CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #32 *ARREST*

[Auntie Cipation]

I've got Daniel Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow on audiobook <snip for space>

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Unfortunately, the audiobook is both long and dry, and I didn't finish it. I need to go back and listen to it again.

The paper version of this book is also long and dry, and, like you, I only got partway through. But the part I did read rocked my world -- opened up new insights for me in a major way. Life-changing. I need to go back and finish as well.

 

[bonjoviblonde]

I hope we can all agree that PF's crime, if the charges against him are true, pales in comparison to CW's crime. I hope there's never another Watts case.

I wasn’t comparing the actual crime.

 

[Charlot123]

Lots of unknowns.

1. I think it’s easy for people like PF to disassociate a mother from a child.

Purely IMO, but I’ve always wondered just how excited he was about having a child. I’m not sure he necessarily took care of the baby as much as he did because he was a wonderful father, I believe it was more convenience that his job allowed him to and I think mama F helped a lot.

2. We don’t know that he truly wants the baby. He was telling people that KB was crazy and going to harm the baby, yet IF that were true a concerned caring father would have taken steps through the courts to protect the baby, IMO. PF chose murder as a solution. I don’t get the feeling the baby is around because he truly loves her, I could be wrong, but I just don’t see it. I think he thought he may get money if she was KB’s beneficiary once KB was dead. MOO.

3. I wish we knew the answers to all of this. I don’t believe PF was the person that helped KB with all of this, but I could be wrong and maybe at that point in time he was putting on one heck of an act if he was helping and caring to KB. I tend to think she was forced to rely on herself ALOT.

We know nada about PF. However, I would not be quite surprised if his mom was on his case to get married because she “wanted to raise his kids”. Moms sometimes say this. I doubt that PF ever wanted to get married. But having a baby K was a great way to resolve this issue. His mom gets the grandbaby, he is free from the pressure to settle down. Heck, he could have stayed single all his life and avoided nagging and questions. In fact, not having KB around and having the baby would be like, “I don’t want to get married because I don’t want my kid to grow up with a stepmom”. His mom would be happy raising the granddaughter minus potential squabbles with DIL, and PF would be free.

 

[Charlot123]

I hope we can all agree that PF's crime, if the charges against him are true, pales in comparison to CW's crime. I hope there's never another Watts case.

By the result, yes. Surely. But CW, even if he planned, did it in a haste and very fast. I sometimes wonder if he planned at all.

PF did plan. He solicited it for three times. And while about CW I can feel that he was not in the right mind doing it, and hope that one day he would feel remorse and miss the kids, PF comes across as much more cold and calculating. They still can’t find anything except an enamored accomplice, right?

 

[Charlot123]

I agree with you there should be a law against desecration of human remains that carries a heavy prison sentence too.

In lieu of yet non-existing (and necessary) law, if KB’s remains are found in the landfill, PF should be legally charged for seriously violating sanitary rules of the city.

 

[Charlot123]

My very first theory was he thought Kelsey might be moving on with another man. I'm not sure how I feel about that now.

Or, totally opposite. PF finding another rodeo queen of sorts. He probably did not tell her about KB. Relationship is developing, and the lady is insisting on being introduced to the family. A child is one thing, a child’s mom living 15 min away is somewhat different. PF could have been caught in own lies, like SP. moo

 

[mtnlites]

I wasn’t comparing the actual crime.

I knew what you meant when I read your post.

Re: @BillCarson's response...I don't think it's fair to say that any crime "pales" in comparison to another. People are dead, that's bad enough. Should one family say, "I guess I shouldn't hurt as bad as that other family over there because their crime was worse than ours"? I don't think so. In both cases you have people who have lost their daughter. Women's lives were ended because someone made the choice to take those lives. True, in the Watts' crime you have the compounded loss of children, but KB's family will also never see her again. In child loss we often say that there is NO "at least." There's no bright side to losing a child. There is little to no solace in comparing your loss to someone else's and coming out on top. This is not a contest anyone wants to win.

 

[Artis]

The new place is my thought as well. One theory I have is that PF refused to leave his mother's (inheritance issue?) and KB wanted to start her new life. Maybe she got the place in hope that PF would see her side and join her at some point. Distance does things to people, and they start to grow apart... No one seems to have a concrete answer on their relationship status at the end, this is just my guess on how it could have fallen apart.

