CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #46*ARREST*

[MsBetsy]

To me there is a difference between something in the affidavit that says, According to MG the gun was in a different condition than she left it. They don't say however that we were then able to verify that it was in fact to be the case.

They do however say things like KK said she was at KB condo on such and such a date and We (LE) were able to verify this through phone records.

KK told us that PF called her and told her she had a mess to clean up and based on cell data we were able to verify that she was in CO on such and such dates.

KK told us where PF took KB body and we were able to verify that with cadaver dogs. etc etc

There are statements in the affidavit that have not necessarily been verified by LE in my opinion. But to say none of it has is not accurate in my opinion.

True. LE likely could not verify that the gun was in a different condition. It was just a statement made by a witness.
But I do think much of the important information is backed up with evidence. They can't confirm the use of the baseball bat either unless they find some of the remnants. I don't know how completely a wooden bat would burn. Imo

 

[skycountry]

Well, since "dad with a phone" is not considered MSM (as KK can NOT speak to them), how about we send him to find KK and get her to clarify I need to get off this merry-go-round! Today!!

The wording is throwing us all off, I am going with what LE stated, KK said he "put" it in the fire, not threw it in the fire.

 

[susiQ]

True. LE likely could not verify that the gun was in a different condition. It was just a statement made by a witness.
But I do think much of the important information is backed up with evidence. They can't confirm the use of the baseball bat either unless they find some of the remnants. I don't know how completely a wooden bat would burn. Imo

Dave F. posted a couple pages back about "hickory" bats. Very interesting!! Worth reading.

 

[susiQ]

The wording is throwing us all off, I am going with what LE stated, KK said he "put" it in the fire, not threw it in the fire.

Yes, and I'm going with the black PLASTIC tote with the silver handles. That's it!!

 

[ab01]

True. LE likely could not verify that the gun was in a different condition. It was just a statement made by a witness.
But I do think much of the important information is backed up with evidence. They can't confirm the use of the baseball bat either unless they find some of the remnants. I don't know how completely a wooden bat would burn. Imo

I would like to address a statement about hickory bats that was made in the last thread. Somebody claimed that hickory doesn't burn well. I have wood working background and when I make cabinets I often use kiln dried hickory,cherry,oak,maple etc. I usually use the scraps for kindling for campfires. Hickory is a very hard hardwood, As such it tends to burn slow because of the tight grain. But it does burn hot and for a long duration, If an accelerant was in fact used, It would not surprise me to learn that it would likely completely burn. As bats made out of hickory are made from straight grain kiln dried wooden Blanks. I have turned a few myself. MOO

Hickory Firewood

"Hickory wood is a heavy and dense hardwood. It dries fairly quickly since the dense wood doesn’t hold a lot of moisture. It can be tough to split, but not always beyond splitting by hand.

Although many people love burning hickory, there are some who prefer other woods over hickory just because hickory firewood can be more difficult to process. Hickory is harder to saw and split than a lot of other hardwoods like oak. Hickory may outperform oak in a wood stove, but for some, not well enough to justify the work. Another disadvantage of hickory firewood is that bugs really like it. It is not uncommon for a hickory woodpile to have a lot of sawdust, or bugdust from insects boring into it."

 

[MsJosie]

Investigators begin searching landfill for Kelsey Berreth’s remains
[...]
Dr. Melissa Connor is a professor of forensic anthropology at Colorado Mesa University in Grand Junction, where she also leads the Forensic Research Station. There, Connor studies how human bodies decompose in different environments, and how that research can be applied in searches for remains.

Dr. Connor said landfill searches involve careful, detailed work. First, investigators have to locate the right area within a dump to start searching. Connor said most landfills are actually highly organized sites.

“They have good GPS recordings on where every truck goes in,” she said. “So if they know, say, a dumpster location that the remains might have been in, they’ll know what truck picked that dumpster up and where that dumpster dumped its load in the landfill."

[...]

Police believe Berreth’s body was burned, and may have been discarded months ago. However, Connor said human remains and evidence can often withstand destruction attempts and outdoor elements, being preserved within the layers of a landfill.

