CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #37 *ARREST*

[?mysterian?]

I am looking at the math. We know there are three properties in the F family. Looks like some have equipment and extra buildings and vehicles. Then there are competitions and expenses. Then you have the steers, etc plus upkeep. PF did not have full-time consistent employment and his mom is retired on a nursing salary. He had a private attorney and they need one for custody and the wrongful death case. Normal living expenses on top of all this. Where does all the money come from? Even if from a divorce or death of a family member, it is significant. In a case, you do examine the money of the defendant.

I don't remember reading anything definite about PF's income from his farrier business, just remember discussion in earlier threads about how much potential income he might possibly make, and how it could be a cash business, and it be possible that that income therefore might be under-reported. Without seeing an appointment calendar/tax returns/court papers determining eligibility for public defender, it seems impossible to determine his financial situation, IMO.

From the positive reports we've gotten about DA May, I would think both PF's and KB's financials were investigated.

 

[srg]

Absolutely true. The thing is, some of that anecdotal information about his rage, shows that it was present when he was likely sober.

So it’s possible that he used alcohol and drugs and became enraged when he did so.

It wasn’t a requirement though.

Correct. Let’s assume that PF meets criteria for ASPD, then it’s extremely likely he has a comorbid substance abuse disorder.

For accurate ASPD dx PFs behavior can’t only be happening or explained by instances of substance abuse. Substance of choice sure escalates rage or whatever the problematic issue is. But isn’t the driving force.

The anectodal info that MassGuy refers to above fits with PF’s core psychopathology. Pervasive pattern across different situations. Now if you add drug of choice to that...

Also, I know there’s been posts about sociopathy and psychopathy today. To clarify, the only official DSM dx related to these is Antisocial Personality Disorder. Psychopathy is now a specifier under ASPD (more dangerous person), sociopathy is not.

 

[Hatch]

Ok, I'll go ahead. We know he has a complete dispersal sale in early Jan. CB spoke of PF's financial problems with cattle prices being down so I thought I'd go back to La Junta Livestock Commission official fb page and see if he's sold any cattle since Sept. I found that the week before the murder, PF sold 62 head of cattle.

La Junta Livestock Commission, Inc.
November 16, 2018

Patrick Frazee 39 blk & red strs 588 lbs 147.00
Patrick Frazee 23 blk & red hfrs 548 lbs 140.00

I'm not sure if I'm calculated this right but taking total lbs times price per pounds equals $166992.

I'm wondering if KB invested in his cattle program and if this sale was a contention point. Was she wanting her share?

If someone has time, maybe they could go further back to see his sales history for the past couple of years. To see if this sale was a one-off, or if it's a usual thing for cattle ranchers. It could be typical to sell steers in the fall, or it could be that he was raising money just before the murder.

The correct amount would be $51,355.64 total cattle sale.
EX: 588 lbs x1.47= 864.36 x 39 head =$33,710.04 same formula applies for the 23 head= $17,645.60 being a cattle rancher if cattle were 140.00 lb we would be in high cotton.

 

[Artis]

Psychopaths are the ones that are charismatic and charming, sociopaths are actually diagnosed as "antisocial personality disorder" they may form bonds with some people but they often lack control and ability to perform the charade of complying with society that a psychopath does.

Further I know we like to assume all murderers are either sociopaths or psychopaths, but it is actually a clinical definition and requires meeting several criteria. However, the following must be present before the age of 15 in order to be diagnosed:

• Repeated violations of the law
• Pervasive lying and deception
• Physical aggressiveness
• Reckless disregard for safety of self or others
• Consistent irresponsibility in work and family environments
• Lack of remorse

PF may indeed meet these requirements, however if I recall he had no previous run ins with the law, though that may have been his family being connected and being able to hide them. With or without the title he appears selfish and uncontrolled, and deserves the penalties coming his way once convicted. I just think we often assign this title as if it somehow means the neighbor next door, or my buddy from high school will not murder, only sociopaths/psychopaths do.

