CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #26 *ARREST*

[Trudie]

@Trudie and everyone,
who do you think does the best up-to-date reporting on this case?

Lol. I’m trying to determine the outlet with accuracy.
IE should be doing nurse update next. Right now the coverage is Golden Globe attire.

 

[MassGuy]

@Trudie and everyone,
who do you think does the best up-to-date reporting on this case?

Sam Kraemer and Clayton Sandell have been solid. They don’t report anything without verifying it first.

Clayton knew about KK a couple weeks ago, but sat on the information until he was confident in reporting it.

Sam Kraemer on Twitter

Clayton Sandell on Twitter

 

[MyBelle]

J. Johnson's comments (also on HLN) make the most sense to me so far. She explains that the wrongful death suit could be to get the upper hand regarding custody. In other words, if PF gets off in the criminal case, but the B's win in the civil case, he won't get Baby K back.

Video at this link:

HLN Weekend Express on Twitter
Kelsey Berreth’s parents are suing Patrick Frazee for wrongful death, negligence, and conspiracy. He’s been charged by the state too. Defense Attorney @JJohnsonLaw looks at both cases.

Of course it is to get the upper hand in custody! Nancy Cooper's and Michelle Young's parents did the same thing. iirc, Cooper submitted to a deposition and Young refused but in the end, both men lost custody of their children. JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

I understand what you're saying and although it doesn't seem right, I do know that without a legal agreement in place law enforcement or any other agency can and will not intervene. So basically, if my fiance were to leave tomorrow and take our daughter, I would have no right to go take her from him or even visit without a legal arrangement in place.

ETA on the other hand, I believe if he left her at a babysitters or something, I could legally take her from someone other than him and gain control that way. It's screwy I know, but that's why it's so important to have a legal plan in place.

You are so right. I don't know how anybody does it without one. They must be two very patient, understanding and generous people to be able to do it. Even then it's hard. I have a friend who is a cop. The father of her child is also a cop. He came to her house to pick up the child in the middle of a family gathering at her house. She didn't want him to take her. He did, and it got very ugly. They called the cops, and they arrived just as her dad was getting ready to hit the guy with his cane to prevent him from taking the baby. He was a cop too. The (other) cops arrested him and took HIM to jail. It was a horrible, emotional experience for everybody there. But I'm sure there are worse stories than that. Imo

 

[Trudie]

I added some points to my list.

Once again, they are IMO***
4
E. If there was a dispute about PF paying child support, he could have feared that KB would find out and reveal that PF had been understating his income on his taxes for years and/or is involved in illegal money-making activities. It could also piss of his mom if she found out he was making ore money that he told her and she had been supporting him

5. Dads
Where are the dads of PF and KB? It is unusual not to hear from either of them

IMO **** MOO

Did ma F support him? Financially?

I do not find it the least bit unusual for a grown man to live on a family farm/ranch/property.
For all I know, his mom requested PF live with her.
Moo

 

[The Night Watchman]

Twelve days after the initial WPPD news conference regarding Kelsey's disappearance, and with no body found; PF is charged with first degree murder (premeditated), and three count of solicitation to commit murder. Lightning speed.

We are now about 20 days after PF's arrest, and no one else has been arrested, ie the people he solicited, maybe actually helped in the crime, or covered up the crime. Paint drying.

I think this is unusual. Is it?

We think somebody(s) is talking. Some ways to deal with suspects-

1) arrest them, and work down the charges in exchange for information and agreement to testify.

2) have them on notice that they will be arrested pending a lack of cooperation.

3) bluff them regarding charges, in hope they give information.

4) other approaches that I can't think of.

I don't understand 20 days without an arrest. I'm getting impatient (selfishly, haha).

And I'm starting to question if there will actually be more arrests. This may be a bad thing, but not necessarily so. Thoughts?

 

[WildWest]

Someone can have traits of a disorder without meeting full criteria, and I believe it's the traits many posters recognize in all these similar cases. There's so much good info and posts by professionals in the Watts thread.

