Identified! CO - Gunnison Nat’l Forest, 3 Decomposed Bodies, long term camping near Gold Creek Campground, July 2023 - Rebecca & Christine Vance & Boy, 14

[otto]

"Christine and Rebecca Vance and the teenager traveled in a car to a parking space near a hiking trail and then most likely walked the rest of the way to their eventual camping spot, said Jara, who spoke with officials as part of their investigation."

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/family-died-rockies-trying-live-off-grid-18261784.php

Fear and looking for safety as a survivalist.

"She wanted to live in a land disconnected from the world, which she viewed as chaotic and dangerous.

She told her stepsister, Trevala Jara, that she could grow and gather her own food in a remote place, that she and her teenage son could be happy and safe away from the news, the viruses, the politics of modern-day America."​

Thank you for the link!

 

[RedHaus]

Still catching up with the discussion. I understand that one body was found 1000 feet from the other two bodies. Do we know which of the three was found first? That person seems like the last to die, the only one who tried to go for help. The circle represents 1000 feet from the campground.

Here's a map with elevations.

OpenTopoMap - Topographische Karten aus OpenStreetMap

direkt zur Karte...

opentopomap.org

Google map

Hey @otto! Nice to see you again!

From what LE has said, one body was just outside of the tent, the other two inside. The one outside was found by a camper. LE found the two inside the tent.

The 1000 feet reference by LE was that their actual campsite was 1000-1500 feet from the 6 campsite Gold Creek Campground at about 9500 feet elevation. Their campsite was in dense forest so that narrows the location options.

Could you use your mapping skills to find the Cabin that LE said was just a 1/2 mile from their campsite? I'm curious how easy it was to get to...

 

[otto]

Hey @otto! Nice to see you again!

From what LE has said, one body was just outside of the tent, the other two inside. The one outside was found by a camper. LE found the two inside the tent.

The 1000 feet reference by LE was that their actual campsite was 1000-1500 feet from the 6 campsite Gold Creek Campground at about 9500 feet elevation. Their campsite was in dense forest so that narrows the location options.

Could you use your mapping skills to find the Cabin that LE said was just a 1/2 mile from their campsite? I'm curious how easy it was to get to...

First we have to figure out their campsite, then we can look for the cabin, or I can look for the cabin and try to locate the campsite.

I need to increase the size of this map to read the elevations. I think we're looking for 2900 on the map ... does anyone have good enough eyes to see the elevations on this map? I'm curious about the area to the left of the campground. Old eyes, what can I say.

map

 

[airportwoman]

Okay, I haven't read the entire thread, but in addition to me being happy to see that they have been identified, didn't anyone else notice that this 14-year-old boy wasn't in school? Was he "home-schooled", whatever that may mean to you or to them?

 

[Shamrock1]

Okay, I haven't read the entire thread, but in addition to me being happy to see that they have been identified, didn't anyone else notice that this 14-year-old boy wasn't in school? Was he "home-schooled", whatever that may mean to you or to them?

Previously posted articles do describe him as homeschooled. There are homeschoolers - secular and religious - who live off-grid and provide an excellent education. And, of course, there are “homeschoolers” who use “homeschooling” as a cover for educational neglect…or worse. JMO.

Dead sisters, teen boy only used YouTube to prepare for ‘off grid’ life

Rebecca Vance persuaded her sister and 13-year-old son to move to the Colorado wilderness and live “off the grid” — but the three were found dead months later. Family say they weren&#82…

nypost.com

 

[otto]

Okay, I haven't read the entire thread, but in addition to me being happy to see that they have been identified, didn't anyone else notice that this 14-year-old boy wasn't in school? Was he "home-schooled", whatever that may mean to you or to them?

It sounds like the mother was home schooling as a covid option until Sept 2022, perhaps coinciding with the 14 year old being expected at school unless his mother filed a home-schooling application. Instead, she hid in the mountains, fearful of viruses and politics.

The 14 year old's maternal family knew that she had gone into the forest with a 14 year old child to forage like a survivalist. The 14 year old's aunt was only there to make sure everyone was safe. She was not a survivalist. She died, so it doesn't sound like she had a head-up to get everyone out of there safely in time. Something sudden and unexpected happened?

Almost seems like whatever happened did happen early in their plan, so they couldn't forage for food and they were burning in their lean-to while stepping 5 feet away to toilet.

