CO - Jessica Ridgeway, 10, Westminster, 5 Oct. 2012 - #23

[mck16]

I'm going to go back to my thoughts about PDD as a part of the problem - possibly because it's something I'm more familiar with than the psychopathic personality!

I know that my son (who has Asperger's) has a real fear of being angry with me. In his mind, anger is more or less permanent and it's hard for him to accept that someone can love someone and be angry at them at the same time. Because of that, he'll find hundreds of things to blame his anger/irritation/frustration on when I say or do something that bothers him. He's almost 30, lives alone (about 6 blocks from me) and is fairly independent, but he still depends on me for a lot. I handle his money/pay his bills, make his appointments when needed, let him call any time he's bored or lonely, and a lot of little things. I think that in his mind, he believes that if he shows anger toward me that I'll stop having anything to do with him, and he's afraid of what would happen then.

I wonder if AS is like that with his mother too. If he was close to her BF that was with them, it may have upset him when she broke it off with him - I believe I read that it happened in May. If he was feeling anger toward her for it, he may have looked for someone else to transfer the anger to. If he also idolizes his brother (like my son does his), he would not be an acceptable scapegoat. I can see him going after the jogger to act out some of his anger, and getting even more depressed/angry when he failed. I've been trying to find when it was that he and his girlfriend most recently broke up too. If it was within the past few months, it may have been another catalyst for what he did to Jessica.

The only girlfriend I have heard mentioned was 8th grade. And I think it was only a couple of dates. But, I may be wrong anyone know of any later girls in his life? tia

 

[Confusion]

The only girlfriend I have heard mentioned was 8th grade. And I think it was only a couple of dates. But, I may be wrong anyone know of any later girls in his life? tia

That could be what I was thinking about. All of these news articles sometimes start running together and I think I may get bits and pieces of different cases mixed together. I remember that they were boyfriend/girlfriend twice, but it might have been in elementary school and again in 8th grade. I'll keep looking. Thanks for trying to keep me honest! :waitasec:

ETA: Found part of what I wanted....

After the Oct. 23, 2012 arrest of Austin Sigg for the murder of Colo. girl Jessica Ridgeway, information began surfacing about the teen from people who have been acquainted with him. An ex-girlfriend spoke out about Sigg on Wednesday, calling him “sweet” and “kind.”

A female only identified as Danni by 9 News, told the local media outlet that the boy she knew and dated both in 8th grade and again in high school, could not have harmed anyone.

“The Austin I knew would never have done anything like that… He was my first boyfriend. He was my first kiss. He was my first date,” she said.

http://www.examiner.com/article/austin-sigg-suspect-jessica-ridgeway-murder-called-sweet-by-ex-girlfriend
It doesn't say when they broke up, but it doesn't sound very recent. It does say, though, that they dated in high school.

 

[tlcya]

I am not locked into veiwing AS as a sociopath, so I appreciate your thoughts on this. Some markers of sociopathy seem to fit wiith him some do not. Perhaps your evaluation is closer. Keeping an open mind.

One thing I have noticed. Most of the peers/ clasmates who describe him as charismatic seem to have been females IIRC. People who knew him when younger all described him as normal, likeable, and expressed shock over his arrest. Those who knew him more recently describe him as odd, creepy, morbid. I wonder if when he reached an age when his male peers were developing deeper voices and his remained higher pitched, if thats when things changed. I suspect up til then he was accepted easily by both male and females in his peer group. After that is when I think he began spending time with kids, usually females, that were several years younger than himself.

ALL OF THE ABOVE IS COMPLETE SPECULATION.

 

[SapphireSteel]

You know that a lot of "problematic" voices can be fixed nowdays.

I knew a girl who could not shout or raise her voice, she had something wrong with her vocal cords and they could not fix her because she lacked the necessary raw material, but other conditions such as ARS are a matter of a simple snip by a good surgeon.

I wonder if this was ever explored?

