CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #47 *ARREST*

[GordianKnot]

In this case there is overwhelming evidence that the victim is deceased. 1. She has not been seen since entering her residence on 11/22. She was not seen exiting her residence. To date, she has not been found after exhaustive searching. No transportation method has identified her. 2. She has not used any electronic means to support herself such as financial transactions. She has not used a phone to contact anyone. She has close family ties to stay. 3. A witness claims she is deceased and saw her burned and saw the crime scene. LE have confirmed many parts of that account.

Yes, Yes, and Yes, to all of the above points! Additionally:

4. They have blood evidence in her home.

 

[Love Never Fails]

I keep hoping the trial gives us a lot of information. But some trials bring out only as much as necessary to convict and the defense fights to keep so much hidden (as in the Jodi Arias trial). It’s frustrating.
I believe PF of course did the killing but I can readily agree KK May have planted the seed. That girl is crazy. I do hope everyone she comes in contact with avoids her like the plague.

 

[Love Never Fails]

I agree with most of what you've said concerning these two despicable creatures, except the last part, bbm. I think KK wanted nothing less than for PF to "run with it" and fulfill her sick fantasy. I also think it was HER job all along as she was most likely the driving force. No mistake, PF wanted KB out of the picture too. But seriously, who would drive a 1600 mile round trip three times, twice within the space of a week to kill someone if they really didn't want to do it?? She only lacked the stomach to do the "wet work", as they say. As well, in her twisted mind she desperately needed PF to do it to show her how much more he valued HER over KB, the sweet, cute, tiny woman that was everything she wasn't and could never be. So, once the deed was done, she felt obligated to run down there AGAIN and clean up the mess PF made for HER.

The irony of course lies in the fact that PF ultimately did it for himself. PF only does what benefits him. KK was dumb enough to think he actually planned to start a life with her. I'm guessing that fantasy ended the day she got the call from the FBI in Las Vegas. Her brain then went into overdrive as to how she could spin this tale with minimal damage to her character. Unfortunately, she didn't have any. Even though she managed to get a sweet plea deal while trying to save some face, that clearly didn't work. Her "face" appears even uglier now.

Yeah, I think it’s clear in everyone’s mind now that KK was the driving force here. That’s why PF told her she had a mess to clean up.

 

[mickey2942]

Yeah, I think it’s clear in everyone’s mind now that KK was the driving force here. That’s why PF told her she had a mess to clean up.

I don't think that she thought PF would actually do the deed. She is so borderline Personality disorder, not unlike Jodi Arias, creates drama, even when there isn't any.

 

[GordianKnot]

Yeah, I think it’s clear in everyone’s mind now that KK was the driving force here. That’s why PF told her she had a mess to clean up.

BBM:

Nope, not everyone's mind!

I say that with great respect for your opinions, LNF.
Reasonable people can disagree on this point.

I absolutely think KB's murder was PF's brainchild.
He's the one who wanted her dead.

He's also the one who killed her.

JMO.

 

[Seattle1]

Last check, mind you I could be wrong & refuted, the bone fragments found in the Avery case were never tested?

On this subject slightly, if PF did in fact burn KBs body, even though KKL has said it was done with gasoline, can that information be trusted? We are speaking of farms/ranches, therefore access to diesel powered equipment & kerosene fueled barn heaters for the animals. All 3 of these can burn, although diesel is difficult to catch on fire if mixed with either of the other two, it will ignite quickly.

Kerosene is the most dangerous of the three in this aspect. In "free air" it burns at 2093°C, which translates roughly to about 3800°F! That's more than double what would be required by today's crematoriums (1500-1800°F) With this degree rating, it would likely take, about an hour to achieve desired results IMO.

I live in a somewhat rural area of Illinois. We have some fair large trees on our property , and every time a storm comes through, our yard is littered with branches. We had some old kerosene that accidentally got mixed with some gasoline , so we won't use it in anything. My husband decided it was ok to use for a good burn pit starter. When he ignited it, I swore there was a bomb set off in our backyard! Now this could have been due to the ratio of the mixture , or it could be all kerosene:gas mixes, I don't know; but its likely PF may have been heard by his mother igniting the burn if so....

I believe you are correct that there could have been additional accelerants used in the trough fire. I think the AA references 5 gallons of gasoline because KK was seen on surveillance with PF purchasing the petro, and she confirmed they used it in the fire. MOO

 

[Seattle1]

Former detective explains possible search warrant tactics in Berreth case
3/3/19

WOODLAND PARK – It was the day a missing person case transitioned into a homicide investigation.

On Dec. 6, with Kelsey Berreth’s family in Colorado looking for their missing loved one, Berreth’s brother found a spot of blood around the toilet inside her townhome.
[...]
It was missed by Woodland Park Police and the Colorado Bureau of Investigation in the days before. That had several people questioning how law enforcement could have missed a pivotal piece of evidence and what they look for in similar situations.