And the sooner a search begins, Connor says the better chance investigators have to find what they’re looking for.

“It’s a matter of taking the time, doing it piece by piece,” she said. “And landfill searches, particularly ones that start up relatively soon after the decedent was dumped are often successful.”

I agree with Dr. Connor. When we dumped trash even 30 years ago, the company recorded who, what, where time, load size, toyed of vechile, license plate number, signature and everything else. How much easier it is to have a GPS location too. With that I hope KB is found soon.

Let me also add that the dump sites also charge a fee per bag or truck. Even if they had a prepaid service setup, a system would still record that the user used the site, date and all plus more info above. So LE May have info that he used the site because he had to pay.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

bbm
Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV Feb 26

They were together at the Five Guys (Sean and PF). In court, investigators said they have an estranged relationship but were running errands together. Then, Patrick talked to Sean before saying he wanted an attorney prior to talking with WPPD.

I'm thinking he SF told PF something's. Like you need talk to the investigators. Don't think I'll lie for you, don't drag me into this.
PF knows SF has a duty as a police officer. So he agrees to this,but not unless he can talk to a lawyer first.
They are estranged as SF says, still they are brothers, so he does his best to make him go, and be a loving brother too.
MOO

 

[ilovechili]

To me there is a difference between something in the affidavit that says, According to MG the gun was in a different condition than she left it. They don't say however that we were then able to verify that it was in fact to be the case.

They do however say things like KK said she was at KB condo on such and such a date and We (LE) were able to verify this through phone records.

KK told us that PF called her and told her she had a mess to clean up and based on cell data we were able to verify that she was in CO on such and such dates.

KK told us where PF took KB body and we were able to verify that with cadaver dogs. etc etc

There are statements in the affidavit that have not necessarily been verified by LE in my opinion. But to say none of it has is not accurate in my opinion.

I almost missed your reply and was not sure at first it was to me. I agree and never said there are not facts that are somewhat corroborated. There are pinging phones and phones found to be in certain places (not so sure the person was also proven to be with each and every phone, we certainly know KB probably was not with hers when they were trying to make it look as though she was safe and alive to her mother, job and others, etc. or the occasions they were intentionally using phones to throw off of course).

And I agree, we have no way to know MG was telling the truth, nor do we have any reason to feel KK was or is, except where corroborated, even then, it is not proven nor tried yet. jmo.

I note as of the time of the affidavit they had not even retrieved KB's gun yet, so I wonder when she gave that tidbit up...

I find it interesting, they mention either gun, but particularly MG's. They do not have to put every fact or thing from every interview into this document, they usually pick the important things, so to me it says a little bit of something that they note this. No expert but that is what the criminal experts keep telling us, it contains far from everything.

I also see KK allegedly apologized for lying to MG but I never really saw exactly what for or when she lied to her... Again, not everything is there or clear.

As to your last sentence, I in no way was saying nothing is accurate in it and I never said any such thing whatsoever. It is, however, not trial testimony nor proven to a jury and in addition, we have not even seen any of the exhibits to my knowledge. They are in fact still working on the case and working hard, as the landfill search shows, so more will likely come as well later.

I was simply saying in my last post that we pick and choose things when discussing, and it also does not mean the poster is stating it is a proven fact, they are discussing oftentimes. To each their own.

I was not even so much disagreeing as simply stating each looks at it differently. This case is not tried nor proven.

In my case, both KK and PF are as guilty as sin of their various crimes. No issues there. Yep, I convicted before trial jmo.

 

[Aydrianna523]

I originally thought of the tote as a bin. I'm sticking with that (for now) because it seems way too cumbersome to carry a body in a large athletic bag.

 

[Hatfield]

I agree with Dr. Connor. When we dumped trash even 30 years ago, the company recorded who, what, where time, load size, toyed of vechile, license plate number, signature and everything else. How much easier it is to have a GPS location too. With that I hope KB is found soon.

Let me also add that the dump sites also charge a fee per bag or truck. Even if they had a prepaid service setup, a system would still record that the user used the site, date and all plus more info above. So LE May have info that he used the site because he had to pay.