:cow:

ETA: link for voice surgery
http://www.nyogmd.com/2011/06/im-a-...igh-pitched-voice-is-there-anything-i-can-do/

 

[Confusion]

I am not locked into veiwing AS as a sociopath, so I appreciate your thoughts on this. Some markers of sociopathy seem to fit wiith him some do not. Perhaps your evaluation is closer. Keeping an open mind.

One thing I have noticed. Most of the peers/ clasmates who describe him as charismatic seem to have been females IIRC. People who knew him when younger all described him as normal, likeable, and expressed shock over his arrest. Those who knew him more recently describe him as odd, creepy, morbid. I wonder if when he reached an age when his male peers were developing deeper voices and his remained higher pitched, if thats when things changed. I suspect up til then he was accepted easily by both male and females in his peer group. After that is when I think he began spending time with kids, usually females, that were several years younger than himself.

ALL OF THE ABOVE IS COMPLETE SPECULATION.

Some things that might affect these things. My son was well-liked in school, until he eventually got to the point where he saw himself differently than he did other boys his age. That made him so self-conscious/anxious that he did start acting "weird" around most people. He never knew if what he was saying was appropriate, so he got to where he was afraid to say anything. He normally wouldn't even look toward other people, but sometimes when he felt like nobody was paying attention, he'd just stare. I think part of the reason was that he was trying to figure out just how he was supposed to act.

The friends he has now have been in his life since 1st or 2nd grade, and he says they're friends because he can say anything around them, and they'll just turn around and say something just as dumb. I don't believe he's ever asked a girl out, other than someone he's been involved with for a long time. At the same time, he's almost never been without a girlfriend since he was in high school.

I think you're right about puberty affecting his friendships. Sorry to keep bringing him up, but...my son did end up losing his best friend when they got into 8th-9th grade. They didn't argue or anything, they just drifted apart because they had different likes, hobbies, etc. The friend started dating, but my son was still stuck in the past, wanting to do what he'd always done. Change has always been very hard for him, but he did eventually grow up some, just years later than most boys the same age. The friends he has are a few years younger than him, which was okay when he was really young and as an adult, but people thought it was strange in his teens. There are only about 4-5 people he actually thinks of as friends, and at least 2 of them were younger brothers to boys his age.

 

[TnVolsFan]

Some things that might affect these things. My son was well-liked in school, until he eventually got to the point where he saw himself differently than he did other boys his age. That made him so self-conscious/anxious that he did start acting "weird" around most people. He never knew if what he was saying was appropriate, so he got to where he was afraid to say anything. He normally wouldn't even look toward other people, but sometimes when he felt like nobody was paying attention, he'd just stare. I think part of the reason was that he was trying to figure out just how he was supposed to act.

The friends he has now have been in his life since 1st or 2nd grade, and he says they're friends because he can say anything around them, and they'll just turn around and say something just as dumb. I don't believe he's ever asked a girl out, other than someone he's been involved with for a long time. At the same time, he's almost never been without a girlfriend since he was in high school.

I think you're right about puberty affecting his friendships. Sorry to keep bringing him up, but...my son did end up losing his best friend when they got into 8th-9th grade. They didn't argue or anything, they just drifted apart because they had different likes, hobbies, etc. The friend started dating, but my son was still stuck in the past, wanting to do what he'd always done. Change has always been very hard for him, but he did eventually grow up some, just years later than most boys the same age. The friends he has are a few years younger than him, which was okay when he was really young and as an adult, but people thought it was strange in his teens. There are only about 4-5 people he actually thinks of as friends, and at least 2 of them were younger brothers to boys his age.

I've silently wondered too if AS was on the spectrum the look in his eyes in some of his posted pics- especially of the one w/him and a young girl- like he's not sure what he's supposed to be doing. I've been around several children who were on the Spectrum (PPD, ASD, Aspergers) and they do have such a hard time knowing how to act-- the thought of him 'staring' at people made me think of this. Sometimes ASDers will stare either bc they're in their own 'place' thinking, or they're trying to figure out simple nuances that someone who is NT (neuro-typical) might not have trouble understanding--

It's just my opinion and YES I think the young man is certainly mentally ill, but I've often wondered if it was compounded by something along the lines of Aspergers or Autism. Some of the most brilliant minds I know are 'different socially' and deemed 'weird' by their peers-- granted none of them have kidnapped a child, strangled them and then dismembered them... obviously something snapped.