When was the last time the family spoke with the sisters and the 14 year old? If it was May, then a snow storm in June might have been unexpected.

 

[Betty P]

It sounds like the mother was home schooling as a covid option until Sept 2022, perhaps coinciding with the 14 year old being expected at school unless his mother filed a home-schooling application. Instead, she hid in the mountains, fearful of viruses and politics.

The 14 year old's maternal family knew that she had gone into the forest with a 14 year old child to forage like a survivalist. The 14 year old's aunt was only there to make sure everyone was safe. She was not a survivalist. She died, so it doesn't sound like she had a head-up to get everyone out of there safely in time. Something sudden and unexpected happened?

Almost seems like whatever happened did happen early in their plan, so they couldn't forage for food and they were burning in their lean-to while stepping 5 feet away to toilet.

When was the last time the family spoke with the sisters and the 14 year old? If it was May, then a snow storm in June might have been unexpected.

Going back to a link in the previous page, the relative who offered to let them stay at her cabin last saw them in August 2022, when they left to go into the mountains. A poor choice, JMO to leave that late in the season, giving themselves little time to prepare for winter weather.

 

[RedHaus]

Almost seems like whatever happened did happen early in their plan

RSBM

I agree.

LE has reported the family was last seen by loved ones in July 2022. Given what little we know so far, IMO, they likely died of acute CO poisoning from burning tinder in a tin can inside their tent, and that could have occurred as early as Jul-Sept.

Since their lean-to was incomplete and they had no winter boots or apparel, per LE, and they may have had access to their parked car (that is not confirmed yet), it just seems something took their lives early on and without warning. I really doubt they'd planned to over winter there.

Hopefully we'll hear more from LE soon.

IMO

 

[Deleted member 306806]

Still catching up with the discussion. I understand that one body was found 1000 feet from the other two bodies. Do we know which of the three was found first? That person seems like the last to die, the only one who tried to go for help. The circle represents 1000 feet from the campground.

Here's a map with elevations.

OpenTopoMap - Topographische Karten aus OpenStreetMap

direkt zur Karte...

opentopomap.org

Google map

Could have been the first to die if that person set out for help, were injured or collapsed, and the others were waiting in the tent for help tp arrive. 1000 feet is about 3 football fields.

 

[RedHaus]

For newcomers, I'd like to clarify some points that understandably are a bit hard to tease out from LE statements.

1. The body outside of the tent was in their camp (not 1000 feet away) - see #3 & #4 as well.

Good old DM... the title conflicts with the body of the article. In the article you cited I read this: "Two of the bodies were inside a small, zipped-up tent and the other was outside in the camp, which was in a remote wooded area where hikers typically wouldn't pass by, Gunnison County Sheriff Adam Murdie told the Associated Press."

2. LE has consistently reported they believe the three started their off grid sojourn mid to late July. However, they could of course be incorrect if a family member is also reporting she saw them in early August. So, which is true?

An article from the Denver Gazette that provides a bit more information...

"Gunnison County Undersheriff Josh Ashe described the campsite where the bodies were found as particularly developed... could have been being used for long-term off-grid living..."

"...According to [Gunnison County Coroner] Barnes, it appears as if the three had started a stint of camping in mid-to-late July of 2022. Evidence at the site suggested that the campers had plans to live at the spot permanently..."

3. The body outside the tent was on the ground in front of the tent
4. Their campsite was between 1,000 and 1,500 feet from the Gold Creek Campground

Note: @ch_13 and I made attempts at narrowing down where their location could have been (see our posts ^^^^)

And some more nuggets of information here from the Colorado Sun.

• ..."The hiker found one body... about 1,000 feet from a campsite near the Gold Creek Campground...
• ...[Gunnison County Sheriff Adam] Murdie described the site as ...not visible from the dirt county Forest Service road
• ... bodies were discovered in a dark patch of timber...
• ... bodies were impossible to identify, Murdie said, estimating they may have been at the campsite since the fall...
• ...Investigators found a blue tent, empty food cans and a lean-to shelter at the campsite, Murdie said...
• ...hiker saw the camp... before seeing one of the bodies on the ground in front of the tent, Murdie said."

And then we have these additional tidbits... strange how this information is coming out in dribs and drabs.

"Although the campsite was between 1,000 and 1,500 feet from the Gold Creek Campground and deep in the timber, heartbreakingly, the trio was only about a half-mile from a cabin, [Gunnison County Sheriff] Murdie said."

