CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #26 *ARREST*

[MassGuy]

Clayton Sandell‏Verified account @Clayton_Sandell 15m15 minutes ago
This morning the @SheriffTeller served Patrick Frazee with the federal wrongful death lawsuit filed by the parents of his presumed-dead fiancée #KelseyBerreth. Frazee faces a preliminary hearing in his criminal murder case Feb. 19th. @abc @CarolAMcKinley

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Haaa! This is the least of his worries at this point.

It’s like a doctor diagnosing you with a terminal illness, and then telling you that he’s found an ingrown hair on your neck.

 

[karinbean_]

Patrick Frazee served with civil lawsuit

 

[KSinMT]

Well, yes, but I thought the scenario was whether or not one parent can legally take the child from another parent without a custody order. I thought the OP had said generally the parent who has possession of the child would have the last say.
I don't see how that would work for too long, that's why I made the point about LE not being able to enforce visitation without a legal document stating the visitation schedule.
If one parent wants visitation and the other does too, it can get very difficult to prevent the other from taking the child somewhere when they both have equal rights to the child. I don't see how the one who has possession can make the decision as the other parent is also entitled to see the child. That's what I was trying to say and at this point I'm probably not making any sense. Imo

I understand what you're saying and although it doesn't seem right, I do know that without a legal agreement in place law enforcement or any other agency can and will not intervene. So basically, if my fiance were to leave tomorrow and take our daughter, I would have no right to go take her from him or even visit without a legal arrangement in place.

ETA on the other hand, I believe if he left her at a babysitters or something, I could legally take her from someone other than him and gain control that way. It's screwy I know, but that's why it's so important to have a legal plan in place.

 

[Trudie]

They probably can’t prove that a weapon was involved.

I personally believe that PF did use a weapon here.

....just thinking if a person with intimate knowledge is talking, he may know. If LE questioned him, they’d demand to know (if they thought witness not truthful)
As they’d want to know if they should be searching for a weapon.
I have no idea if he did or did not use a weapon. If he was pissed enough to kill her, his hands would suffice as his weapon of choice, imo.

 

[PrairieWind]

I think it was a trailer, so quite large, which is maybe???? something his friends borrowed from him. But why go along with them? And why not get out and help them unload?
If it is a red herring, was he going along because he had things he needed to dispose of he wanted to see how closely he was being watched?

He would go along because its his truck and trailer. Didn't help unload because its not his stuff. I just don't see him dumping incriminating evidence at the dump like that. He may not be the brightest guy in the world, but he was at least trying to cover his tracks. So I don't see him doing something so blatantly stupid. But I could be wrong. Criminals do really stupid stuff all the time.

 

[Jethro4WS]

THE FOLLOWING IS ALL IN MY OPINION ONLY *****

The thing is, it's confusing --- PF wanted people to believe that KB had taken off and gone north. But... he also wanted it to look like a robbery gone bad and she was killed in her home. You can't have it both ways. It doesn't make sense.

Another contributing factor was KB's grandmother being ill in WA.
Maybe KB expressed to PF that she wanted to move back to WA with Baby Girl. Or PF knew KB wanted to visit her grandmother and was afraid that once back in WA, she would want to move back there.

This case reminds me more and more of CW's case.
1. Financial stress
A. PF probably didn't make that much money as a farrier. People knew him to abuse animals.
B. Cattle price were down
C. He's getting older and having to compete with guys in the teens or early 20s in the rodeo competitions
D. After buying the townhouse, KB may have ased that PF start paying child support

2. Custody
A. PF didn't want another man raising hs child
B. PF wanted Baby Girl for the sake of his mother who had lived alone w/PF for 20 years
C. PF would want to block any efforts of KB to move away w/ Baby Girl
D. If KB were dead, he would control Baby Girl and her inheritance + insurance payouts

3. Sexin'
A. PF Didn't want to give up his cozying up w/ rodeo girls
B. His sex life w/ KK may have been very different than KB

4. Don't tell me what to do!
A. PF was sick of answering to his mother about everything
B. PF didn't want to deal w/ KB making demands on him

5. Dads
Where are the dads of PF and KB? It is unusual not to hear from either of them

IMO **** MOO

Kelsey's father has been quoted in the media. Haven't heard from PF's father.

 

[PommyMommy]

Does anyone know if KK has a lawyer yet?

Yes, she does.

 

[cluciano63]

How about the “sensitive evidence” being sent to CO from ID LE? How do we know that isn’t human remains that FBI was testing? Maybe they are waiting on results for another arrest. jMO

If the wording was media’s...I don’t even believe it. Anyway all evidence is sensitive.

 

[MsBetsy]

Here Child Services link in CO
Parent Information

Father's Rights in Colorado

Edit added 2nd link

Thanks! Haven't read it yet but I will.

