CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #17 *ARREST*

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  • #141
I can't get it though my thick head how PF could take KB's phone and ping it in Idaho (or have someone do it)... and not take her suitcase, some clothes, and personal belongings. PF may not be very bright, but he doesn't take me as stupid.

Missing phone, purse, and travel items would be a solid story with minimal effort, not to convince me, but a jury by using a good lawyer- there is no body and there is evidence she left on her own to head north to see family. "I'll take care of the baby until she decides to return."

As detective Sipowicz once said on NYPD Blue, "I went in wid a plan, I came out, I got nuttin'."

The 1st degree murder and solicitation charge indicate evidence of planning a murder.

I don't think it went as planned, either time wise or pulling it off. And this is good, as far as leaving bread crumbs.

Maybe someone else was supposed to help move one of her vehicles but backed out at the last minute? It's hard to move a car very far on your own. No matter where he took it he would need a way to get back. I've seen in other cases where the perp took a bike with them or jogged away from an abandoned car-- but they could only move it a few miles away. And they got caught--either somone saw them or they were caught on camera or they got a ride from someone and that person came forward to police. It's risky to move the victim's car. JMO.
 
  • #142
I can't get it though my thick head how PF could take KB's phone and ping it in Idaho (or have someone do it)... and not take her suitcase, some clothes, and personal belongings. PF may not be very bright, but he doesn't take me as stupid.

Missing phone, purse, and travel items would be a solid story with minimal effort, not to convince me, but a jury by using a good lawyer- there is no body and there is evidence she left on her own to head north to see family. "I'll take care of the baby until she decides to return."

As detective Sipowicz once said on NYPD Blue, "I went in wid a plan, I came out, I got nuttin'."

The 1st degree murder and solicitation charge indicate evidence of planning a murder.

I don't think it went as planned, either time wise or pulling it off. And this is good, as far as leaving bread crumbs.
IKR?
Like I posted several threads ago, if you want to make it look like she went on a trip, pack her suitcase with all the essentials. And get rid of the cinnamon rolls. Take her car and push it off a cliff with the suitcase, purse, and phone inside. Then report her missing right away. If you want to make it look like she was abducted, take her running clothes, phone, and keys, and leave the purse in the house. Again, report her missing ASAP. But don't expect that local LE, not to mention the CBI and FBI is going to buy "she went to visit her grandmother" with no preparation and particularly not with two vehicles left at the house.
 
  • #143
Hello, Seattle. I believe the Judge has now denied the "gag order" request and links are posted a little ways back in the prior thread.

Haaaa. The headline read: “Judge Denies Gag Order...”

EDITOR'S NOTE: This story has been corrected to reflect that a judge has yet to rule on a request to limit pretrial statements in the Frazee case.

What the hell?! :eek:

The media better get their you know what together.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/gazett...db1786c2-0894-11e9-b128-eb7367cf87b1.amp.html
 
  • #144
not sure if I can post this so if I can't someone let me know and i'll delete if not but

I have been monitoring someones social media (a connection he has in Twin Lakes) and this morning it went bye bye. they kept their instagram but took off the profile picture (was already private). hmmmmm

Can you tell me if this persons blanket were blue or pink as a small tot?
 
  • #145
I think he didn't want to marry Kelsey anymore, but not necessarily never move out of his mother's home. What he needed was someone who can MAKE that happen without him putting in too much effort. KB stuck her ground. YOU, PF, are NOT moving in without a solid commitment. So, KB wouldn't give him what he wanted. Maybe instead of KB's parents helping her to buy a home he was expecting they would buy a ranch for HIM. KB's parents made the house purchase possible for their daughter as often rent is more costly than a 30 year mortgage. But I am sure, they did not want him moving in either and a year later leaving and claiming he owns half of everything due to "common law." PF needed a wealthier sugar mama.
Edit: bigger to wealthier. size had nothing to do with it :)
You know looking for a sugar mama does make some sense. Nothing more alluring to the next woman than a man with a baby and sob story about being deserted by his fiance and his poor motherless child.
 
  • #146
Back to the Cinnamon Rolls. A better rehearsed person would have put away the baked goods and packed an overnight bag to give the illusion she left on her own free will.