 

[DrQ]

IMHO What a strange set of circumstances. Sad outcome. When facts are being gathered, things often sound weird and confusing. Color me confused.

 

[Gophers_FTW]

For newcomers, I'd like to clarify some points that understandably are a bit hard to tease out from LE statements.

1. The body outside of the tent was in their camp (not 1000 feet away) - see #3 & #4 as well.


2. LE has consistently reported they believe the three started their off grid sojourn mid to late July. However, they could of course be incorrect if a family member is also reporting she saw them in early August. So, which is true?


3. The body outside the tent was on the ground in front of the tent
4. Their campsite was between 1,000 and 1,500 feet from the Gold Creek Campground

Note: @ch_13 and I made attempts at narrowing down where their location could have been (see our posts ^^^^)

I've marked the general area where I think they most likely set up their camp (red circle), based on review of topographic map, descriptions from the articles, and basic strategy for choosing a campsite. They would've likely chosen a location relatively close to the creek in the flatter valley area. They chose a thick patch of trees somewhere in this general area that prevented them from being visible from the forest service road(s), possibly close to the hillside. What looks to be a cabin (blue square) and another building can be seen to the south - just off the main road, at the end of a short curvy driveway/jeep road.

 

[RedHaus]

I've marked the general area where I think they most likely set up their camp (red circle), based on review of topographic map, descriptions from the articles, and basic strategy for choosing a campsite. They would've likely chosen a location relatively close to the creek in the flatter valley area. They chose a thick patch of trees somewhere in this general area that prevented them from being visible from the forest service road(s), possibly close to the hillside. What looks to be a cabin (blue square) and another building can be seen to the south - just off the main road, at the end of a short curvy driveway/jeep road.

Bravo, @Gophers_FTW! That's also where I suggested they had set up camp in my post ^^^ (image below). So I agree.

But you also found what could be the cabin that LE referenced was 1/2 mile from their campsite. Just down the creek.

It's really hard to comprehend their demise... given they may have had a variety of escape hatches in a perfect world.

Hopefully we'll get some missing pieces to this puzzle from LE.

 

[ch_13]

Bravo, @Gophers_FTW! That's also where I suggested they had set up camp in my post ^^^ (image below). So I agree.

But you also found what could be the cabin that LE referenced was 1/2 mile from their campsite. Just down the creek.

It's really hard to comprehend their demise... given they may have had a variety of escape hatches in a perfect world.

Hopefully we'll get some missing pieces to this puzzle from LE.

View attachment 439456

Yep, I think you had the location nailed back on July 15th.

I had thought they would be farther away from the road & trails if they intended to remain undetected for the long-term, but now knowing exactly how inexperienced they were, they probably felt they were plenty hidden.

 

[Cedars]

It's really hard to comprehend their demise... given they may have had a variety of escape hatches in a perfect world.

Hopefully we'll get some missing pieces to this puzzle from LE.

Unless one of them left a journal, I'm not sure LE can provide further answers. I think their mental states would be key to understanding what happened.

For eg, it's known from his diary that Chris McClandless in Alaska tried to walk out, but was blocked by the creek temporarily running too high to cross. Then, his biographer believes, he became very sick from eating seeds of a local plant, but not everyone agrees about that.

Geraldine Largay, who became lost on the Appalachian Trail, also wrote a journal while she lay in her tent, waiting to die. She seems to have given up hope after a few days of wandering around trying to get a cell signal/ sending up smoke. She was known to be very poor at orienting herself in the landscape, and would have felt very anxious at being alone. Another person might have more systematically explored around her campsite, and found a nearby track leading out.

I believe much depends on mindset, it will determine what a person does or doesn't try to do.

JMO

 

[Jinkasaurus]

In one of the articles posted above, the police mention that the family was going to the bathroom very close to their campsite. They said that this could have been a sign of the weather being very cold outside, as most people would go further away from camp if possible.

 

[PawneeDew]

Several new tidbits here in this 7/31/2023 story and video, from KRDO.

1. "Though [Gunnison County Coroner] Barnes is still waiting on toxicology reports to come in, he suspects the three died as a result of malnutrition, exposure to the elements, or carbon monoxide poisoning."