Obviously, MOO
Psychopath vs. Sociopath: What’s the Difference? | HealthyPlace

Thanks and I am aware of what you've written. I disagree with it, though, and there is disagreement in the mental health profession, too. Add to that that DSM gets updated and changed. There's a lot of debate about those bullet points in that some sociopaths are highly successful and have not been in trouble with the law or society. In fact, some of them write the laws and are pillars of society. Ultimately and all of these labels and classifications aside, we as humans need to learn about the subject so we can get batter at identifying these dangerous people. They won't all kill you but they're all capable of doing serious damage.

 

[Hatch]

I don't remember reading anything definite about PF's income from his farrier business, just remember discussion in earlier threads about how much potential income he might possibly make, and how it could be a cash business, and it be possible that that income therefore might be under-reported. Without seeing an appointment calendar/tax returns/court papers determining eligibility for public defender, it seems impossible to determine his financial situation, IMO.

From the positive reports we've gotten about DA May, I would think both PF's and KB's financials were investigated.

You are not issued a 1099 Form on cattle sales, with that said if you have a lender ( which many farmers and rancher s do) when you sale those cattle that has to be reported and the lender paid off first and foremost. If you keep the funds from cattle sales and the cattle are mortgaged you get in big big cow patties behind bars. When the funds are paid to the lender then a form is sent to the IRS at that point the rancher will pay income tax on his cattle sales.

 

[GHgal]

Given the info provided in the wrongful death claim, it sounds like there had been at least a few instances of physical or emotional abuse. Sadly, I suspect, as with most domestic violence situations, the victim does not tell anyone about the abuse or reach out to authorities. Therefore, the abuse could have been much worse than any of her family and friends knew. Perhaps she started threatening to end the relationship months ago, which is when he started the solicitations. As we all know, the most dangerous time for a domestic violence victim is when they are attempting to leave the relationship.

 

[Hatch]

I might have to backtrack on my previous post about his cattle sales. It appears Nov is when he sales his steers. Ranchers sell off steers and keep the cows to grow their herd. (steers are castrated males used for beef, cows are girls that can have more babies)

Nov 2017
Patrick Frazee 10 bwf & blk strs 549 lbs 177.00
Patrick Frazee 26 mix strs 637 lbs 153.50
Patrick Frazee 6 bwf & blk hfrs 477 lbs 146.00
Patrick Frazee 13 bbf hfrs 565 lbs 143.00

total 55 steers.

You are correct but it is actually $1.77 per lb very confusing the way the weigh bills read.

 

[Hatch]

the problem I have when discussing PF is that some scenarios have him as losing control and just acting out (fair enough), but that person probably does not solicit another's help 3x for months and then do all the cell phone stuff and disappear the body. So is he impulsive or conniving? One does not preclude the other, but...

ebm: unnecessary speculation on my part not yours acutename

 

[srg]

I think she is old enough to have a nightmare if she saw it, of course she did not know what was happening but it would have been violence she most likely had never seen or heard. My prayer is she was not present.

So true what you’re saying that baby K might have nightmares.

If baby K witnessed the murder, she will most likely have implicit but not explicit memory of this. Meaning, this trauma happened at a pre-verbal age so the memory will be stored as a visual memory, and in her body. Stored as stress and hyper vigilance.

She may never verbally express what she saw, but my guess is she will have flasbacks. She might be triggered in situations that resemble the original traumatic event (e.g., blood, loved one in pain or fear, screaming, conflict in relationships, whatever weapon was used, the sound of the door unlocking at a duplex, or dare I say the smell of cinnamon rolls).

 

[Hatch]

I don't remember reading anything definite about PF's income from his farrier business, just remember discussion in earlier threads about how much potential income he might possibly make, and how it could be a cash business, and it be possible that that income therefore might be under-reported. Without seeing an appointment calendar/tax returns/court papers determining eligibility for public defender, it seems impossible to determine his financial situation, IMO.

From the positive reports we've gotten about DA May, I would think both PF's and KB's financials were investigated.

Is it customary to require a financial statement from a suspect and the victim? Other than a life insurance inquiry .@riolove77

 

[Artis]

However we know this DA is quite thorough, he dots all his i's and crosses all his t's.

I'm sure if she were involved to a greater extent this sweet plea-deal she's been given would not exist.

I'm sure that Dan May/LE have satisfied themselves of all her involvement which is why they gave her the deal.

I think KK was a willing patsy but not a mastermind.

