CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #37 *ARREST*

[acutename]

Ok, I'll go ahead. We know he has a complete dispersal sale in early Jan. CB spoke of PF's financial problems with cattle prices being down so I thought I'd go back to La Junta Livestock Commission official fb page and see if he's sold any cattle since Sept. I found that the week before the murder, PF sold 62 head of cattle.

La Junta Livestock Commission, Inc.
November 16, 2018

Patrick Frazee 39 blk & red strs 588 lbs 147.00
Patrick Frazee 23 blk & red hfrs 548 lbs 140.00

I'm not sure if I'm calculated this right but taking total lbs times price per pounds equals $166992.

I'm wondering if KB invested in his cattle program and if this sale was a contention point. Was she wanting her share?

If someone has time, maybe they could go further back to see his sales history for the past couple of years. To see if this sale was a one-off, or if it's a usual thing for cattle ranchers. It could be typical to sell steers in the fall, or it could be that he was raising money just before the murder.

this was discussed before and some suggested that with his leased grazing land, which would be snow covered in the winter, it would be typical to feed cattle during the other seasons and sell at a profit (if possible) before the winter

 

[Snowsnake]

I might have to backtrack on my previous post about his cattle sales. It appears Nov is when he sales his steers. Ranchers sell off steers and keep the cows to grow their herd. (steers are castrated males used for beef, cows are girls that can have more babies)

Nov 2017
Patrick Frazee 10 bwf & blk strs 549 lbs 177.00
Patrick Frazee 26 mix strs 637 lbs 153.50
Patrick Frazee 6 bwf & blk hfrs 477 lbs 146.00
Patrick Frazee 13 bbf hfrs 565 lbs 143.00

total 55 steers.

You are on the right trail just the math is off. The figure of 177.00 is $1.77 per pound times the number of head. Any way you cut it he doesn’t have a lot of money coming in with a lot of expenses. He is not very good at rodeo and that sport or hobby costs a lot of money.

 

[MemPat]

I'm sure I'm not the first to say this but maybe PF lost it and killed KB just because he wanted to have sex right that minute and she didn't. Maybe he had been deprived for some time. How often on crime shows we've heard that story!

(I haven't forgotten that he considered killing her before.)

I'm still not convinced they didn't break up a long time ago. Maybe PF came off as charming during the online romance, then was less appealing in person?

Maybe the appeal of a cowboy is greater when the Internet stands between the girl and the smells? A few rolls in the hay and she was over it?

MOO

 

[sun16]

maybe she had already loaned him money early in the season and he owed her money?

This would be easy for LE to find out by looking at her banking records for the past 2 years.

 

[acutename]

I work in life insurance. MANY companies disqualify pilots because it's not worth the risk to insure them. So it's also not farfetched at all that she didn't have life insurance coverage. I won't say she doesn't have it, but I'm not going to assume she does have it either.

since you are in the business, could you get a "regular" policy, i.e. one that would specifically NOT cover aviation accidents, but would cover general life/health/other accidents?

 

[riolove77]

The world is a callous place and this is a touchy subject. I don't eat animals so my own positions are not mainstream. Of course, I hate rodeos because they hurt animals. It's just a different breed of people that get into that stuff. I read that KK roped and tied up goats. I love goats and think anyone who ropes and ties them up should have that done to them - just for the entertainment like with they do to animals. I'd say that being into that lifestyle would mean KK isn't a sensitive or empathetic person so would not have been put off PF and his "rough" handling of animals. I think they're two peas in a pod and her only regret is getting caught. If the only role she played was swiping Kelsey's phone and sending texts in her name (which I do not believe), I think she should do five years in prison so I'm kind of mental about all of this, I'll admit. I am really pissed she's gotten such a sweet deal because I think she's evil.

Didn’t think you and I would have anything in common, given our different opinions about law enforcement and prosecutors, but I don’t eat animals either!!!

Now that I know KK ropes goats I hate her even more.

 

[acutename]

I'm sure I'm not the first to say this but maybe PF lost it and killed KB just because he wanted to have sex right that minute and she didn't. Maybe he had been deprived for some time. How often on crime shows we've heard that story!