SBM
I also hate to go back to the cinnamon rolls, but it occurred to me during all the discussion about the clean-up that how would he/they paint and/or drywall, and still leave the cinnamon rolls untouched on the counter? IMO, seems unlikely that they'd still be sitting there.
 
  • #147
I think he secured the baby so as to have physical custody, and arranged for the texts, as well as his alibi, hoping it would lead toward the idea of her leaving, and something happening to her en route. She took a week off, handed over baby, and split, as far as he knew. As long as he had the child when she was discovered to be missing, it made it much easier to keep her. Offering DNA to prove custody, if that is why, would not implicate him, since he knew her, spent time at her home etc.

But with pre-planning...leaving her cars there was a weird oversight.

Also if family were “helpers” in his plot...would that be more of a conspiracy than a solicitation? I guess solicitation to me involves money. Whereas a family plot seems otherwise. Jmo
I've been skimming the threads like crazy but they move too fast, so forgive me if this has been mentioned.

When would he have murdered her in her home? Was she sleeping during that time? It had to have been Thursday afternoon. But why do it in the house, risking blood splatter and how did he get the body out? And then the baby. Especially with no one seeing anything?! How did he paint and fix the drywall with no one seeing him carrying in supplies and then his departure? What would he have said if someone stopped him? "Oh, just doing some painting and repair work while she's gone."

Seems he'd have to get rid of the body quick. Unless, she was removed later by "painters" with a trailer and she was put into the trailer with purse and phone.

Did someone drive the trailer to Idaho, send the texts, get rid of the body and return to CO. Boy, but even that was risky.

Have they checked the surrounding areas of her condo? Seems it would be easiest to bury her there and not have to haul her or the trailer some 1600 miles.

Sorry if I missed this when I was speed skimming.
 
  • #148
I’m putting myself in the shoes of someone who believes the only way for him to get something is murder. Someone to whom the thing to gain outweighs murder.
What would let him believe that the only way for him to get something is murder?
Murder is PRE-TTY heavy : what gain could outweigh murder? -since evidently it was planned.
And what would a 3rd party have to gain by that outcome too? I highly doubt “payment upfront”, but something that could be gained/offered post elimination of KB?
 
  • #149
Back to the cinnamon rolls (again). Beginning to believe he disposed of her body the same day he killed her. He showed up early in the day. And had he returned a second time, a good chance he'd have remembered to put them away and pack an overnight bag to stage a disappearance.
 
  • #150
I guess that really depends on what they found in the trash and cell records.
Where I am, there are very strict rules about unlawful detention. LE cannot arrest someone and hold them indefinitely without an arraignment.

I checked CO and apparently it is lawful to arrest someone and hold them without arraignment for days or even weeks. It is a state by state issue.

It is not IMO relevant about bail, because PF will be no bonded or given a multimillion dollar unattainable amount. The issue is that PF has been arrested, yet the DA will not be required to show any of their cards until at least Dec. 31. They may even ask for a continuance for many more weeks - to avoid revealing their evidence. How long should any person be under arrest but not arraigned? Months? Years? How long should the government have to secure their investigation and case without revealing anything?

I think the evidence of the solicitation must be very strong, perhaps recovered from his electronics. I have come to think that it's likely someone else committed the murder. LE doesn't know who or there would be a conspiracy charge on PF and another person under arrest.

The solicitation charge ties PF to the death, and the those two things together create the murder charge. That's the connect the dots.

Similar to Teresa Sievers husband who hired two hitmen to murder her while he was clearly out of state. The husband did not physically murder her, but he was charged with 1st degree murder.
 
  • #151
The solicitation charge refers to enlisting another person “to commit another crime,” whether it’s burglary, robbery or murder, May said.
“(It’s a crime) if you’re soliciting someone to help out, and it isn’t just a discussion,” May said.
De Young said more arrests are “an absolute possibility.”
May said details about the solicitation charge will be released when Frazee is charged

So we'll get this info when PF is at his first appearance, I expect. Any date yet?

Missing Woodland Park woman, Kelsey Berreth, presumed dead; fiance arrested in her murder
So, if PF solicited someone, ahead of time, to “enter unlawfully” KB’s home, to remove a dead body, would that fall under Solicitation of Murder charge??
 