And while he no longer wanted Kelsey, he wanted that baby and so does his mother. For him, baby K may be nothing more than a possession but SA may really love her and could have made it known that he HAD to have custody of that child in the event things didn't work out with Kelsey because, down the road, Kelsey might go back home or marry some other guy. SA was used to having baby K around, a lot, and is probably very attached. Betcha she sees baby K as part of her clan, in a very real sense, and wants to raise her on that ranch. PF could could go about his business, as he always had, and Ma would be happy raising baby K, with PF's sister helping and PF keeps on living the bachelor life. Obviously, nothing like that could ever happen with Kelsey in the picture. I don't see this as anything much more complicated than that, as a motive. Kelsey was a complication and made life more difficult for him so get rid of her and no worries about custody fights, out of state moves or a stepfather entering the picture. People commit murder for reasons like that all of the time.

If it's true that PF really solicited KKL to do it, I don't think it had anything to do with his wanting to be with KKL. He would have just used her to accomplish what he wanted done.

 

[InvSmith]

After seeing PF double shackled she is singing to get the best deal she possibly can. Oh, one is tough until your freedom is threatened. She is discussing every misdeed she has done in her life, his life, and anyone else she knows including the postman.

 

[Artis]

Isn’t KK also KL? Which I thought was K. Lee?

And here I've been thinking this was all a bunch of nonsense. THAT is uncanny.

 

[InvSmith]

I wanted to reply and thank everyone for their well thought out responses and comments, but there were so many when I got back that I didn't quote them all. The reason I've been following this thread is because you all seem to care so much and it's generally lovely. I understand that tensions are running high, especially when there seems to be little momentum towards justice for KB. I also wasn't trying to call anyone out for being intentionally sexist. I do feel that its engrained in society, and I try to point it out when I think I see it.

Also, and just a thought, but I keep thinking that there were never supposed to be any texts from KBs phone. I think PF called KK in a panic and she drove for a bit in a futile effort to cover her tracks and sent the texts. Thats why there were no pings until ID.

All of this, just opinions... Thanks again lovelies!

The panic is questionable because the death was on 11/22, and the three text or more were on 11/25. KL had to travel a significant distance with this phone with a high probability that was turned off by her or him on 11/22. I also would like this witness to be of good character for the prosecution and hopefully that is the case. I just cannot get there so far with the limited information we have.

 

[Tora Gahan]

Distance is definitely PF's BFF. I mean, dude is a complete numbskull, so it's hard to credit him with this level of self-awareness, but he seems to have cottoned on to the fact that the best way he could attract women would be by approaching them from a distance. That way, he could present them with a blurred/out-of-focus image of himself just long enough to get them invested in the "relationship" with him. Then they get up close and personal, clearly see him for who/what he really is, and it ain't a pretty picture.

He would be physically attractive to a lot of women who saw his profile on a website, if that is indeed how he and KB initially "met." He can probably compose simple sentences containing single-syllable words, which likely gets interpreted by a lot of women as PF being the "strong, silent" type.

I suspect the bloom comes off the rose once women actually spend any substantial amount of actual face-to-face time with him (not to be confused with Face-Time).

I'd imagine his mother popping her head in the door to his room to remind him it's time to get ready for bed and to go brush his teeth also dampens the flames quickly.

ALL JMO.

I got a good giggle out of this, but agree 100%. I don't find him attractive myself....that photo would need to be quite blurry/out of focus!! Haha

 

[InvSmith]

Doesn’t some step toward moving forward to do it have to be taken? I could’ve sworn something beyond just asking had to be done. Maybe I dreamed that??

No, you are correct. The person soliciting has to take a genuine step demonstrating their intent to carry out the plan. Usually it is an offer of money passed. In this case, it looks like the detailed planning was the solicitation.

 

[Artis]

We know nada about PF. However, I would not be quite surprised if his mom was on his case to get married because she “wanted to raise his kids”. Moms sometimes say this. I doubt that PF ever wanted to get married. But having a baby K was a great way to resolve this issue. His mom gets the grandbaby, he is free from the pressure to settle down. Heck, he could have stayed single all his life and avoided nagging and questions. In fact, not having KB around and having the baby would be like, “I don’t want to get married because I don’t want my kid to grow up with a stepmom”. His mom would be happy raising the granddaughter minus potential squabbles with DIL, and PF would be free.