:moo::moo::moo::moo: I don't have nearly as much experience w/sociopaths as I do ASDers... so I might be reading more into what I have seen and read to 'fit' what I know... who knows.

 

[Confusion]

<SNIP>
:moo::moo::moo::moo: I don't have nearly as much experience w/sociopaths as I do ASDers... so I might be reading more into what I have seen and read to 'fit' what I know... who knows.

As the saying goes: When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail!
But I do see a lot of signs of it in him.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I think it will take a team of psychiatrists to figure out what exactly is broken in this kid and if a "label" applies, or if he's in a team of his own...a freak, essentially.

I'm betting he was just born that way.

:banghead:

 

[nikb]

Some things that might affect these things. My son was well-liked in school, until he eventually got to the point where he saw himself differently than he did other boys his age. That made him so self-conscious/anxious that he did start acting "weird" around most people. He never knew if what he was saying was appropriate, so he got to where he was afraid to say anything. He normally wouldn't even look toward other people, but sometimes when he felt like nobody was paying attention, he'd just stare. I think part of the reason was that he was trying to figure out just how he was supposed to act.

The friends he has now have been in his life since 1st or 2nd grade, and he says they're friends because he can say anything around them, and they'll just turn around and say something just as dumb. I don't believe he's ever asked a girl out, other than someone he's been involved with for a long time. At the same time, he's almost never been without a girlfriend since he was in high school.

I think you're right about puberty affecting his friendships. Sorry to keep bringing him up, but...my son did end up losing his best friend when they got into 8th-9th grade. They didn't argue or anything, they just drifted apart because they had different likes, hobbies, etc. The friend started dating, but my son was still stuck in the past, wanting to do what he'd always done. Change has always been very hard for him, but he did eventually grow up some, just years later than most boys the same age. The friends he has are a few years younger than him, which was okay when he was really young and as an adult, but people thought it was strange in his teens. There are only about 4-5 people he actually thinks of as friends, and at least 2 of them were younger brothers to boys his age.

JMO but wow... like you I'm trying not to get too side-tracked, but I can't even believe how much this sounds like the autistic child I worked with - forgot to mention earlier, as a behavior therapist. AND also can't believe how much it sounds like AS. I don't know if it's a gender thing, but the girl I worked with was almost the opposite of your son, obsessed with growing up. As she neared very early puberty she wanted to "be a Mommy" - around age 9 or so she started to throw herself at boys, somehow she knew that boys were a key to the "becoming a Mommy" thing but I don't think she understood the details. She didn't care much about friends but tried to so she could seem "normal" and did have a few very close and loyal friends, mostly from when she was quite young. She was always afraid of seeming "not normal" and would apologize over and over if she did something "not normal" even if no one said anything to her about it.

I saw her again about 5 years after they moved away, and she was doing GREAT, but it was also kind of weird because she "preferred" being autistic. She could switch back and forth. She'd be as "normal" as possible, make eye contact, talk and ask questions, but sometimes just stare, if she didn't know what to say. Then she'd very politely ask, "Can I please be autistic now?"

Again personal experience, no links in part due to privacy. If someone wants more info this is a very interesting site re: autism though, from a woman who lives with it: http://www.templegrandin.com/.

Related to AS I don't know him of course so I have no idea if this is part of his history but IMO it makes sense as a possibility. All along I've felt like he could rapidly switch personalities and also become very detached very quickly, but couldn't quite figure out when or why. I still can't, but I wonder if there are/were off the wall triggers that made him do things that most of us can't understand.

Just to be clear, if this is the case it doesn't make his actions any less horrific! It just helps me understand a tiny bit of where his mind might've been. I still think he needs to be off the streets PERMANENTLY. MOO.

