CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #32 *ARREST*

[riolove77]

BBM. With all due respect, you do come across as an attorney who would be more likely to sit at the table closer to the jury, and I know that you know what I mean.

I'll let people who feel PF might stand a chance of getting off answer for themselves. You asked a question and I speculated, and I should not have. If there are those who feel this way, I hope that they will feel free to answer without the fear of being intimidated for expressing their opinion.

I would expect the jury will be instructed that the fact that PF has been arrested and charged is not to be considered by them as evidence that he is guilty of the crime. You are suggesting that since we are not on the jury that we should take law enforcement's word for it. I respect your opinion, but I will also wait--eagerly--to see their plethora of evidence.

I DO sit closer to the jury haha. You're correct about that.

I have zero intent of intimidating ANYONE. Just expressing my opinion about why people are speculating about his complete innocence.

However, we are also NOT on the jury and do NOT have to give him the benefit of the doubt. The presumption of innocence only exists in the courtroom. And in there, the jury will have all the evidence that we don't.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

I think they have compassion & concern for KB/family.
IMO, the “people” you reference are standing by their friend/s, friends they can’t comprehend engaging in criminal behavior, as they know them. IMO, they want & need to see the evidence. Jmo
If I learn ANY friend of mine killed his SO, I would not believe it, not until I heard the facts.
Moo

Well at least one of them CK stated that KB has taken off before. So he was disparaging KB, with no evidence according to LE,and KB's family of that narrative.
So how about proof that "KB has taken off before"?

 

[Bill Carson]

I DO sit closer to the jury haha. You're correct about that.

I have zero intent of intimidating ANYONE. Just expressing my opinion about why people are speculating about his complete innocence.

However, we are also NOT on the jury and do NOT have to give him the benefit of the doubt. The presumption of innocence only exists in the courtroom. And in there, the jury will have all the evidence that we don't.

Don't forget, too, that the duty of the prosecution is not to convict, but to see that justice is done. I think we can all agree on that.

 

[CDB]

I think Gardener and I are about the only ones going down this private plane theory road. In my case it's based upon the distance that KKL had to travel - if she she only had the holiday (long) weekend to travel to Colorado. Everything is a big IF. We don't know if she had vacation time that took her to Colorado earlier than Thanksgiving. The more time she had, the more possible it is that she drove. In something like a three day period it becomes less likely. That is a LONG drive.

I don't know if this true and someone else may, but I'm under the impression that there are a lot of private pilots out west. A friend who'd lived in Colorado told me that decades ago but who knows if she was right. If it is (more "ifs"), it increases the likelihood that PF and/or KKL have such an acquaintance. The thing is, if that's part of how things went down, then the private pilot would have to have been privy or a party to the murder. A pilot who wasn't and just flew KKL, would be a huge risk to the plan once they heard about this case because they would undoubtedly come forward. I would imagine that LE knows if, when and how KKL traveled to CO, by now. If I were an investigator and how she traveled was in question, I'd have checked all of the private flights between the Twin Falls area and as far as Colorado Springs. My fear in a scenario like this - a complicit, third party, private pilot - is that the body could be dumped over a remote area, from the plane. Sounds wild and more like something in a drug cartel type of case but it's a possibility in terms of theories.

The other thing I was thinking, regarding that landfill, was that maybe it's possible that a third party took the body to the Colorado Springs area, or wherever feeds into that landfill, in order to dump it. I'm certainly not going to implicate anyone as that possible third party but ya'll can use your imaginations.

I have considered flying because of the time it takes to travel by auto. However, having flown from both Idaho and Salt Lake to Colorado in commercial twin engine prop planes, I am reminded that you have to cross the Rocky Mountains. That is not a simple task with all the wind shear and turbulence that is encountered in the mountain passes. I know it can be done, but I would not be surprised with all of the required navigation requirements to find mountain passes that you actually end up traveling similar time frames. Small planes are not going up to 20000 feet and popping over the mountains. MOO

 

[Dave F.]

It's important to remember that he lied to her mother about Kelsey saying she was going to Soap Lake. I also don't believe baby K was due to be with him over the Thanksgiving long weekend.