The link below has some good info that may also answer your question:

There is certainly some overlap between these two personality disorders (i.e., narcissists, sociopaths), which is why they are both part of the “Cluster B” group in the DSM (comprised of narcissistic, histrionic, antisocial, and borderline personality disorders). Sociopathy is captured by the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder.
Despite both being part of this “dramatic erratic”, cluster, however, the two disorders are not interchangeable. Nor are they always so easy to identify in the day-to-day.

Narcissist or Sociopath? Similarities, Differences and Signs

Also - Sociopath or Psychopath

How to Tell a Sociopath from a Psychopath

I recall many of the articles on that case. CW was good to, and preserved Dieter, maybe an expert can chime in about animal abuse on this thread.

 

[haven71]

It may or may not have been that specific, but I think that was likely the gist.

“Honey, I’m really stressed out, and need to get away to clear my head...”

I wouldn’t be surprised if he added something to make himself look better like “you’re the best father and a real standout guy, but...”

 

[MassGuy]

Did ma F support him? Financially?

I do not find it the least bit unusual for a grown man to live on a family farm/ranch/property.
For all I know, his mom requested PF live with her.
Moo

No. But what is unusual, is the living arrangement between PF and KB.

Him living with his mother, not so unusual.

Him living apart from the fiancé that he has a child with, unusual.

The account that they had been broken up for a length of time, would certainly explain this.

But it came from PF, and I don’t trust anything that comes from PF.

 

[Hopefullyhelpful]

Does anyone know if KK has a lawyer yet?

Yes

 

[Trudie]

Twelve days after the initial WPPD news conference regarding Kelsey's disappearance, and with no body found; PF is charged with first degree murder (premeditated), and three count of solicitation to commit murder. Lightning speed.

We are now about 20 days after PF's arrest, and no one else has been arrested, ie the people he solicited, maybe actually helped in the crime, or covered up the crime. Paint drying.

I think this is unusual. Is it?

We think somebody(s) is talking. Some ways to deal with suspects-

1) arrest them, and work down the charges in exchange for information and agreement to testify.

2) have them on notice that they will be arrested pending a lack of cooperation.

3) bluff them regarding charges, in hope they give information.

4) other approaches that I can't think of.

I don't understand 20 days without an arrest. I'm getting impatient (selfishly, haha).

And I'm starting to question if there will actually be more arrests. This may be a bad thing, but not necessarily so. Thoughts?

I like #2. If such a person exists, he’s lawyered up & if not incarcerated, LE is satisfied he’s no flight threat or threat to anyone else, including himself. I’m guessing his lawyer is advising him cooperation is key to his future.
Moo

 

[MsBetsy]

I added some points to my list.

Once again, they are IMO***
4
E. If there was a dispute about PF paying child support, he could have feared that KB would find out and reveal that PF had been understating his income on his taxes for years and/or is involved in illegal money-making activities. It could also piss off his mom if she found out he was making ore money that he told her and she had been supporting him

5. Dads
Where are the dads of PF and KB? It is unusual not to hear from either of them

IMO **** MOO

We don't know if he payed support. My guess is he didn't. But I'm sure they each contributed to the care of the baby. Imo

 

[MyBelle]

Where her body is may affect jurisdiction. Unless the prosecution can absolutely prove Kelsey was killed in her home - not something circumstantial to let a jury weigh - it opens the door that Kelsey was killed elsewhere and if she is found outside of Colorado that would cause Colorado to have to drop the murder charges. If, for example, her body is found in Idaho, and a medical examiner can't conclude she was killed in Idaho then what state has jurisdiction - Wyoming, Utah, Idaho, or Colorado - since she could have been killed (or finally died) in any of those. One thing for certain is that double jeopardy attaches once a jury is impaneled so things can get complicated if the evidence of Kelsey being killed in her home is not solid and she turns up in another state.

I don't believe you are correct. Colorado has jurisdiction no matter where KB's body is found because the crime of murder was committed in Colorado and I'm confident there is evidence at the crime scene.

If KB were alive, taken across state lines and murdered, then kidnapping would be added to PF's Colorado charges. JMO

 

[NoeticSoul]

Twelve days after the initial WPPD news conference regarding Kelsey's disappearance, and with no body found; PF is charged with first degree murder (premeditated), and three count of solicitation to commit murder. Lightning speed.