(I haven't forgotten that he considered killing her before.)

I'm still not convinced they didn't break up a long time ago. Maybe PF came off as charming during the online romance, then was less appealing in person?

Maybe the appeal of a cowboy is greater when the Internet stands between the girl and the smells?

MOO

the problem I have when discussing PF is that some scenarios have him as losing control and just acting out (fair enough), but that person probably does not solicit another's help 3x for months and then do all the cell phone stuff and disappear the body. So is he impulsive or conniving? One does not preclude the other, but...

 

[InvSmith]

<modsnipped broken quote>

This is just awful for us cityslickers from the East Coast where our Southern Gentleman smell gentlemanly.

 

[InvSmith]

something bizarre that has not been addressed... I asked a long time ago where KB was when she was 7-9 mos pregnant and shortly after the birth when she would have needed help. In any normal situation, even if the designated "in-laws" did not like each other, they usually would help out the pregnant woman and the new baby. In this case, it does not seem that the "in-laws" had ever even met each other. there is some kind of disconnect between the families even before the murder IMO.

I wanted to ask this. I would have wanted my mom to help but had both helping me out.

 

[Hatch]

This is my question but not for Kapua's amazing list.
What is SF feeling about KK at this moment? My 'enquiring mind' would really like to know

I do not know about KK, but I bet she was not fond of KB.

 

[UnicornDragon]

since you are in the business, could you get a "regular" policy, i.e. one that would specifically NOT cover aviation accidents, but would cover general life/health/other accidents?

Possibly? Not easily, not cheaply, underwriting will be a nightmare.

 

[InvSmith]

All while four people in Idaho knew her murder was being planned and one showed up for it.

I think this is a really good summary point. Four people discussed KB being killed by PF then it happened and one even showed up and carried the victim's phone.

 

[srg]

something bizarre that has not been addressed... I asked a long time ago where KB was when she was 7-9 mos pregnant and shortly after the birth when she would have needed help. In any normal situation, even if the designated "in-laws" did not like each other, they usually would help out the pregnant woman and the new baby. In this case, it does not seem that the "in-laws" had ever even met each other. there is some kind of disconnect between the families even before the murder IMO.

I agree. Not that we know these things for a fact, but I sensed that not only did PFs mom not know KBs parents but I wonder if she actually knew KB. Did PF not tell his mom about KB until after baby was born and then a made up story about her?

Disconnect between extended family members and in-laws happens all the time and isn’t a crime, obviously. May just add to the picture and explain weird stuff and behaviors (like PFs mom requesting custody of the baby after her son is arrested for the murder of baby’s mom).

 

[BingoBongo]

the problem I have when discussing PF is that some scenarios have him as losing control and just acting out (fair enough), but that person probably does not solicit another's help 3x for months and then do all the cell phone stuff and disappear the body. So is he impulsive or conniving? One does not preclude the other, but...

Not mutually exclusive. Building rage, finally something causes a snap.

 

[MyBelle]

I work in life insurance. MANY companies disqualify pilots because it's not worth the risk to insure them. So it's also not farfetched at all that she didn't have life insurance coverage. I won't say she doesn't have it, but I'm not going to assume she does have it either.

I'm going to assume she has it as a company benefit. How many professional pilots working for defense contractors have crashed planes lately? I think there are also companies that specialize in professional pilot insurance.

JMO

 

[Artis]

That kind of theory is what crime writers make their living creating. The reading makes for a lot shorter plane ride, but I've never seen one of them solve a case. They just analyze and theorize.
There are sociopaths who have literally no built-in anti-kill mechanism. There is no personality disorder because there is no personality behind the mask. It's cold, it's cruel, it's empty, it's evil, and it's very real. IMO

In the DSM, it is classified as a personality disorder. There is no diagnoses of "sociopath" which is just shorthand for Anti Social Personality Disorder. There's also a lot of disagreement, within the mental health profession, over whether a sociopath and psychopath are the same. Robert Hare, who devised the the most commonly used test to detect psychopathy, says they are not the same. IOW, not all ASPD/sociopaths are psychopaths. But, anyway, these are disorders of lack, in that the personalities lack something which makes a healthy human. In the cluster B disorders, they all lack conscience and empathy.