I can vouch that dumps do seem to keep good records. The last time I went to a dump on my own they made me pull in an area that weighed my vehicle and then I pulled up to a window where they took my name and made me prove I lived in the township by a utility receipt. Then they charged me a fee to dump.

Different dumps may not be as thorough as the one I went to but I was really surprised at how much hassle I had to go through to dump a load a trash from my truck.

I suspect for people's normal trash being collected at people's houses that the large trash trucks have to go to a designated area and I am pretty sure the dump would keep records of which areas are used for that purpose.

If PF used a regular dumpster from a certain area then the dump would probably know the area that trash trucks deliver to.

And the great thing that will help LE is all they have to do is to spot dates on bills and dates on junk mail that are being thrown out and they can probably get to the general area of the right dates of the trash pretty quickly. Then the real work begins once they have the right section.

The other good thing going for the searchers is they kind of know what to look for. Burnt charred anything will give them a clue if they find anything charred or burnt.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

It could be as simple as people in the United States, you can figure out where they are from because they use the word soda, soft drink, or Coke.

I myself, I'm going with the arrest affidavit versus trying to put words in other people's mouths, especially the prosecution and the law enforcement folks. In my opinion, they clearly stated that the tote was going to be very important and the testimony, and that was singular, vs. multiple totes.

But I'm just using my logic, and your logic and Others May differ from my logic.

You left out Pop. Great analogy of how the tote can get confused.
MOO

 

[ab01]

I almost missed your reply and was not sure at first it was to me. I agree and never said there are not facts that are somewhat corroborated. There are pinging phones and phones found to be in certain places (not so sure the person was also proven to be with each and every phone, we certainly know KB probably was not with hers when they were trying to make it look as though she was safe and alive to her mother, job and others, etc. or the occasions they were intentionally using phones to throw off of course).

And I agree, we have no way to know MG was telling the truth, nor do we have any reason to feel KK was or is, except where corroborated, even then, it is not proven nor tried yet. jmo.

I note as of the time of the affidavit they had not even retrieved KB's gun yet, so I wonder when she gave that tidbit up...

I find it interesting, they mention either gun, but particularly MG's. They do not have to put every fact or thing from every interview into this document, they usually pick the important things, so to me it says a little bit of something that they note this. No expert but that is what the criminal experts keep telling us, it contains far from everything.

I also see KK allegedly apologized for lying to MG but I never really saw exactly what for or when she lied to her... Again, not everything is there or clear.

As to your last sentence, I in no way was saying nothing is accurate in it and I never said any such thing whatsoever. It is, however, not trial testimony nor proven to a jury and in addition, we have not even seen any of the exhibits to my knowledge. They are in fact still working on the case and working hard, as the landfill search shows, so more will likely come as well later.

I was simply saying in my last post that we pick and choose things when discussing, and it also does not mean the poster is stating it is a proven fact, they are discussing oftentimes. To each their own.

I was not even so much disagreeing as simply stating each looks at it differently. This case is not tried nor proven.

In my case, both KK and PF are as guilty as sin of their various crimes. No issues there. Yep, I convicted before trial jmo.

It was not posted in response to anybody particularily, Just my general thoughts on the affidavit the way I see it. I agree there are many things that can and can not be verified by us and there is a lot we are not privy to. Many people see things differently, I just try to think about how LE sees things and why they seem to be led a certain direction. So yah thats just how I approach a case, why would LE choose to believe certain things etc. Not trying do dispute anything just trying to approach things the way I believe LE is. Maybe we have both been duped. Time will tell.

And great post!

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

Haa! We've beat many a scenario in this case from Day 1 waiting around for any bread crumb of info. I won't even say the dreaded 'dessert that shall not be named' <cinnamon roll>

We are so passionate about getting Justice for Kelsey,and it shows.

 

[skycountry]

I agree with Dr. Connor. When we dumped trash even 30 years ago, the company recorded who, what, where time, load size, toyed of vechile, license plate number, signature and everything else. How much easier it is to have a GPS location too. With that I hope KB is found soon.

Let me also add that the dump sites also charge a fee per bag or truck. Even if they had a prepaid service setup, a system would still record that the user used the site, date and all plus more info above. So LE May have info that he used the site because he had to pay.