  • #152
Yes to all of this! I agree with your lie theory as well. There were several people to have reported unsubstantiated claims about KB as you stated above. To me it would make sense those seeds have been planted along the way whether for pathological reasons or in preparation to follow through with the plan of murder.

Keeping up with lies would be exhausting and never ending. I imagine they began as little white lies online and morphed from there. I also wonder how much contact KB had with his family.....were lies told to both sides to keep them from connecting the dots?

Absolutely! "Keeping up with lies would be exhausting and never ending." For fun I'll repeat something I posted several threads ago. There's a German saying my mom reminded us of as children, "Lies have short legs," implying the truth has long legs and it WILL catch up to you :)
 
  • #153
Absolutely! "Keeping up with lies would be exhausting and never ending." For fun I'll repeat something I posted several threads ago. There's a German saying my mom reminded us of as children, "Lies have short legs," implying the truth has long legs and it WILL catch up to you :)
My German mother used to say that to me!!!
 
  • #154
SPOILER ALERT: No cinnamon rolls mentioned in this post.

Betcha the purpose of those texts was NOT to buy time but to make it appear that Kelsey was NOT in the area. This makes me believe, she is. If he had returned to her home AFTER generating the texts, its reasonable to think he'd put away the "you-know-whats" and pack a bag with her stuff. But he never did.
 
  • #155
You know looking for a sugar mama does make some sense. Nothing more alluring to the next woman than a man with a baby and sob story about being deserted by his fiance and his poor motherless child.
Thanks for that! I was beginning to think I was "losing it!" :)
 
  • #156
  • #157
I'm in the camp where I don't believe any of this was due to a custody issue. People in a relationship who are progressing to marriage don't have custody issues. But then I also don't buy the "break up" story either, since PF is the only one who said they had ended the relationship, and by the way PF backtracked that statement through his attorney when it made him a viable POI. PF used the break up story because he knew it would justify his cold behavior, having his daughter for an extended period, and the last minute trip he claimed Kelsey took. As soon as it also gave credence to a murder, he changed and had his attorney state that the relationship was fine.
Kelsey was 29 years old, living on her own, with a child out of wedlock, there was no reason to paint a pretty picture for her mother in regards to the relationship she had with PF. If they had broken up she would have told her mother. So I don't think this had anything to do with custody issues.
I had thought there might be another woman, but if that were the case I would have expected that woman to come forward and given that Patrick wasn't married to Kelsey, it would be easy enough to dump her and move on. So that can't be it.
That he planned this for months says it wasn't an act of rage, it was something he mulled over which means it's deeper than he was triggered by something one day. He may have anger issues, but this was planned, done in cool moments where he'd wasn't in a heated state.
I keep coming back to it being about the lies he's told. I believe he lied to Kelsey about who and what he was. I believe he lied to his family about Kelsey and who she was. I think all those lies were catching up and it was getting to hard to juggle all the balls. I also believe he didn't want to marry Kelsey, I think they had planned a wedding and he gave her the financial excuse as a way to get out of it. He may have run out of excuses to not get married and didn't want to admit he had never planned to marry her. Sadly it may be as simple as that, he didn't want to get married and had run out of excuses. JMO
Or it could be that Kelsey didn't want to marry him. She may have figured out that he was not a highly motivated individual. Also I suspect he had many online or long distance relationships where the person doesn't really get in your way. Think about "The Bachelor." They are so in love as long as they are in the fantasy setting. Get back to reality, families that don't mesh, jobs, friends that the SO doesn't fit in with and the dreams implodes like a baking cake in an earthquake. He may not have taken the rejection very well.
 
  • #158
Maybe someone else was supposed to help move one of her vehicles but backed out at the last minute? It's hard to move a car very far on your own. No matter where he took it he would need a way to get back. I've seen in other cases where the perp took a bike with them or jogged away from an abandoned car-- but they could only move it a few miles away. And they got caught--either somone saw them or they were caught on camera or they got a ride from someone and that person came forward to police. It's risky to move the victim's car. JMO.
I wonder if the text that PF "received" addressed the issue of transportation....
 
  • #159
My German mother used to say that to me!!!
So funny! My 85 year old mother lives with us now, yes she lives with US, not the other was around :) She still uses it sometimes when she's watching crooked politicians on the news.
 
  • #160
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