MOO

I don't know anything about the DA or his reputation. The only lawyers I know much about are those in national political news. All I see is a woman who was in possession of a murder victim's phone and used it to delay the discovery of her murder and I don't think the deal was tough enough. The only way that makes sense to me is if they've got next to nothing on PF and the whole case rides on her testimony but most here seem to think that isn't the case and that solid evidence was found in Kelsey's home. We'll see, I guess.

At this point, I feel like I'm just griping. That she had Kelsey's phone and knew she'd been murdered is a HUGE deal, to me, and I'm pissed. I don't believe KK would have ever reported Kelsey's murder on her own. She's an accomplice, imo.

 

[Hatch]

So true what you’re saying that baby K might have nightmares.

If baby K witnessed the murder, she will most likely have implicit but not explicit memory of this. Meaning, this trauma happened at a pre-verbal age so the memory will be stored as a visual memory, and in her body. Stored as stress and hyper vigilance.

She may never verbally express what she saw, but my guess is she will have flasbacks. She might be triggered in situations that resemble the original traumatic event (e.g., blood, loved one in pain or fear, screaming, conflict in relationships, whatever weapon was used, the sound of the door unlocking at a duplex, or dare I say the smell of cinnamon rolls).

I was leaning towards her having latent memories of events, as a child not quite 2 I have vague memories of the upset, fussing n fighting of my parents before they divorced , that is what bothers me about Baby K maybe being present.

 

[Hatch]

I think this is a really good summary point. Four people discussed KB being killed by PF then it happened and one even showed up and carried the victim's phone.

If I was Kelsey's parents and financially sound I would have those wrongful death suits being processed one after the other.

 

[Hatch]

Given the info provided in the wrongful death claim, it sounds like there had been at least a few instances of physical or emotional abuse. Sadly, I suspect, as with most domestic violence situations, the victim does not tell anyone about the abuse or reach out to authorities. Therefore, the abuse could have been much worse than any of her family and friends knew. Perhaps she started threatening to end the relationship months ago, which is when he started the solicitations. As we all know, the most dangerous time for a domestic violence victim is when they are attempting to leave the relationship.

Wish I could agree 10 x 10. I think KB was in a very bad situation, possibly trying to get out as easily as possible and it did not work out for her. PF would rather see her dead than to face the fact and scrutiny of friends and associates that she left him. IMHO

 

[srg]

I was leaning towards her having a latent memory of events, as a child not quite 2 I have vague memories of the upset, fussing n fighting of my parents before they divorced , that is what bothers me about Baby K maybe being present.

I think we mean the same thing, but we typically refer to it as implicit memory is psychology. But I guess you can say latent too Main point is, implicit memory doesn’t rely on conscious thought.

 

[Artis]

I believe the timing is crucial as well. Did KK tell M that before KB was dead, or AFTER?

I'm gonna guess that it was after the deed was done. The question is did she say it because she really felt that or because she was trying to make herself look horrified and innocent to her confidant in order to cover her own behind?

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

I, too, hope Kelsey's remains are recovered but I want a trial because I want his accomplice to be exposed. Further, I hope it gets so heated that she trips up, blows her sweetheart deal and does a few years, herself.

ITA.

 

[Hatch]

I think we mean the same thing, but we typically refer to it as implicit memory is psychology. But I guess you can say latent too Main point is, implicit memory doesn’t rely on conscious thought.

Thanks for your professional clarification.

 

[1mtroyal]

You are correct but it is actually $1.77 per lb very confusing the way the weigh bills read.

Can you go back a few years when cattle were probably at record high. My recollection is that they are down about a fourth from several years ago. And that would have been around a $15,000 loss for his dispersion sale.

 

[Artis]

I am looking at the math. We know there are three properties in the F family. Looks like some have equipment and extra buildings and vehicles. Then there are competitions and expenses. Then you have the steers, etc plus upkeep. PF did not have full-time consistent employment and his mom is retired on a nursing salary. He had a private attorney and they need one for custody and the wrongful death case. Normal living expenses on top of all this. Where does all the money come from? Even if from a divorce or death of a family member, it is significant. In a case, you do examine the money of the defendant.

I think Trudi said farriers can make good money so remember he also had that income.