I doubt he would have kept what was left if her for very long, trash pick up with trash cans like his is weekly, so that could narrow down which day his trash was picked up. Unless he took what was left somewhere else, going to be harder to find then. I do hope they find what they are looking for.

 

[SandyQLS]

In the affidavit it is described as a black plastic tote with silver handles. Many articles have mistakenly referred to it as a bag. Imo

Acoustics? I don't remember "bag" coming up until later.

Tweets during prelim hearing Thread 39, page 38:

Jennifer Kovaleski‏Verified account @JennKovaleski 2m2 minutes ago
Defense attorney: "How many photos are there of #PatrickFrazeeleaving with a black tote? Commander Adams responds: "No"

Ashley Franco‏ @AshleyKKTV 1m1 minute ago
Black tote back in examination. Large black plastic tote seen in the back of #PatrickFrazee truck. REMINDER: this tote is apparently a significant part of #KelseyBerrethdisappearance. @KKTV11News

Did the word "back" morph into "bag "?

 

[ab01]

I would like to address a statement about hickory bats that was made in the last thread. Somebody claimed that hickory doesn't burn well. I have wood working background and when I make cabinets I often use kiln dried hickory,cherry,oak,maple etc. I usually use the scraps for kindling for campfires. Hickory is a very hard hardwood, As such it tends to burn slow because of the tight grain. But it does burn hot and for a long duration, If an accelerant was in fact used, It would not surprise me to learn that it would likely completely burn. As bats made out of hickory are made from straight grain kiln dried wooden Blanks. I have turned a few myself. MOO

Hickory Firewood

"Hickory wood is a heavy and dense hardwood. It dries fairly quickly since the dense wood doesn’t hold a lot of moisture. It can be tough to split, but not always beyond splitting by hand.

Although many people love burning hickory, there are some who prefer other woods over hickory just because hickory firewood can be more difficult to process. Hickory is harder to saw and split than a lot of other hardwoods like oak. Hickory may outperform oak in a wood stove, but for some, not well enough to justify the work. Another disadvantage of hickory firewood is that bugs really like it. It is not uncommon for a hickory woodpile to have a lot of sawdust, or bugdust from insects boring into it."

Also quoting myself just to add:

Kiln dried wood such as a bat would tend to burn completely without having to rake the ends back into the fire. None dried wood does tend to leave ends that don't burn completely bc as they burn the moisture is forced from the middle of the wood out towards the outside ends that are not in the direct heat of the fire. So many times you have to put the un burnt ends back in to the middle of the fire to completely burn them. With kiln dried lumber there is very little moisture to cause that effect hence they tend to burn completely. My own experience and general knowledge and MOO. Ok so yah about those cinnamon rolls...

 

[ilovechili]

It was not posted in response to anybody particularily, Just my general thoughts on the affidavit the way I see it. I agree there are many things that can and can not be verified by us and there is a lot we are not privy to. Many people see things differently, I just try to think about how LE sees things and why they seem to be led a certain direction. So yah thats just how I approach a case, why would LE choose to believe certain things etc. Not trying do dispute anything just trying to approach things the way I believe LE is. Maybe we have both been duped. Time will tell.

And great post!

Wasn't sure if you were responding but saw it below mine and it seemed to address mine.

I too look more from the prosecution side generally, however, I watched a video from a defense attorney this a.m. and he was bothered by many of the very same things and poked a lot of holes in this case when one considers this, I think most would admit, convoluted story that in some ways seems to make no sense of KK's and some other things. He was not coming down on either side, was more pro-prosecution I felt but was just going with what is out there so far as well and showing where the holes would be thus far for a defense to take up with and where they would go with it.

I think the prosecution has more than we know though (he hoped and said the same) and quite honestly I hope for a bit of a twist even where KK is concerned. Not sure that is realistic, but one can hope. We may all be surprised, who knows. This is looking like such a he said/she said though and she is already for the most part "out" of most charges, we sure do not need PF to be as well. That would be no justice at all for these victims.