At the benefit of hindsight, News 5 sat down with John San Agustin, a former detective with the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office, to discuss how searches begin in missing person investigations.

“You have to treat the investigation as if there’s foul play. You always have to err on the side of caution, then just saying that she’s, you know, alive,” San Agustin said.

 

[Mom24]

ITAWY.
To be blunt, a crematorium is an oven. You cannot maintain 350F degrees to bake cookies with the oven door open, and you cannot maintain 1200-1800F in an outdoor bonfire to burn a body in 3 hours IMO.

IMO KK's stories are absurd.

Actually, you can burn a body in an open fire. People have been cremating remains for millions of years in open fires. Neolithic man wasn't using a crematorium oven. People in some cultures still put bodies in funeral pyres. And all of this has been done without accelerants, add gasoline or kerosene to the burn and you've definitely got enough power to burn a body.
I don't know where the three hour burn time comes in, but I've yet to see even a fireplace fire burn out in three hours, it takes time for things at high temps to cool down.
Just wanted to add, I've reduced a pricey porterhouse steak to dust in far less than three hours over an open flame. So it's certainly doable.

 

[Mom24]

Former detective explains possible search warrant tactics in Berreth case
3/3/19

WOODLAND PARK – It was the day a missing person case transitioned into a homicide investigation.

On Dec. 6, with Kelsey Berreth’s family in Colorado looking for their missing loved one, Berreth’s brother found a spot of blood around the toilet inside her townhome.
[...]
It was missed by Woodland Park Police and the Colorado Bureau of Investigation in the days before. That had several people questioning how law enforcement could have missed a pivotal piece of evidence and what they look for in similar situations.

At the benefit of hindsight, News 5 sat down with John San Agustin, a former detective with the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office, to discuss how searches begin in missing person investigations.

“You have to treat the investigation as if there’s foul play. You always have to err on the side of caution, then just saying that she’s, you know, alive,” San Agustin said.

I do understand his point, they were coming in nearly a week later into an unknown situation with a missing person. In hindsight, even if they had noticed a drop of blood around a toilet, it might not have raised any alarms, to be indelicate it can happen in a bathroom used by a female at certain times of the month. But I also think they should have checked things more thoroughly and it's just lucky the family noticed it when they did. It's a learning curve for LE as well as family's of missing people, because if that had been any other family they might have assumed LE had noticed it or that it wasn't of any consequence.

 

[Mom24]

BBM:

Nope, not everyone's mind!

I say that with great respect for your opinions, LNF.
Reasonable people can disagree on this point.

I absolutely think KB's murder was PF's brainchild.
He's the one who wanted her dead.

He's also the one who killed her.

JMO.

You make some good points. I'm not convinced PF acted alone and how far KK thought it would ultimately go, but the murder charge rests firmly with PF in my mind. At this point, whether KK pushed him to do it or not doesn't matter, because he picked up that bat and murdered KB. I don't see him as a man who would murder someone if he didn't want to.

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

ITAWY.
To be blunt, a crematorium is an oven. You cannot maintain 350F degrees to bake cookies with the oven door open, and you cannot maintain 1200-1800F in an outdoor bonfire to burn a body in 3 hours IMO.

IMO KK's stories are absurd.

I just want to make sure you're not being sarcastic, if you are, apologies before I go on.

First, a cookie doesn't have the same composition as a human body.
Next, an oven is dry air. The O2 would actually help if you were baking said cookies over an open flame.
Gasoline was accepted as one of the accelerants. Actually, PF filling up the gas can at Conoco.
KK also said wood and motor oil (IIRC) were used as well.
Human bodies can have what is called the wicking effect where the adipose tissue aids in the burning process.
Finally, the burn area was contained, in that there was no place for the embers, fluids, etc. to go, except in the trough. It was a continuous burn inside an enclosed area with the addition of wood and whatever else.


What Is the Temperature of Fire?
What Is the Temperature of Fire?


Different materials burn at different temperatures, so a log fire burning in a fireplace may only average about 600 degrees C, but a well-stoked wood fire can exceed 1,100 degrees C. The flame from an acetylene torch burns at about 2,200 degrees C.
Even different parts of the same flame can burn at different temperatures. The temperature of a single candle flame can vary from 800 to 1400 degrees C depending on where it is measured. The hottest flame is achieved by the combustion of a carbon compound called dicyanoacetylene, which burns in oxygen with a temperature of almost 5,000 degrees C.

