CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #17 *ARREST*

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  • #681
Did anyone notice in that article I last posted, it said PF was primary caregiver?!?!

I doubt the veracity of this info. The man quoted only saw PF on occasions when PF was shoeing livestock for him and knew he had his daughter with him some days. PF might have said he was the primary caregiver or might have only looked that way because he had baby K with him during the day. We don't know if PF kept baby K full time during the week or if baby K went back to Kelsey every night. PF might have only provided daytime care while KB had nights and weekends. I think we need more info on the care arrangements and the relationship status before we call either parent more primary than the other. MOO.
 
  • #682
No new news it seems.. Just reading through the forum on speculations.. so frustrating. The family needs closure.. I hope we get some news soon on any of this.
 
  • #683
No, no. Sorry. I think your post is a wonderful addition to the information. It just struck me as funny because those are cases where the perpetrator was caught and the body was found. The most useful information, what we cannot have, are unsolved cases where no body is found. Just ignore me, I always think outside the box, have some trouble getting inside the box. :)
It's good insight for those of us who may have a hard time thinking outside the box.
 
  • #684
It's good insight for those of us who may have a hard time thinking outside the box.

I agree and have learned to appreciate everyone's thoughts on these cases. It really helps to get different ideas and different possibilities.

Over time something I learned about myself is I would be a terrible juror because I tend to flow with the tide. LOL
One minute Im ready to hang a person by their toenails and when a different person brings up another possibility or other facts about a case then I tend to flip flop. I have gotten better at trying to be open minded and to gather all the facts as we go forward and everyone's input is valuable to these cases.
 
  • #685
Agree. The solicitation/premeditation really throws me, because if it was planned, well, it's not easy to follow his plan with what we know. I think maybe he was trying to play 12 dimensional chess - tell her mom she broke up with him and ran off to Idaho, tell his lawyer/LE a different story, but one that makes it look like she ran away to commit suicide. But only phone and purse are gone, car and truck still in the drive. There are still too many pieces missing. I feel like he was trying to lead LE to her committing suicide because that is an explanation of why she left K and didn't call to check on her or anything.

I think he tried to get someone to do it and maybe it was planned for TG because it is when a lot of travelling happens and a few days of her on holiday from work would give him time. But the solicitee didn't come through. Now he's angry and frustrated, so does it when a chance presents itself. If it was supposed to be a home invasion after he picked up K or if she was supposed to commit suicide there, he was planning on her body being found.

Whatever he planned, I think when he allegedly killed her on TG, he had to improvise.
Agreed, the timeframe of Thanksgiving is perfect because you have people who might be missing from the neighborhood, but you would think nothing of it and think they are away. Does delay the whole process of people noticing her missing
 
  • #686
I agree and have learned to appreciate everyone's thoughts on these cases. It really helps to get different ideas and different possibilities.

Over time something I learned about myself is I would be a terrible juror because I tend to flow with the tide. LOL
One minute Im ready to hang a person by their toenails and when a different person brings up another possibility or other facts about a case then I tend to flip flop. I have gotten better at trying to be open minded and to gather all the facts as we go forward and everyone's input is valuable to these cases.

I would be a terrible juror because of WS...seems like most of the people suspected/charged are guilty in the end. I tend to assume now that LE holds back charging until they are sure. Which I know is not good (thinking that way) but there we are...jmo
 
  • #687
It has been mentioned a few times by a few different users that PF may attempt an insanity plea. Colorado Revised Statutes have specific provisions for pleading insanity during criminal procedures (CRS 16-8-103 at Lexis). A Colorado attorney provided a summation of the insanity defense and the “rules” used by the courts to determine if a defendant was “insane” at the time of the crime. The University of Colorado Law School has a 1992 article discussing the insanity defense (yes, it's a bit outdated).

According to a University of Colorado 2015 article, Colorado is one of 11 states that require the prosecution to prove SANITY, rather than requiring the defendant to prove INSANITY (or not permitting the insanity defense at all, like three states, one of which is Idaho). It should be noted that although the rule set used by Colorado includes “crimes of passion” (murder motivated by rage, jealousy, etc.), the article states that Colorado excludes passion-fueled criminal offenses from coverage under an insanity plea. The Denver Post also has an article (2013, updated in 2016) discussing an insanity plea in Colorado and opining that it is outdated, antiquated, and an uphill battle for prosecutors because of the element of reasonable doubt in criminal procedures (“beyond” it for the prosecution to get a conviction; a hint of it by the defense to hang a jury and get an acquittal, dismissal, or not guilty verdict).

