHaus]

In the Rockies, you have to be prepared for winter-like conditions year-round.

RSBM

Indeed. And thank you for the weather analysis.

So I could imagine the group, even in July or August at that altitude, trying to stay warm at night in their tent by burning tinder in a tin can. Given their lean-to wasn't complete when they died and they had no winter clothing or gear, I just lean towards the idea they had not planned on over wintering there and died from accidential CO poisoning early in their sojourn. If they arrived in July, as LE has considered, they may have perished in August or early September. IMO.

Alternatively they may have quickly weakened from malnourishment shortly after arriving in late summer because their provisions were inadequate, and a cascade of events led to their death - too weak to forage, too weak to finish their lean-to, too weak to leave for warmer climate, too weak to attain winter gear in town, too weak to think clearly leading to the decision to burn something in their tent. And either hypothermia or CO poisoning ultimately took their lives perhaps. IMO.

 

[Betty P]

RSBM

Indeed. And thank you for the weather analysis.

So I could imagine the group, even in July or August at that altitude, trying to stay warm at night in their tent by burning tinder in a tin can. Given their lean-to wasn't complete when they died and they had no winter clothing or gear, I just lean towards the idea they had not planned on over wintering there and died from accidential CO poisoning early in their sojourn. If they arrived in July, as LE has considered, they may have perished in August or early September. IMO.

Alternatively they may have quickly weakened from malnourishment shortly after arriving in late summer because their provisions were inadequate, and a cascade of events led to their death - too weak to forage, too weak to finish their lean-to, too weak to leave for warmer climate, too weak to attain winter gear in town, too weak to think clearly leading to the decision to burn something in their tent. And either hypothermia or CO poisoning ultimately took their lives perhaps. IMO.

They had no transportation or cell phone service, right? How sad they were really stranded with no way to get help if things turned bad.

 

[RedHaus]

They had no transportation or cell phone service, right? How sad they were really stranded with no way to get help if things turned bad.

Yeah, I'm a little fuzzy on the transportation question.

IiRC, LE has been mum on whether or not a vehicle was found near the campsite. Presuming there wasn't a vehicle, I am dumbfounded how they got to where they were. To have hitched / hiked 170 miles from Colorado Springs seems near impossible for them. And even if someone gave them a lift to Ohio City or Pitkin, were they really capable of hiking 6-11 miles up a mountain road (depending on their starting point), with all their supplies, including tin cans of food, a tent, tarp, and lots of books per LE?

So this is another element of the mystery I can't wrap my head around. How did they get there in the first place? And if they drove themselves there, why didn't they use their vehicle for shelter and transportation out in an emergency?

Maybe someday LE will shed more light.

ET fix typos

 

[Gophers_FTW]

RSBM

Indeed. And thank you for the weather analysis.

So I could imagine the group, even in July or August at that altitude, trying to stay warm at night in their tent by burning tinder in a tin can. Given their lean-to wasn't complete when they died and they had no winter clothing or gear, I just lean towards the idea they had not planned on over wintering there and died from accidential CO poisoning early in their sojourn. If they arrived in July, as LE has considered, they may have perished in August or early September. IMO.

Alternatively they may have quickly weakened from malnourishment shortly after arriving in late summer because their provisions were inadequate, and a cascade of events led to their death - too weak to forage, too weak to finish their lean-to, too weak to leave for warmer climate, too weak to attain winter gear in town, too weak to think clearly leading to the decision to burn something in their tent. And either hypothermia or CO poisoning ultimately took their lives perhaps. IMO.

I think the tin cans were not being used for warmth. They were most likely being used for either fire-starting purposes and/or were being used as a 'hobo stove' of sorts. They may have been trying to use just inside or just outside the tent (vestibule, etc.) due to precipitation, cold temperatures, and/or wind. Intending to boil water or start a larger fire eventually. Simply having a tent flap or screen open is not adequate ventilation for something like this. This may not have been obvious to them.

Note the name of the website below.

HOW TO MAKE A SIMPLE TIN CAN STOVE

How to Make a Simple Tin Can Stove

The hobo tin can stove is about as simple as it gets. All you need is a discarded coffee can and some kindling, and you'll be cooking hot meals in no time.

www.offgridweb.com

 

[MrsWatson]

I wonder if they paid someone to take them up there? Load up their stuff on ATVs or whatever to move it in. I agree with it being unlikely they hiked in under their own steam. From the pictures we've seen, they didn't look like they'd been physically training to do that type of hike, esp with lots of equipment. If they hired someone, that person could be hesitant to come forward now, thinking they may be blamed or charged with something. Could also be someone like-minded who wouldn't pay any attention to the news and has no idea of the outcome.

This case reminds me so much of Chris McCandless (Into the Wild). People who just want to be away from everyone, refuse offers of help, and are woefully unprepared.