We are now about 20 days after PF's arrest, and no one else has been arrested, ie the people he solicited, maybe actually helped in the crime, or covered up the crime. Paint drying.

I think this is unusual. Is it?

We think somebody(s) is talking. Some ways to deal with suspects-

1) arrest them, and work down the charges in exchange for information and agreement to testify.

2) have them on notice that they will be arrested pending a lack of cooperation.

3) bluff them regarding charges, in hope they give information.

4) other approaches that I can't think of.

I don't understand 20 days without an arrest. I'm getting impatient (selfishly, haha).

And I'm starting to question if there will actually be more arrests. This may be a bad thing, but not necessarily so. Thoughts?

My vote is for #1 because we don't know if they already have someone in (*protective*) custody and are just not saying they are a POI.

 

[Trudie]

No. But what is unusual, is the living arrangement between PF and KB.

Him living with his mother, not so unusual.

Him living apart from the fiancé that he has a child with, unusual.

The account that they had been broken up for a length of time, would certainly explain this.

But it came from PF, and I don’t trust anything that comes from PF.

I understand your opinion. I THINK KB was certain she would not be living with PF in the near future. Otherwise, I don’t believe she would have purchased a home.
If she anticipated him moving in with her, I think she would have purchased a much larger home. 750 sq ft is very small, especially for a two story, imo.
If we assume 250 sq ft for BRs total & another 150 for bath/kitchen, there virtually no space for a third person, imo.
Also, idk that KB did NOT want to live at the “ranchette”. Reportedly she enjoyed horses, outdoors, etc. I think PF did not want her living there. He could easily have said “mom won’t allow it, she owns the place”, & I do think he might have his own place in a barn.

Jmo

 

[gitana1]

Of course it is to get the upper hand in custody! Nancy Cooper's and Michelle Young's parents did the same thing. iirc, Cooper submitted to a deposition and Young refused but in the end, both men lost custody of their children. JMO

Except in those cases they were actual custody cases. Not wrongful death actions. So they were faced with either answering questions and incriminating themselves or not answering and thus prejudicing themselves in their custody case.

 

[Trudie]

My vote is for #1 because we don't know if they already have someone in (*protective*) custody and are just not saying they are a POI.

Yup, and @riolove77 confirmed this could be the case.

 

[NoeticSoul]

Yup, and @riolove77 confirmed this could be the case.

I'm hoping and praying they have more than 1 person in *protective custody* and are just covering all basis before charges are filed, if any. (moo!)

 

[Kapua]

Twelve days after the initial WPPD news conference regarding Kelsey's disappearance, and with no body found; PF is charged with first degree murder (premeditated), and three count of solicitation to commit murder. Lightning speed.

We are now about 20 days after PF's arrest, and no one else has been arrested, ie the people he solicited, maybe actually helped in the crime, or covered up the crime. Paint drying.

I think this is unusual. Is it?

We think somebody(s) is talking. Some ways to deal with suspects-

1) arrest them, and work down the charges in exchange for information and agreement to testify.

2) have them on notice that they will be arrested pending a lack of cooperation.

3) bluff them regarding charges, in hope they give information.

4) other approaches that I can't think of.

I don't understand 20 days without an arrest. I'm getting impatient (selfishly, haha).

And I'm starting to question if there will actually be more arrests. This may be a bad thing, but not necessarily so. Thoughts?

I've never followed a case involving solicitation before. IMHO, and I don't have statistics to back this up, most murderers prefer to act alone. You'd think that LE would prefer to have anyone criminally culpable arrested. Is it a crime to have been solicited to murder someone and not report that to LE?

 

[MassGuy]

I've never followed a case involving solicitation before. IMHO, and I don't have statistics to back this up, most murderers prefer to act alone. You'd think that LE would prefer to have anyone criminally culpable arrested. Is it a crime to have been solicited to murder someone and not report that to LE?

Nope. @riolove77 cleared that up for us.

Morally, it’s disgusting.

Legally, no crime.