Burn, Baby, Burn: Understanding the Wick Effect
Wicking

It took awhile for the pig body to catch fire -- Sarah was correct that the body isn't highly flammable - but once it caught, it burned at a high temperature and low flame, burning for several hours until de Haan extinguished the fire. The flesh and bones in the burned part of the body were reduced to ashes, but there was almost no damage to the rest of the room -- except for a melted TV set. De Haan reported that the heat from the burning body collected at the top of the room, making it hot enough to melt the appliance.


As I mentioned, oil would increase and prolong the burning time, as did the plastic container and bags.


What Is the Typical Flame Temperature for Different Fuels?
Flame Temperature

I do believe KK. The hole LE dug in PF yard was determined to have an accelerant present, and, a thing that looked like burnt plastic.
Do I believe everything she said? Of course not. There's probably a few choice things she left out.
I'm wondering why they aren't out digging at the site her hospital dumps their waste to look for the phones and tooth.

 

[Songbird1973]

I don't think PF wanted to be the murder, I think KKL did or someone else who's not been named yet that he solicited. I believe that's why he called KKL with the "mess to come clean up." Because she was the one who was supposed to have carried it out and was her idea from the get go.

KK's story of PF's solicitation, his anger when she didnt kill KB, and PF's ordering KK's to come clean up "her" mess and take care of the evidence, sounds exactly like a bully.

My older brother was a bully. Big brother would think of ways to secretly defy our mean Dad, but he didn't want to be the actual naughty one, so he'd tell us we had to do it. Steal him a candy bar, trespass on a neighbors farm and bring back a rhubarb stalk to prove we'd obeyed, etc. Once while following Dad through a store, big brother whispered "You should steal a pack of cigarettes," then quickly walks in front of Dad where he can be seen and not associated with me if I get caught. When we got to the vehicle, he was very angry that I had not had the nerve to steal them. And he ominously hissed, "You'll have another chance!" I felt very guilty about not doing my "job", so I made myself do it the next place we went, got caught and took a beating when we got home. Big brother's response? Said I was stupid for taking them from a small store I could get caught easier in.

And then I married a bully. Bullys don't want to accept blame for anything, but instead of actually changing for the better, they build a wall of anger towards people so they feel justified in their bad behavior. And those of us who aren't that bright dutifully feel responsible. So one of our children got hurt: "Its not my fault," instead of hugging the child. The toddler chokes on a bite of corn chip: "It's not my fault. I didn't let her have them!" instead of trying to help her. The preschooler spills his milk, the new kitten misses the litter box, a child vomits in the bed: an angry "Hey, you've got a mess to clean up!" And then I started getting a constant angry vibe from him which was, guess what, somehow my fault. And one day it dawned on me, it wasn't my fault. (He was willing to change and we're still together.)

He eventually confessed that the angry vibe was to justify infidelity. So he could feel "It's not my fault, she made me mad so I deserve to do what I want."

So MOO, PF is a bully. It's very believable that he built an anger toward KB, justifying his relationship with KK (KB doesn't deserve me anymore); and also his desire to have the baby (KB is a bad mom so I deserve the baby.)

And I agree with the quoted poster's statement that PF didn't want to be the murderer. I think he's absolutely the one who wanted KB gone though, he just didn't want to be the bad guy. So in typical bully fashion, he somehow made it became KK's job to get rid of KB. Perhaps it was even KK's "fault" that PF got into a relationship with KB, I don't know. KK may have broken up with PF several years ago and gotten married so it's her fault he turned to KB. Then if KK spoke of wanting to get back together with PF and suggested he break up with KB, I can definitely imagine him saying "If you want me, it's your job to get rid her." Or maybe it was, "You're the one who came back into my life and made it complicated, now it's your job to fix it." Possibly KB found out PF was having a relationship with KK, and threatened to leave with the baby. That would "definitely" make it KK's job to kill KB so she couldn't leave.

I think PF's line of thought was, "KB is to blame for my anger, and now she won't give me the baby and leave. It's KK's fault for putting me in such a mess to start with, and and now the stupid woman won't do her job to get me out of the mess. So in the end it's their fault I had to do it. But I'm sure not gonna clean up a mess that's not my fault so KK better get herself down here and finish up.

KK then listed other ways PF reminded her that he'd had to do HER job, and now she REALLY owed him to finish up and get rid of any evidence pointing at him!

 

[MsBetsy]

I don't think that she thought PF would actually do the deed. She is so borderline Personality disorder, not unlike Jodi Arias, creates drama, even when there isn't any.

That's what I think too! It's the only explanation that makes sense as to why she would latch on to him so intensely and be so eager to please him. She was quick to follow his orders and when she couldn't go through with the murder, she just apologized to him! It's as if she couldn't stand up to him and explain herself because she was so fearful of losing him! Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Actually, you can burn a body in an open fire. People have been cremating remains for millions of years in open fires. Neolithic man wasn't using a crematorium oven. People in some cultures still put bodies in funeral pyres. And all of this has been done without accelerants, add gasoline or kerosene to the burn and you've definitely got enough power to burn a body.
I don't know where the three hour burn time comes in, but I've yet to see even a fireplace fire burn out in three hours, it takes time for things at high temps to cool down.
Just wanted to add, I've reduced a pricey porterhouse steak to dust in far less than three hours over an open flame. So it's certainly doable.