It is just supposition but I feel this gun plays in, others do not. I feel it was put in for a reason but maybe it was just to confuse, strategize or they feel is is another theory or some such. Some think KK would not lie because of her deal but I can think of a few reasons she would still take the chance and lie about certain bigger things that I won't go into here.

I have hope they will find KB's remains and the other things they are looking for at the landfill. That would clearly probably corroborate something they were apparently told.

Nothing will bring the victims back but I hope all who were involved in this end up where they deserve to. And I leave open the possibility there are others but not a fact so will leave it at that.

So anyhow, thanks for the great response as well; we all want the same result I think, for the most part anyway and that is what matters. Signed by, Long Winded Me

jmo

 

[ab01]

In reference to the black plastic tote. I'm not sure it matters weather or not fluid would seep out on top of the hay bale as even with a lid most are not completely air tight. I think too much has been made weather it was a bag or a hard plastic box. Cadaver dogs are trained to hit on even the tiniest amount of sent, especially after a body has been decompossing for a few days. I don't find it unplausible that the dog would hit on that area even if there wasn't material that was left behind. MOO

I do believe that after reviewing the affidavit more closely that LE does believe it was a hard plastic tote and I think the bits of burnt black plastic that they found at Casa de Frazee tends to support that. MOO

 

[gitana1]

Horrible murder. KB's friend said PF was always mad about something. I wonder if Ma Frazee complained about money woes to him every day. She had no husband to complain to and she probably nagged him, but still KB was no burden to him financially. She paid her own way so why did they have that incident where he complained about money and she said maybe I should just shoot myself, pointing a gun to her head. Could this have triggered something in his dumb head to think about killing her. He sounds like he was a royal pain to KB.

I got the sense that was about his excuses for not marrying her. CB stated something about how the reason they didn't marry was the cattle market taking a nose dive. I think he made a lot of excuses.

She apparently thought they were engaged. She came from a super religious family. She probably felt a lot of pressure to be married to the father of her child.

I mean there's something quite odd in this. She felt she was engaged and had a relationship. There are indications of strain - the account of the gun incident, the reference to arguing about finances, the fact that the baby was over a year old and they still weren't married, the comment the mom says KB made about "I feel safe around PF now" or something to that effect, in relation to her gun? The hospitalization for anxiety and depression.

Yet PF never just ended the relationship and said he didn't want KB. Why? Why didn't he just say it's over? And he hid his baby from KK until last summer?

KB seems like a sweet, ambitious person. She was beautiful. Why didn't PF want her?

I note again that he's a man who apparently never moved out of his mother's home. Despite having a few adult relationships.

I mean I know they have a smallish ranch that he worked so that could explain that. Adults will stay on family farms to work them when there's a family business.

But there's something weird here I can't put my finger on exactly. Why the secrecy about not wanting to stay in the relationship with KB? Why the secrecy about the existence of his child, to KK, who he also never married and seemed to have no intention of becoming serious with?

I get this sense that he never loved any woman. That his loyalties were linked to his mother only. Until his child was born. But he kept KK as a hanger on for what she could do for him.

As to KB, maybe he knew it was odd not to want her. Maybe he was simply forestalling an official breakup for fear she would try to move back home or closer to her work with the baby.

I don't know. But it's strange how these two didn't live together and weren't married, there were some apparent difficulties but she felt comfortable enough with him to help him with his cows, to go to Thanksgiving dinner with him and to play a blindfolded candle scent game with him.

It will be interesting to hear how that's all fleshed out by prosecutors.

 

[susiQ]

I agree with Dr. Connor. When we dumped trash even 30 years ago, the company recorded who, what, where time, load size, toyed of vechile, license plate number, signature and everything else. How much easier it is to have a GPS location too. With that I hope KB is found soon.

Let me also add that the dump sites also charge a fee per bag or truck. Even if they had a prepaid service setup, a system would still record that the user used the site, date and all plus more info above. So LE May have info that he used the site because he had to pay.

As well, transfer stations do the same record keeping so, anything "dumped" at a transfer station can also be tracked when it is hauled off to the actual dump site.

I have confidence if KB's remains are at Midway, they will find them.