 

[GrainneDhu]

The divorce was finalized in 2001, when Austin would have been 6 years old. Divorce that includes property and children often takes 2 years to complete, so I would guess that the divorce proceedings began 1999, when Austin was 4 years old. There were restraining orders based on domestic violence in 2001 and 2003, so I think it's highly unlikely that Austin's father was using the attached garage for working on his gokarts.

I don't think a marriage can be any more "unfriendly" than domestic violence and restraining orders:

"Parker police arrested him for domestic violence and driving under the influence of drugs. We have also confirmed, Robert Sigg and Austin’s mother, Mindy Sigg divorced in 2001. Robert Sigg’s common law wife filed restraining orders against him in 2001 and 2003 for domestic violence."

http://kdvr.com/2012/10/24/ridgeway-murder-suspect-austin-siggs-father-no-stranger-to-police/

Is Mindy Sigg the same woman as his common law wife?

The requirements for common law marriage in Colorado:

Colorado: A common-law marriage may be established by proving cohabitation and a reputation of being married.

http://www.unmarried.org/common-law-marriage-fact-sheet.html

Given the evidence and assumptions you set forth, I'm guessing that there were two different women involved: Mindy Sigg and another (unnamed) woman.

 

[Annie1004]

Is Mindy Sigg the same woman as his common law wife?

The requirements for common law marriage in Colorado:



http://www.unmarried.org/common-law-marriage-fact-sheet.html

Given the evidence and assumptions you set forth, I'm guessing that there were two different women involved: Mindy Sigg and another (unnamed) woman.

Correct - from what I have read, the father is still with the "common law" spouse, while MS was married to him prior to this relationship.

 

[DylansMom34]

It looks like there may have been some sort of hearing today at 11:00 a.m. (assuming I have remembered the case number correctly 2012CR2899). I've missed pages of this thread but does anyone know what this hearing was?

http://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Docket.cfm

You have to type in the county and whatever other identifying info.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I doubt that many people will agree with me, but I really don't see AS as a sociopath - a very sick minded person, but not a sociopath. There are a few things that just don't fit that label for me. For one thing, he doesn't seem to be all that charismatic, which is a common characteristic of one.

People have said he was intelligent, and friends thought he was charismatic, but it seems like most people described him as strange, quiet, weird, etc.

I don't believe he and his brother would be as close if he was truly a sociopath. It seems like little brothers and sisters are almost as commonly abused as pets by people with no conscience, but his brother seems to genuinely care about him and doesn't seem to have accepted it readily.

He doesn't seem to be much good at lying. I don't see a true sociopath confessing to his mother to start out, and immediately admitting to the murder and other things once questioned. Being a believable liar is a big trait of sociopaths, but it seems like almost nobody has believed much of anything he's said (other than that he's guilty!)

To me, he seems more like someone who is fairly high on the Autism spectrum, but has other severe issues along with it. The signs I see are: not knowing proper social cues, becoming obsessed with subjects of interest, appearing "odd" to people who don't know him well (and to some who do), not spending time doing age appropriate activities, spending time with younger kids (especially girls, because he seems to have more in common with them), the stare is fairly common in someone who is trying to force him/herself to look people in the eye, sometimes a vacant stare can actually aim at another person and feel uncomfortable.

My guess is that he has some form of PDD, along with anxiety, depression and/or some other mood disorder, OCD, and probably some form of psychosis. I believe he knew what he did was wrong, but I'm not sure how much he cared, I really wouldn't be surprised at all if he were to plead guilty. I'd like to say that I feel sorry for him, but any chance of that flew out the window the moment his fantasies became reality.

I think you are probably correct about the psychopathy (which he is still too young to be diagnosed with anyway). I think it was Pensfan who said that he may have schizophrenia and I believe that is definitely a possibility.

I don't think he was some sort of criminal genius and I don't think he was taunting LE. It looks to me like much of what he did after he had abducted and killed Jessica was motivated by fear rather than arrogance.

I expect both the state and his lawyers will give him psychiatric evaluations and the results will be entered at court (even if he pleads guilty, the results of a psychiatric evaluation may be presented during the penalty phase).