It's very sad.

MOO

 

[Gophers_FTW]

Yeah, I'm a little fuzzy on the transportation question.

IiRC, LE has been mum on whether or not a vehicle was found near the campsite. Presuming there wasn't a vehicle, I am dumbfounded how they got to where they were. To have hitched / hiked 170 miles from Colorado Springs seems near impossible for them. And even if someone gave them a lift to Ohio City or Pitkin, were they really capable of hiking 6-11 miles up a mountain road (depending on their starting point), with all their supplies, including tin cans of food, a tent, tarp, and lots of books per LE?

So this is another element of the mystery I can't wrap my head around. How did they get there in the first place? And if they drove themselves there, why didn't they use their vehicle for shelter and transportation out in an emergency?

Maybe someday LE will shed more light.

ET fix typos

I think the most likely scenario is that they drove to this area originally.

One thing to consider is that there are rules against camping for extended periods of time in the same campsite in the national forest. It appears they intended on breaking that rule. A vehicle would give away their general location to rangers or other people.

So what might they have done? A few possibilities:

-they parked and concealed the vehicle nearby
-they sold or abandoned the vehicle to fully commit to the 'mission'
-it was towed from the area as things closed up last year
-it was stolen
-they got a ride from someone we don't know about yet

"Campsites can be occupied for no more than 14 days, then the site must be moved at least 3 miles away. Camping is also limited to a total of 28 days in a 60 day period."

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd576017.pdf

 

[IceIce9]

If they had been used to three square meals a day then suddenly switched to a diet of ramen noodles and other survivalist fare they could have lost weight rapidly.

 

[Betty P]

I think the tin cans were not being used for warmth. They were most likely being used for either fire-starting purposes and/or were being used as a 'hobo stove' of sorts. They may have been trying to use just inside or just outside the tent (vestibule, etc.) due to precipitation, cold temperatures, and/or wind. Intending to boil water or start a larger fire eventually. Simply having a tent flap or screen open is not adequate ventilation for something like this. This may not have been obvious to them.

Note the name of the website below.

HOW TO MAKE A SIMPLE TIN CAN STOVE

How to Make a Simple Tin Can Stove

The hobo tin can stove is about as simple as it gets. All you need is a discarded coffee can and some kindling, and you'll be cooking hot meals in no time.

www.offgridweb.com

We made those in Girl Scouts back in the mid 1960s, IIRC using a coffee can. Not effective at all for actual regular, long term use. I doubt it could even boil water. Flimsy, easily knocked over.

ETA: Yes, we called it a Buddy Burner". They still make them apparently, fun project but not useful IRL

How to Make a Buddy Burner and Vagabond Stove with Moira | Wondering what our Girl Scouts are doing at home? Teaching our Girl Scout council how to make AWESOME projects! Join Girl Scout Moira as she teaches you... | By Girl Scouts of the Desert Sout

Wondering what our Girl Scouts are doing at home? Teaching our Girl Scout council how to make AWESOME projects! Join Girl Scout Moira as she teaches you...

www.facebook.com

 

[Gophers_FTW]

I think the most likely scenario is that they drove to this area originally.

One thing to consider is that there are rules against camping for extended periods of time in the same campsite in the national forest. It appears they intended on breaking that rule. A vehicle would give away their general location to rangers or other people.

So what might they have done? A few possibilities:

-they parked and concealed the vehicle nearby
-they sold or abandoned the vehicle to fully commit to the 'mission'
-it was towed from the area as things closed up last year
-it was stolen
-they got a ride from someone we don't know about yet

"Campsites can be occupied for no more than 14 days, then the site must be moved at least 3 miles away. Camping is also limited to a total of 28 days in a 60 day period."

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd576017.pdf

"Christine and Rebecca Vance and the teenager traveled in a car to a parking space near a hiking trail and then most likely walked the rest of the way to their eventual camping spot, said Jara, who spoke with officials as part of their investigation."

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/family-died-rockies-trying-live-off-grid-18261784.php

 

[IceIce9]

"Christine and Rebecca Vance and the teenager traveled in a car to a parking space near a hiking trail and then most likely walked the rest of the way to their eventual camping spot, said Jara, who spoke with officials as part of their investigation."

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/family-died-rockies-trying-live-off-grid-18261784.php

I am surprised that no one noticed their car in the parking lot, since long-term camping was prohibited there.

Also wondering if other campers or backpackers would have noticed them.


From the article:

Sheriff Adam Murdie of Gunnison County said this month that it was not unusual for hikers and backpackers to set up camp near where the Vances had.

 

[IceIce9]

The distraught sister also says that she tried to convince Rebecca to leave her son in her care or at least with the care of his father’s mother, with whom Jara says he was very close with. Sadly, Christine refused all invitations for her son’s care and Jara says her sister had a “fear the world would be a bad influence” on the teenager.