In Colorado (and other states, presumably), a defendant gives up “the right to remain silent” (along with other rights) when they submit an insanity plea. Another article states that an insanity defense is actually only used in about one percent of all felony cases and only successful in one-fourth of that one percent. Even if PF submits an insanity plea, it is unlikely that it will be successful because of actions and comments on his part that counter such a plea (and the fact that child services stated the baby was not in danger while in his care).

- - -

Questioning Motive

@MassGuy said: I don’t see a clear picture as to what the motive is here. (post 587 on this page)

PF's motive would be no more clear to the general public (or even intimate associates) than that of Susan Smith, Andrea Yates, Casey Anthony, Jodi Arias, Eric Harris & Dylan Klebold, JBR's mother (not accused or convicted but I'm convinced), Jeffrey MacDonald, Ronald DeFeo, the Menendez brothers, the Manson family, or the Zodiac Killer.

Some of those examples go way beyond the one-on-one dynamic of PF and KB, but the motives are likely just as mysterious. In many, many cases, when one partner kills another – it's little more than “if I can't have you, no one can.” (See OJ's book telling how he did it even after a court determined he didn't do it, for example.) The little rage machine goes into overdrive and someone ends up dead.

- - -

PF's mom - her "independence" questioned. HE lived with her, not the other way around. Any issues with independence (financial, psychological, or otherwise) were clearly on his side of that fence, not his mother's.
 
  • #688
It looks like she bought a home that was a bit of a location compromise between her work and his mom's acreage. That actually appears to be a very considerate decision on her part.

Maybe she had good friends through work, but they were all told that she had plans not only for the weekend, but the following week. If they all accepted that at face value, no one would have looked for her.

I'm curious why a successful 29 year old pilot who trained military pilots would choose a man who lived with mom. Any thoughts?
Remember she was raised on a farm. He is by some accounts 'a good ol cowboy'. So they had that lifestyle in common. She might have thought him living with mom,and helping her was a sign of a good decent family man.
Moo
 
  • #689
I would be a terrible juror because of WS...seems like most of the people suspected/charged are guilty in the end. I tend to assume now that LE holds back charging until they are sure. Which I know is not good (thinking that way) but there we are...jmo

That actually could be true for very serious charges like murder. I wonder if we can dig up any statistics for the people charged with murder, what is the percentage of successful convictions?

Ill see if I can find any statistics on this.

ETA - I found one place that gave murder conviction rate as 70%. Link Below.
Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - FAQ Detail
 
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  • #690
  • #691
I doubt the veracity of this info. The man quoted only saw PF on occasions when PF was shoeing livestock for him and knew he had his daughter with him some days. PF might have said he was the primary caregiver or might have only looked that way because he had baby K with him during the day. We don't know if PF kept baby K full time during the week or if baby K went back to Kelsey every night. PF might have only provided daytime care while KB had nights and weekends. I think we need more info on the care arrangements and the relationship status before we call either parent more primary than the other. MOO.
Not to mention, her neighbor said she saw him at Kelsey's picking up the baby frequently. I don't think he had primary custody, more like he took care of her during the daytime hours and Kelsey had her at night and/or weekends. JMO.
 
  • #692
Exactly. We don't know who her good friends were, but it would be a bit of a shocker that a 29 year old pilot had no friends.

Quite often, he who lives with mom after he turns 30 years old also falls on the sword and cares for mom because someone has to. Fact is, he is over 30 years of age and has not lived independently even though a woman pregnant with his child moved nearby, got a local job and bought a home. For some reason, even though all this was in place, they never lived together. How did that end with murder?

"How did this end in murder," you ask? I think PF and KB were "drifting" for a while. Maintaining the status quo for appearance sake. Not broken up but the cracks where visible, at least to them. PF cheated on a former girlfriend as per Daily Mail article quoted by a SO of a former girlfriend of PF. So there's a history of sorts with straying, for him. We KNOW this was a premeditated act as per charges filed against him. I bet LE already know where his sights/sites were set. Trolling for the next one. KB was really too good for him and he probably felt she'd figured that out. She was a successful professional by all accounts. He was stuck with mom, for whatever reason. He wanted to start fresh, with a new, naive/gullable dish and perhaps he thought he could play this performance a little better in Act III, because let's face it, the last two Acts weren't a stellar performance. I can't get into his head, but I think he loves baby K, "whatever love is" to him (are not those the words Prince C used during an interview with DS before she entered that disastrous union?) His only obstacle to moving on was is KB, because he would be unwilling not to have full custody and he would have to fight for it. He wants complete control. Did he have the funds for that battle? And, could he even win it? In his sick twisted mind the only option was to "disappear" KB, so he could move ahead unhindered pursuing a new love "fantasy" with his daughter and no interference from KB. JMO

edit: spelling
 
  • #693
This is the question I have been pondering. The answer could be a few different reasons.