 

[Mom24]

He would go along because its his truck and trailer. Didn't help unload because its not his stuff. I just don't see him dumping incriminating evidence at the dump like that. He may not be the brightest guy in the world, but he was at least trying to cover his tracks. So I don't see him doing something so blatantly stupid. But I could be wrong. Criminals do really stupid stuff all the time.

Makes sense. I had assumed he was there to see how closely he was being watched and to taunt LE. He had to know he was being watched so he knew what was going to happen. If someone needed to borrow his trailer, he didn't need to be there which makes me think this was a taunt to mess with LE.

 

[cluciano63]

I don’t think we know anything from PF’s personal medical history. We have no idea whether he has even been evaluated by a professional before, much less been diagnosed with a specific disorder. I think people are forming their own judgments based on what they understand narcissism’s traits to be, and comparing those to what they know about PF. I’m just interested in the thought process among our members that has led to that conclusion.

Jmo in many cases I have followed here, which is lots...that term seems to get assigned by posters to any man who kils his wife or girlfriend...and once in a while, vice versa...

 

[cluciano63]

I don’t think we know anything from PF’s personal medical history. We have no idea whether he has even been evaluated by a professional before, much less been diagnosed with a specific disorder. I think people are forming their own judgments based on what they understand narcissism’s traits to be, and comparing those to what they know about PF. I’m just interested in the thought process among our members that has led to that conclusion.

Jmo in many cases I have followed here, which is lots...that term seems to get assigned by posters to any man who kils his wife or girlfriend...and once in a while, vice versa...

 

[PrairieWind]

Makes sense. I had assumed he was there to see how closely he was being watched and to taunt LE. He had to know he was being watched so he knew what was going to happen. If someone needed to borrow his trailer, he didn't need to be there which makes me think this was a taunt to mess with LE.

That is certainly possible too. He went along personally and acted a little weird (not getting out) just to make LE suspicious and waste time sifting through the trash after he left.

 

[cluciano63]

Sorry for dup post...WS is weirding out on me, won’t let me edit one away...

 

[Trudie]

ALERT

Inside Edition is going to talk about KK. Opening teaser. Get your TV to the correct station.

 

[The Saint]

I added some points to my list.

Once again, they are IMO***
4
E. If there was a dispute about PF paying child support, he could have feared that KB would find out and reveal that PF had been understating his income on his taxes for years and/or is involved in illegal money-making activities. It could also piss off his mom if she found out he was making ore money that he told her and she had been supporting him

5. Dads
Where are the dads of PF and KB? It is unusual not to hear from either of them

IMO **** MOO

 

[The Saint]

ALERT

Inside Edition is going to talk about KK. Opening teaser. Get your TV to the correct station.

@Trudie and everyone,
who do you think does the best up-to-date reporting on this case?

 

[Seattle1]

I have a question from the perspective of psychological profiling. It seems like “narcissist” is the go-to word that is used in cases of husbands who kill their wives/kids.

I know generally what narcissism is. But my question is, can a person do what PF or CW allegedly did and NOT be a narcissist? We still know so little about PF - how is it that so many people call him a narcissist even while not having very much to go on? I’m not saying they’re wrong, I just would like to know what factors have gone into forming such an opinion.

Someone can have traits of a disorder without meeting full criteria, and I believe it's the traits many posters recognize in all these similar cases. There's so much good info and posts by professionals in the Watts thread.

The link below has some good info that may also answer your question:

There is certainly some overlap between these two personality disorders (i.e., narcissists, sociopaths), which is why they are both part of the “Cluster B” group in the DSM (comprised of narcissistic, histrionic, antisocial, and borderline personality disorders). Sociopathy is captured by the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder.
Despite both being part of this “dramatic erratic”, cluster, however, the two disorders are not interchangeable. Nor are they always so easy to identify in the day-to-day.

Narcissist or Sociopath? Similarities, Differences and Signs

Also - Sociopath or Psychopath

How to Tell a Sociopath from a Psychopath

 

[Trudie]

He would go along because its his truck and trailer. Didn't help unload because its not his stuff. I just don't see him dumping incriminating evidence at the dump like that. He may not be the brightest guy in the world, but he was at least trying to cover his tracks. So I don't see him doing something so blatantly stupid. But I could be wrong. Criminals do really stupid stuff all the time.

I so agree. If he is so stupid, he should have put his hands behind his back & confessed.
Bet he laughed his butt off reading headlines & watching clips insinuating he was disposing of evidence.

 

[The Saint]

I think it was a trailer, so quite large, which is maybe???? something his friends borrowed from him. But why go along with them? And why not get out and help them unload?
If it is a red herring, was he going along because he had things he needed to dispose of he wanted to see how closely he was being watched?

I think that the 2 guys were his workers at the ranchette. PF had to maintain his narcissistic "I'm the boss" posture. If they were day workers, he'd think "I paid these guys to do this job. I'm not getting out of my truck. I'm supervising their work."

PF also wouldntwant to risk being ambushed by a lurking reporter. He'd be faced with having his face all over TV and the awkward silence.
IMO