While a few pages back in this thread, I made a couple posts while catching up and said just about the exact same thing. Reminds of someone saying that PF struck them as a "simple guy" and, in that respect, I would say he wanted to keep thing as simple as possible.

 

[InvSmith]

I'm postive that if a man truly loved a child that he would not separate the child from their mom.
Selfish love isn't real love. It's a possession.

Real love of a father is putting his family before himself. Frankly, all love is this. In all angles of this case, we are not seeing any member of his family being put before his self including his long distance relationship. He really has a demonstrated issue with emotionally and now physically hurting women.

 

[mustloveco]

And here I've been thinking this was all a bunch of nonsense. THAT is uncanny.

Maybe KKL wanted the baby....

 

[Mimi in London]

If it's true that PF really solicited KKL to do it, I don't think it had anything to do with his wanting to be with KKL. He would have just used her to accomplish what he wanted done.

RSBM

Oh goodness, no, it never crossed my mind he ACTUALLY wanted to be with KK. But he’d have done a great job stringing her along until she believed getting rid of Kelsey/the evidence was the means to them being together. IMO

 

[Seattle1]

This is a good example of why we have to be careful with citing MSM as gospel. DM is an approved source, and I agree that they seem to post about news events sooner than other outlets, probably because they aren't as careful with their reporting. While their news stories often turn out to be true, that is not always the case.

According to this article, LE has already started searching the landfill. However, based upon the number of reporters at the WM facility yesterday afternoon, I feel very confident that we would have visual evidence of the search if LE was really present. So according to WS rules, we could use this article to "prove" that the digging started today, when it seems pretty clear that it did not.

I'll be happy to stand corrected if I have missed news to the contrary.

Officials now searching for missing mom Kelsey Berreth at a Colorado landfill | Daily Mail Online

I disagree with your analysis that because you see no visual evidence of "digging," doesn't mean that DM and/or MSM has it wrong, again. In the link you provided, DM clearly cites
ABC News was the first to report this new development. Waste Management's Anne Spitza has referred any questions about the landfill search to the district attorney’s office. Most important here is that all MSM have confirmed that CBI asked to search the landfill, as part of KB's case. MOO

Search for missing Colorado mom expands to landfill

 

[Seattle1]

CBI asks to search landfill in El Paso County as part of Kelsey Berreth case

[...]
News 5 spoke with John San Agustin, a former investigator in the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office, who offered context on the investigation and searching a landfill.

He searched the exact same property during his career, calling the task ahead for investigators daunting.

“A couple weeks worth of trash was about 20 feet tall and about, you know, maybe 50 by 50 yards. It’s just something that is so large,” San Agustin said.

He said his first directive would be to consult with Waste Management to narrow their search, hoping the company keeps records on where trash from certain days is put into the landfill. Then, San Agustin said he would hope to confirm or deny a connection between the Midway Landfill and the transfer station in Divide, where Frazee was spotted just days before his arrest.

When asked about the timing of this possible search in the scope of a weeks-long investigation, San Agustin said investigators are either following up for something, or they’ve received new information. As for what they could be looking for, San Agustin said it could be a number of things — remains, technology and/or other items perhaps used in the alleged crime.

Again, the prosecution and law enforcement agencies involved decline to comment on the specifics of the case.

 

[Vandalay Industries]

I am stuck on this time line.
Authorities turn attention to Colorado landfill for Kelsey Berreth case

LE has solid evidence to present to DA to warrant these charges.
https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...terest/2018CR330/001/Redacted C&I 18CR330.pdf

During this time, based on the interview by the R's, FBI had been in contact with KK in early part of Dec or later part of Nov. It is then, that FBI collected more information/evidence that warrants the solicitation charges. IIRC, there was a court document that states a protection order. I can't seem to find that right now, but my initial thought was to protect KK, as she was leaking info.

I find it odd that with as much media presence that not ONE outlet has caught a glimpse of her anywhere. We have seen the media outlets outside her home in ID. We know she has elementary school age children, in which "she was actively involved in their lives" but now, poof.. nothing. Leads me to believe they have her securely tucked away somewhere and the solicitation charges are directly related to KK.

I tend to really like the fact that we are not getting more info ONLY bc I hope that means the evidence is mounting more and the case is becoming concrete against PF.

Selfishly, I wish we knew more, but am having faith in the 'system' and processes.