Yes, but there would still be more remaining with this method, such as bone fragments or even intact bones. Imo

 

[ilovechili]

"Frazee, per Kenney, used a ladder to put Kelsey Berreth's body near a big haystack. They took the tote with her gun inside"

Per Sam Kraemer KOAA/tweet/preliminary hearing.

How did the gun leave the tote and travel with KK? And she never saw the body? Give me a break.

 

[GordianKnot]

Positively itching to see the search warrants!

C'mon, Judge Sells, let's get those released to the public.
Today, if possible.
Thanks in advance.

 

[MsBetsy]

Has there been any word on the landfill search? I thought they started last week.

 

[ilovechili]

KK's story of PF's solicitation, his anger when she didnt kill KB, and PF's ordering KK's to come clean up "her" mess and take care of the evidence, sounds exactly like a bully.

My older brother was a bully. Big brother would think of ways to secretly defy our mean Dad, but he didn't want to be the actual naughty one, so he'd tell us we had to do it. Steal him a candy bar, trespass on a neighbors farm and bring back a rhubarb stalk to prove we'd obeyed, etc. Once while following Dad through a store, big brother whispered "You should steal a pack of cigarettes," then quickly walks in front of Dad where he can be seen and not associated with me if I get caught. When we got to the vehicle, he was very angry that I had not had the nerve to steal them. And he ominously hissed, "You'll have another chance!" I felt very guilty about not doing my "job", so I made myself do it the next place we went, got caught and took a beating when we got home. Big brother's response? Said I was stupid for taking them from a small store I could get caught easier in.

And then I married a bully. Bullys don't want to accept blame for anything, but instead of actually changing for the better, they build a wall of anger towards people so they feel justified in their bad behavior. And those of us who aren't that bright dutifully feel responsible. So one of our children got hurt: "Its not my fault," instead of hugging the child. The toddler chokes on a bite of corn chip: "It's not my fault. I didn't let her have them!" instead of trying to help her. The preschooler spills his milk, the new kitten misses the litter box, a child vomits in the bed: an angry "Hey, you've got a mess to clean up!" And then I started getting a constant angry vibe from him which was, guess what, somehow my fault. And one day it dawned on me, it wasn't my fault. (He was willing to change and we're still together.)

He eventually confessed that the angry vibe was to justify infidelity. So he could feel "It's not my fault, she made me mad so I deserve to do what I want."

So MOO, PF is a bully. It's very believable that he built an anger toward KB, justifying his relationship with KK (KB doesn't deserve me anymore); and also his desire to have the baby (KB is a bad mom so I deserve the baby.)

And I agree with the quoted poster's statement that PF didn't want to be the murderer. I think he's absolutely the one who wanted KB gone though, he just didn't want to be the bad guy. So in typical bully fashion, he somehow made it became KK's job to get rid of KB. Perhaps it was even KK's "fault" that PF got into a relationship with KB, I don't know. KK may have broken up with PF several years ago and gotten married so it's her fault he turned to KB. Then if KK spoke of wanting to get back together with PF and suggested he break up with KB, I can definitely imagine him saying "If you want me, it's your job to get rid her." Or maybe it was, "You're the one who came back into my life and made it complicated, now it's your job to fix it." Possibly KB found out PF was having a relationship with KK, and threatened to leave with the baby. That would "definitely" make it KK's job to kill KB so she couldn't leave.

I think PF's line of thought was, "KB is to blame for my anger, and now she won't give me the baby and leave. It's KK's fault for putting me in such a mess to start with, and and now the stupid woman won't do her job to get me out of the mess. So in the end it's their fault I had to do it. But I'm sure not gonna clean up a mess that's not my fault so KK better get herself down here and finish up.

KK then listed other ways PF reminded her that he'd had to do HER job, and now she REALLY owed him to finish up and get rid of any evidence pointing at him!

Great insight. There are types that do this and everything is always someone else's fault. Always. Everything.

 

[mustloveco]

It appears as though they are doing some cleaning or repairs on KB townhouse. I have new photos but will have to wait til I am on my CPU to upload

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

BBM:

Nope, not everyone's mind!

I say that with great respect for your opinions, LNF.
Reasonable people can disagree on this point.

I absolutely think KB's murder was PF's brainchild.
He's the one who wanted her dead.

He's also the one who killed her.

JMO.

I think it was equally mutual.
The efforts she took,and number of people she involved in this is mind boggling.
MOO