Its interesting that whoever it is, PF thought he/she may say yes to what PF was asking him/her to do. We dont yet know if this other person or persons even agreed to anything but we do know PF thought he/she may agree which is interesting.

Some of the reasons PF felt this way could be

A-the person was a very close friend for a long time

B-the person was related to PF in some way

C-the person was a business friend he had done business with

D-the person was a rodeo friend from his rodeo adventures

E-PF knew this other person had done other illegal or shady things in his past so maybe PF thought the person would not mind doing him an illegal favor

F-PF offered the person a lot of money to help

G-One of PF's friends, relatives, or associates told PF about this other 3rd person that would help him for some money

Lots of possibilities.
I vote E!
 
  • #694
Imo
I think it's about control. He resented her not being a stay at home mom, he resented her high flying career, He resented being her own woman. He couldn't control her like he could control his 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬. He resented her independence. He would show her like he showed his horse in the trailer, or the horse he rasped in the stomach.
I think you may be right and in time we may have some evidence of this. Since Kelsey was described as sweet, shy, and reserved, I wonder if PF thought she would be easy to control and manipulate when they first met.
It must not have taken him long to realize this was not the case. I don't think it took Kelsey very long to figure out what he was truly like either. There must be a reason why they never lived together. I wonder if she ever sensed she might be in danger?
 
  • #695
But isn't solicitation quite clear? That is asking someone to murder someone. It is not helping someone to help them get rid of a body.
I’m still trying to get a clear picture of what all the solicitation for murder charge can entail as well.

I found this article. Skip down to the part
“1. What is Criminal Solicitation?”

Colorado’s "Criminal Solicitation" Laws (18-2-301 C.R.S.)

If I’m understanding this correctly, for EXAMPLE and hypothetically speaking... if PF had some conversations with friends about killing KB/wanting her dead...but no formal plans, he is guilty of nothing. But if KB then turns up dead, friends report these conversations to police, AND there are google searches found on his computer searching for the going rate on hitmen...he has a problem.

If I’m understanding this correctly, it seems to me that a solicitation for murder charge can be filed even if PF did not solicit anyone in particular. That was interesting to me.

HOWEVER, with evidence showing up in Idaho (where last ping was), search warrants issued in Idaho and LE stating more arrests are possible, I still lean toward thinking someone else was more formally involved.

MOO

*someone please correct me if I’m interpreting the charges incorrectly
 
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  • #696
Questioning Motive [USER=219191 said:
@MassGuy[/USER] said: I don’t see a clear picture as to what the motive is here. (post 587 on this page)

PF's motive would be no more clear to the general public (or even intimate associates) than that of Susan Smith, Andrea Yates, Casey Anthony, Jodi Arias, Eric Harris & Dylan Klebold, JBR's mother (not accused or convicted but I'm convinced), Jeffrey MacDonald, Ronald DeFeo, the Menendez brothers, the Manson family, or the Zodiac Killer.

Some of those examples go way beyond the one-on-one dynamic of PF and KB, but the motives are likely just as mysterious. In many, many cases, when one partner kills another – it's little more than “if I can't have you, no one can.” (See OJ's book telling how he did it even after a court determined he didn't do it, for example.) The little rage machine goes into overdrive and someone ends up dead.

- - -

PF's mom - her "independence" questioned. HE lived with her, not the other way around. Any issues with independence (financial, psychological, or otherwise) were clearly on his side of that fence, not his mother's.

Good point about motive. As a fellow South Carolinian, Susan Smith is a case that really hit me hard. It was another of those cases where you just knew she was guilty the first time you heard about it and her motive made no sense to anyone but her.
 
  • #697
The solicitation charge of first degree murder is a charge against PF. Doesn't that assume that he himself asked, begged, paid someone to try to kill Kelsey for him, or with him? It doesn't IMHO imply that anyone accepted this "request" or even acted on it. Thoughts?
 
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  • #698
/The Twin Falls police department may have to cut back on resources in the Kelsey case as a Callie Heck is now reported missing. This young girl went missing only a few hours ago. KMVT web site and Twin Falls police department Facebook. Hoping everything turns out ok (Southern Idaho News Weather Sports Obits | KMVT | Magic Valley)
 
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  • #699
The solicitation charge of first degree murder is a charge against PF. Doesn't that assume that he himself asked, begged, paid someone to try to kill Kelsey for him, or with him? It doesn't IMHO imply that anyone accepted this "request" of even acted on it. Thoughts?
I keep going back to the press confrence. Where they place great emphasis on the possibility of further arrest in the future.
That really grabbed me, not just what was said, but the way it was said.
 
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  • #700
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