 

[enzeder]

It looks like there may have been some sort of hearing today at 11:00 a.m. (assuming I have remembered the case number correctly 2012CR2899). I've missed pages of this thread but does anyone know what this hearing was?

http://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Docket.cfm

You have to type in the county and whatever other identifying info.

Yes, that's the correct Case No. I entered /2CR2899, which is the case number given in the original doc., and it brought up Case # 2012CR2899 in the Docket search.

 

[GrainneDhu]

That could be what I was thinking about. All of these news articles sometimes start running together and I think I may get bits and pieces of different cases mixed together. I remember that they were boyfriend/girlfriend twice, but it might have been in elementary school and again in 8th grade. I'll keep looking. Thanks for trying to keep me honest! :waitasec:

ETA: Found part of what I wanted....
http://www.examiner.com/article/austin-sigg-suspect-jessica-ridgeway-murder-called-sweet-by-ex-girlfriend
It doesn't say when they broke up, but it doesn't sound very recent. It does say, though, that they dated in high school.

Something to keep in mind is that if he has PDD, he may not have the same grasp on interactions and relationships that most teens his age have. He may have thought he was having an ongoing relationship with the girl he dated once or twice without realising that she really didn't feel that way about him.

My niece has Asperger's and one of the many things she finds difficult is the whole give and take of human interactions thing. When she was 15, there was an incident where she thought she was having a relationship with a boy in one of her classes because he was nice to her (this is the girl whose definition of friend is "someone who doesn't say mean things to you"). His parents finally intervened because my niece was engaged in stalker-ish behaviour and the boy just didn't know how to handle it. My niece is not dangerous in any way but she just did not pick up that he was not interested in her. And being a very nice boy, he was unwilling to simply say to her "leave me alone, I don't want to have a relationship with you." He didn't realise that to her, that's not a cruel thing to say, it's actually a relief to deal with clear direction.

It would be interesting to hear what Sigg's take on the relationship is compared to the girl. I don't think she was lying or anything like that, I just suspect that he may not have seen it the way a normal 17 year old would.

 

[tlcya]

OT another missing child case, this time an elementary schol student in Draper UT

Praying it resolves better than this one. Child last seen at 930 this a.m.

 

[Eireannach]

It looks like there may have been some sort of hearing today at 11:00 a.m. (assuming I have remembered the case number correctly 2012CR2899). I've missed pages of this thread but does anyone know what this hearing was?

http://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Docket.cfm

You have to type in the county and whatever other identifying info.

Maybe the reverse transfer request hearing? I haven't seen anything on the local news websites mentioning it.

 

[mck16]

Yes, that's the correct Case No. I entered /2CR2899, which is the case number given in the original doc., and it brought up Case # 2012CR2899 in the Docket search.

What is the county? tia

 

[GrainneDhu]

Some things that might affect these things. My son was well-liked in school, until he eventually got to the point where he saw himself differently than he did other boys his age. That made him so self-conscious/anxious that he did start acting "weird" around most people. He never knew if what he was saying was appropriate, so he got to where he was afraid to say anything. He normally wouldn't even look toward other people, but sometimes when he felt like nobody was paying attention, he'd just stare. I think part of the reason was that he was trying to figure out just how he was supposed to act.

SBM

Again, wow, you're also describing my niece who has Asperger's.

She has problems with eye contact and tends to veer from completely avoiding eye contact to overdoing it. In both cases, it's because she has absolutely no grasp on what normal eye contact consists of, even though she tries really hard to do it.

So there are times when her eye contact has been considered creepy because it is not appropriate in the context but since she doesn't understand that... well, it's a vicious circle.

I want to emphasise, though, that I am absolutely convinced my niece would never hurt anyone deliberately (she cries over swatting a fly!). When she does things that are inappropriate, it's because she honestly does not understand the appropriate behaviour in that situation. Believe me, if she understood, she would do it.

 

[enzeder]

What is the county? tia

Jefferson County.