PF was not the source of that specualtion. The first source that I saw was JG, who knew her as a household member. JG later withdrew it. Since they both have the same gramma, I would have to slap the coveted "TRUE" sticker on both the statement of speculation, and the withdrawal of same.
IMO

 

[Noharg]

If KK was testifying to it, then it wouldn't be hearsay because he said it directly to her. It's firsthand information.

Now, whether he said it or not is another story....

Thank you!

 

[InvSmith]

I read - and who knows if it's true - that after they met, online, he helped her move to Colorado.

Helping someone move to a rental and settling into a purchased home with a baby is an entirely different level of commitment.

 

[Dave F.]

I would like to make a comment toward a prior series of posts about just which discusses how many addresses are in the condo complex, since "one of these is not like the other". Some developers will build a "bare bones" unit, that they will use to back the an advertising claim of "Starting at the low, low price of $_____. " Most will also build a model home which contains all of the duplicate options that they offer. Thus they might end up with one large and one small that do not look like the other condos. If you can do an "Advanced Description Property Search" the key word is "Loft Village Subdivison". The actual search took me 1.64 seconds, according to the website search meter.
IMO

 

[InvSmith]

I agree the home purchase could be an issue.

Thinking again. Okay, my cowboy gets a prettier, slimmer, younger gal pregnant.....he has no time for me, it’s always the kid or baby momma. Now, she buys a duplex, she ain’t leaving. She looks like a “little girl”. Hmmm, what can end this situation once & for all. I don’t stand a chance with her in the pic. Things were good for us until she had to get pregnant. And on & on.
Speculation.

Completely agree. Jealousy would have to be an issue.

 

[Gardener1850]

Welcome.

This question is for everybody: do we have any credible, verifiable information that KK had a pilot's license?

I ask because I haven't kept up with all the threads and posts, either, so I may have missed something. I see a bunch of people speculating that KK flew herself to WP and back, but I don't know if there is anything upon which to base this speculation.

By the way, there aren't any general aviation airports in Teller County, and the nearest GA airports would be in Colorado Springs, Pueblo, Canõn City, or Buena Vista. It is possible that there are small landing strips on the South Park plains east of Wilkerson Pass, but it would be like landing a plane in the bush, and it would probably draw attention.

Speculation that PF being a farrier probably knows ranchers who have landing strips.....well, I haven't seen that up here. There are no "big ranches" like that, IMO. The only terrain that would allow it anywhere near Florissant is on, as I said, the flat land to the West, and that land is pretty useless for big ranching and has been broken up into relatively small parcels and was sold back in the 60's and 70's to people who wanted "land in Colorado." That's where the infamous Robert Dear had his compound.

Edited to add a link to a map of Colorado airports.
Colorado Airports Map —

We are not allowed to sleuth KK but the theory I proposed was NOT that KK had a pilot's license. My theory is that PF or KK know a third party with a pilot's license who was willing to fly KK to CO to for Thanksgiving weekend. This 3rd party pilot may be the person who needs protecting and the reason the arrest warrants were sealed and kept from PF for a time. A pilot friend or family member may have even done this thinking it was solely so PF's girlfriend KK could visit over Thanksgiving and he/she (the pilot) may have nothing to do with the crime other than transporting KK and the phone. That person would be an important witness, however. MOO.

And while we can not name names nor sleuth people not named as suspects here, this link is helpful for looking up who has a pilot's license (Kelsey is listed there): FAA Registry - Airmen - AirmenInquiry - Name Search

Everyone should do their own research and reach their own conclusions.

MOO.

 

[Artis]

Don't forget, too, that the duty of the prosecution is not to convict, but to see that justice is done. I think we can all agree on that.

That's in theory, not practice.

IMO, PF is guilty as hell because he lied to Kelsey's mother. That said, I hold the presumption of innocence as sacred and would not convict anyone without being 100% positive on the charge matching the evidence. I realize that most people don't hold themselves to that standard, though. What I would say on a website would not apply to a courtroom. Nobody is entitled to any kind of automatic deference because of the positions they hold (cops, prosecutors and, especially, not the FBI!) but juries do defer to authority, all the time. Not the jury they'll get in PF's community, though, I don't think. They're going to give him the benefit of the doubt and that's good for him. I'm looking forward to seeing what they've got on Frazee.