Jara explained that the teen’s father is not on his birth certificate and legally could not challenge what Rebecca wanted to do, however, the young man and his father were involved in each other’s lives. Jara says the teen’s dad is “distraught” over the news of what happened to his boy.

Colorado Family Members Died Trying to Live 'Off the Grid'

Trevala Jara, Rebecca and Christine Vance's grieving stepsister spoke to Inside Edition Digital and said her siblings were not survivalists.

www.insideedition.com

 

[RedHaus]

And then we have these additional tidbits... strange how this information is coming out in dribs and drabs.

"Although the campsite was between 1,000 and 1,500 feet from the Gold Creek Campground and deep in the timber, heartbreakingly, the trio was only about a half-mile from a cabin, [Gunnison County Sheriff] Murdie said."

I tried to locate said campground but gave up after a minor searching effort... someone else may have more luck. This makes me wonder if they fully explored the area around their campsite early on, to evaluate the resources on hand.

"[Gunnison County Coroner] Barnes identified the three after informing the next of kin he could locate; he said he is still working to locate the boy’s father and paternal grandmother and declined to release the teen’s name."

But it looks like from the article that @IceIce9 posted ^^^ that the boy's father was not on the boy's BC, so had no recourse.

 

[RedHaus]

"Christine and Rebecca Vance and the teenager traveled in a car to a parking space near a hiking trail and then most likely walked the rest of the way to their eventual camping spot, said Jara, who spoke with officials as part of their investigation."
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/family-died-rockies-trying-live-off-grid-18261784.php

RBBM

I am surprised that no one noticed their car in the parking lot, since long-term camping was prohibited there.

RS&BBM

Well, IMO, "traveled in a car" may not necessarily mean it was parked in the parking space where it traveled to. A fourth person could have dropped them off. That said, I'm inclined to think they parked there. If that is true, then this tragedy makes less sense than it had --- they potentially had a quick exit option and shelter -- unless the vehicle ran out of fuel.

 

[otto]

Several new tidbits here in this 7/31/2023 story and video, from KRDO.

1. "Though [Gunnison County Coroner] Barnes is still waiting on toxicology reports to come in, he suspects the three died as a result of malnutrition, exposure to the elements, or carbon monoxide poisoning."

2. "Christine and Rebecca's stepsister Trevala Jara said... her sisters' choice wasn't motivated by religion or conspiracy theories. She said it was a combination of multiple factors including instability due to the COVID-19 pandemic and shifting politics... "...they wanted to protect each other, and that they really thought that they could do it..." said Jara."

3. "Christine and Rebecca... met up with a survivalist once to figure out how to live on their own, but Jara said they were completely unqualified to live out in the harsh conditions."

4. [Jara] said they weren't crazy, they just got in over their heads in a horrible situation.

5. "Barnes said the bodies were visibly and unnaturally thin, indicating the three possibly died from starvation."

6. "He also believes carbon monoxide poisoning could have contributed to their deaths. When Barnes was at the campground, he noticed evidence pointing to the three people boiling [burning?] tinder for a fire in empty soup cans.

7. "Inside the tent, investigators found empty food packaging and several books on foraging and how to plant vegetables, but investigators saw no equipment for heavy winter conditions like snow boots or snow gear."

It just sounds like they were wildly unprepared for a harsh winter at 10K feet in the Rocky Mountains.

I won't speculate about their mental health, intelligence, will to preserve self, or survival instincts, as its against WS TSO. But I will continue to consider that this tragedy was likely preventable, which makes it that much harder to understand.

IMO.

Still catching up with the discussion. I understand that one body was found 1000 feet from the other two bodies. Do we know which of the three was found first? That person seems like the last to die, the only one who tried to go for help. The circle represents 1000 feet from the campground.

Here's a map with elevations.

OpenTopoMap - Topographische Karten aus OpenStreetMap

direkt zur Karte...

opentopomap.org

Google map

 

[otto]

In terms of why they were hiding in the mountains, what was the reason?

I see that the boy's father is not identified on his birth certificate. According to comments upthread, the boy knew and had some sort of relationship with his father. Did hiding in the mountains have something to do with custody? Have authorities spoken with the father's family?

Was this related to a fear of covid, and a fear that sending the 14 year old to school was dangerous for his health?

We they reacting to their perspective of the political climate, and looking for an isolated safe place to survive?

 

[otto]

Two sisters in their 40s showing signs of malnutrition (or is it mummification) and a 14 year old. One of the 3 was found 1000 feet away from the other 2. I'm guessing that the 14 year old lived the longest. Even if one could leave after the other two died, that person was not dressed for the weather.

I'm curious how they got there. Was their car found, or did someone drop them off in the area?