2. "Christine and Rebecca's stepsister Trevala Jara said... her sisters' choice wasn't motivated by religion or conspiracy theories. She said it was a combination of multiple factors including instability due to the COVID-19 pandemic and shifting politics... "...they wanted to protect each other, and that they really thought that they could do it..." said Jara."

3. "Christine and Rebecca... met up with a survivalist once to figure out how to live on their own, but Jara said they were completely unqualified to live out in the harsh conditions."

4. [Jara] said they weren't crazy, they just got in over their heads in a horrible situation.

5. "Barnes said the bodies were visibly and unnaturally thin, indicating the three possibly died from starvation."

6. "He also believes carbon monoxide poisoning could have contributed to their deaths. When Barnes was at the campground, he noticed evidence pointing to the three people boiling [burning?] tinder for a fire in empty soup cans.

7. "Inside the tent, investigators found empty food packaging and several books on foraging and how to plant vegetables, but investigators saw no equipment for heavy winter conditions like snow boots or snow gear."

It just sounds like they were wildly unprepared for a harsh winter at 10K feet in the Rocky Mountains.

I won't speculate about their mental health, intelligence, will to preserve self, or survival instincts, as its against WS TSO. But I will continue to consider that this tragedy was likely preventable, which makes it that much harder to understand.

IMO.

Could one or both sisters lost their home? Homelessness is a big problem in the Springs....

 

[deadfoot13]

I was thinking that too. Too weak, plus too cold and snowy to want to try to make the trip unequipped and alone.

Also, did LE find cash?

It is tragic to be born to an unfit mother. I know family loyalty runs deep, but a quiet call to police to come remove the boy before they left would actually have been in order. But, again, family don't do that to each other, and a mother is considered to be the owner of her child, who else would take care of him?

In most of the world, people live in extended families, not all these isolated individuals quietly going insane.

JMO

BBM

For going camping? No judge is going to approve placement of a child in foster care because the family is going to live in a tent for a while.

I work for CPS in NY and we have numerous families living in tents at the local campground right this very minute (and we are paying the campground rental!); we've also had families living in converted school buses and off-grid structures with no utilities. I can't even estimate the number of children living with one or more parent diagnosed with a mental illness, and there are just as many who have a parent with a substance abuse issue. All of those things may not seem ideal to the general public, but as long as the child isn't in imminent danger and their needs are being met, no one's removing those kids.

Yes, I realize that in this case things had a sad ending and people are mad at the parent for putting the child in that situation, but authorities can't see into the future and I do not believe there would have been any CPS intervention if the stepsister had called when they were leaving town, not unless the mother was exhibiting obvious behaviors that were dangerous or indicative of a high risk of danger.

MOO.

 

[Friday Fan]

This case reminds me of the Jamison family. Although many believe foul play in the Jamison case, many others think they simply died from exposure. They were at a day trip to Panola Mountain in Oklahoma to look at property and may have gotten lost.
_________________
In this case, it sounds like the mom had some coping issues. If they didn't have adequate provisions, I can easily see how they would perish.

 

[Gophers_FTW]

Yep, I think you had the location nailed back on July 15th.

I had thought they would be farther away from the road & trails if they intended to remain undetected for the long-term, but now knowing exactly how inexperienced they were, they probably felt they were plenty hidden.

I think the campsite they selected was well-chosen if their goal was to not be seen by others or have visitors. Based on my past mountain experiences, it isn't surprising that it took so long for them to be discovered. They chose a location that was just outside the Fossil Ridge Wilderness. I've gone backpacking many times in designated wilderness areas like this one. Because of it's location, the Gold Creek Campground would be used mostly by backpackers and hikers who were coming into or out of the Fossil Ridge Wilderness. There are several trailheads into the wilderness found just north and northwest of the Gold Creek Campground. There would be parking areas nearby for multi-day backpackers to park their vehicles.

The deceased apparently chose a campsite in the opposite direction of the trailheads in a well-hidden location that would've gotten very little, if any, foot traffic from campground visitors. Anyone heading in their direction from the Gold Creek Campground would've likely been doing so to collect water from the creek, and would not have continued past it. They were in a place where they could feel and act like they were truly living alone in the wild, while not actually being too far from roads back to civilization in case things went bad. A good training area for being off-grid IMO. Unfortunately, things did end up going terribly wrong. I also think it is likely that they didn't intend to stay at this location through the winter, and something took place unexpectedly before winter fully hit.