BTW, does anyone know what time Kelsey spoke with her mom, on Thanksgiving? Not sure if that was ever made clear (to the public).

 

[Noharg]

Ok, thanks. I thought it was since he could say he never said that, and if it wasn't in writing or recorded there would be no way to prove it. Anyone can just say someone said anything then! I guess it would be left up to a jury to decide. Imo

The Rs saying it is hearsay, I think.

 

[Artis]

Well at least one of them CK stated that KB has taken off before. So he was disparaging KB, with no evidence according to LE,and KB's family of that narrative.
So how about proof that "KB has taken off before"?

Yeah, I felt CK was trying to portray her as flaky and impulsive - the opposite of what her life seems to indicate. That said, PF could have told CK that. I suspect that people in PF's circle didn't know Kelsey well and would believe whatever PF said.

 

[Lady Justice21]

We are not allowed to sleuth KK but the theory I proposed was NOT that KK had a pilot's license. My theory is that PF or KK know a third party with a pilot's license who was willing to fly KK to CO to for Thanksgiving weekend. This 3rd party pilot may be the person who needs protecting and the reason the arrest warrants were sealed and kept from PF for a time. A pilot friend or family member may have even done this thinking it was solely so PF's girlfriend KK could visit over Thanksgiving and he/she (the pilot) may have nothing to do with the crime other than transporting KK and the phone. That person would be an important witness, however. MOO.

And while we can not name names nor sleuth people not named as suspects here, this link is helpful for looking up who has a pilot's license (Kelsey is listed there): FAA Registry - Airmen - AirmenInquiry - Name Search

Everyone should do their own research and reach their own conclusions.

MOO.

Well shoot! That was a 1 second fascinating search. I'll do more later. I totally dismissed this theory (sorry) until doing that.

MOO

 

[Artis]

PF was not the source of that specualtion. The first source that I saw was JG, who knew her as a household member. JG later withdrew it. Since they both have the same gramma, I would have to slap the coveted "TRUE" sticker on both the statement of speculation, and the withdrawal of same.
IMO

Thank you for the clarification. So, was it JG saying that PF said that to Kelsey's mom?

 

[Dave F.]

Thank you for the clarification. So, was it JG saying that PF said that to Kelsey's mom?

No, in my take on it, JG had not talked directly with CB at that time. CB never said it, that I know of. I believe that an aunt of both JG and KB, who lives in the midwest, might have said something like that in a social media alert to truckers. She later publicly admitted that she didn't have the facts right at that time. The whole B clan seems to me to be very independent individually, but close ranks quickly when it's needed.
IMO

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo all the nonsense from the R’s etc is likely clouding the minds of the general public to an extent...and if they have done anything, they have managed to pull guilt away from PF, toward KK and others...

 

[MassGuy]

Jmo all the nonsense from the R’s etc is likely clouding the minds of the general public to an extent...and if they have done anything, they have managed to pull guilt away from PF, toward KK and others...

That’s just public perception though, and it will have no bearing on the criminal case.

The case is being built in secrecy, and will rely on actual evidence.

We’re getting bits and pieces of dubious information from third parties. Law enforcement and the DA are likely annoyed, but it won’t change much.

We will likely see things much differently once we see the arrest affidavit.

 

[Mom24]

Jmo all the nonsense from the R’s etc is likely clouding the minds of the general public to an extent...and if they have done anything, they have managed to pull guilt away from PF, toward KK and others...

Because PF isn't talking, and all we're hearing about right now is KK, people are focused on her responsibility in this crime, but it in no way pulls any guilt off PF. KK wasn't in a relationship with PF, KK didn't malign KB's character and parenting all over town and KK didn't plan and seek KB's death. No one will forget how callous PF was to the Berreth family as they worried about whether KB was alive or dead, no one will forget that he refused to allow them to see that little baby and they'll also not forget his callous behavior in not even attending one press conference or even expressing concern for KB. So they haven't shifted the blame, they're just adding another set of blame to another person.

 

[Mom24]

.

We will likely see things much differently, once we see the arrest affidavit.

RSBM
That's so true, I'm always stunned at what comes out during the trial.