I read that for the next DSM they're thinking of doing away with personality disorders, all together, and just using traits in diagnoses. That makes more sense because the traits of the various disorders overlap so much and every individual is so different. Currently, it seems popular to call every disordered or despicable person a narcissist but that's just lazy. Some sociopaths can have narcissistic traits but many don't. An interesting place to get a look at all this is at Psych Forums and Sociopath World. Reading over at those places I found out how these various disordered individuals hate each other, as in many sociopaths can't stand the narcs and their attention seeking. It's quite eye opening and some of their posts are very scary. Many of them know exactly what they are. Some are proud of it and some struggle to keep it under control.

Hope that's not considered off topic because I find this all relevant when talking about killers. Unfortunately, we rarely get those types of reports on perps so we're left speculating. Further, professionals can't even agree as was the case with Ted Kaczinski.

Once someone commits cold blooded murder, I think it's a no brainer to conclude they have a PD and/or a combination of PD traits.

 

[jewelsmac]

I don’t think they happened to be driving at the time law enforcement decided to initiate the arrest, I think law enforcement initiated the arrest because they happened to be driving.

It’s safer for all involved, to arrest people when they are not in their homes. For this reason, law enforcement frequently waits until a suspect is driving.

I don’t think they were fleeing.

Absolutely, better to be outside, with lots of witnesses.

 

[BingoBongo]

In the DSM, it is classified as a personality disorder. There is no diagnoses of "sociopath" which is just shorthand for Anti Social Personality Disorder. There's also a lot of disagreement, within the mental health profession, over whether a sociopath and psychopath are the same. Robert Hare, who devised the the most commonly used test to detect psychopathy, says they are not the same. IOW, not all ASPD/sociopaths are psychopaths. But, anyway, these are disorders of lack, in that the personalities lack something which makes a healthy human. In the cluster B disorders, they all lack conscience and empathy.

I read that for the next DSM they're thinking of doing away with personality disorders, all together, and just using traits in diagnoses. That makes more sense because the traits of the various disorders overlap so much and every individual is so different. Currently, it seems popular to call every disordered or despicable person a narcissist but that's just lazy. Some sociopaths can have narcissistic traits but many don't. An interesting place to get a look at all this is at Psych Forums and Sociopath World. Reading over at those places I found out how these various disordered individuals hate each other, as in many sociopaths can't stand the narcs and their attention seeking. It's quite eye opening and some of their posts are very scary. Many of them know exactly what they are. Some are proud of it and some struggle to keep it under control.

Hope that's not considered off topic because I find this all relevant when talking about killers. Unfortunately, we rarely get those types of reports on perps so we're left speculating. Further, professionals can't even agree as was the case with Ted Kaczinski.

Once someone commits cold blooded murder, I think it's a no brainer to conclude they have a PD and/or a combination of PD traits.

Agree!

But don't all PD's fall along a spectrum? We all have narcissistic behavior, to some degree, but when it lacks any empathy, it can be dangerous. I think that's what we often see in these murder suspects, narcissism to the point of total lack of empathy, falling into sociopathy, then psychopathy.

 

[MemPat]

I'm going to assume she has it as a company benefit. How many professional pilots working for defense contractors have crashed planes lately? I think there are also companies that specialize in professional pilot insurance.

JMO

You're right. I googled it. They even offer it for unaffiliated pilots.

 

[Hatch]

The only motive I can think of is money. KB was worth more to PF dead than alive. I've wondered all along if PF had taken out an insurance policy on her after the baby's birth. It has been said that PF and KB were some kind of business partners. Perhaps that business wasn't doing well.


JMO

I have even toyed with idea PF lured KB to CO to produce a baby for he and KK to raise together, I know that is thinking a mile away from the box, but say KK could not have any children and they wanted to be together but PF wanted a child of his own and they hatched a plan. We have been to Egypt and back with our maybe's.