CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #52 *ARREST*

[Hatch]

I think it’s pretty clear that they didn’t believe that a crime had been committed, much less the house was a crime scene.

I also think that PF’s lies served him well here, and law enforcement may have believed they were dealing with a woman with mental health issues, who had taken off.

As I remember the first welfare check was just a visual to see if cars were there, they had no way to enter without a key. The second time LE came it was due to a call from CB saying she thought she had found blood, is that when they took things from the apt. or was there a second entrance by LE and CBI?

 

[Love Never Fails]

Re: the welfare check. They are tricky - I've heard of a family member calling for a welfare check on another family member strictly to harass that person. It can also be dangerous, depending on how it is handled. At the same time, I have a family member who wouldn't be here today if the police hadn't broken down her door when she didn't respond to a welfare check. She was a young woman who had had a terrible stroke and was lying helpless on the floor, unable to move.

That said, when a mother with small children goes missing and the child/children are with the SO/husband, I think those welfare checks should be more thorough. I haven't heard any hard data on how often mothers abandon their young children, particularly mothers with a steady job and no prior history of substance abuse or mental health issues, but I suspect the numbers are pretty low.

Drew Peterson and Chris Watts come immediately to mind. Yeah, we're supposed to believe both of those mothers just up and ran away with their mythical boyfriend. Sorry, I just don't believe it happens that way very often - if ever.

I agree about the early stages of the investigation - that first search of the house with a cadaver dog and luminol was inexcusably sloppy. Were it not for the efforts of CB, I think PF would have gotten away with it.

One of the bigger hurdles for the defense is to try (maybe) to hint at an alternative scenario to explain the facts. Here's one I heard last night as some folks at dinner were speculating: PF gave KB her gun back, thought she was 'sane'. He went over on Thanksgiving day, she'd found out about KK, she took her just-returned gun and either shot herself or got shot as he struggled to get the gun from her. He panicked, knowing things had been bad between them and that the SO is the first suspect, and (tug at the heartstrings moment) his dear little daughter was in the next room and he was just thinking about her. Everything afterwards was the result of a panicking but innocent guy.

PF's buddies RS and the Cline's Corner guy would believe this.

Giving a defense that pulls at the heartstrings won’t work in this case though. The DA will point out that PF lied about her having mental health issues and showed no emotion when she was missing, nor did he attend the press conference to speak to the public on behalf of KB (and his daughter). Cold as ice.

 

[Love Never Fails]

For those that followed the Watts case, there's a particular bit of compelling footage: when he and the cops view the neighbor's security footage that exposes his lies.

I would like to see the comparable PF moment: the moment during interrogation or in the courtroom when he's caught and he knows it and we know it.

Yes that was great. He knew he was done.

 

[susiQ]

I agree the blood evidence that LE missed is pretty shabby on the officers that went into the condo, and there had to still be a bleach or cleaning scents in the air, perhaps WP police need a training refresher in that Dept. unless KK brought something to spray to neutralize the odors. I still think there would have been a slight odor. Did they go in with the idea it might be a crime scene? Hmmm I am doubting it.

The bleach would have gotten rid of any odours and the scent of the bleach itself doesn't stay around that long. A couple of days at best. I'm guessing there was no odour in the house and to the naked eye everything looked clean, except of course the toilet. On closer scrutiny, it could be seen that many things had been wiped down and streaks were left behind. KK should have used a towel to dry those surfaces to prevent that. Glad she didn't.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

If PF took a shower did KK think to toss the soap?
If he flushed the commode did she think to clean the handle? If he opened the fridge did she think to clean the outside of the milk for instance ? Dig deep think of things that needed to be cleaned that might not have been.

Lots of crevasses for blood splatter,droplets to disappear. Like behind towel racks, underneath surfaces. Then there's floorboards etc where blood can seep,and not be seen.
The only real way to clean up would be to completely dismantle,rip out remodel everything.
Unfortunately for victims murderers and their cohort don't realize until after the fact that they're idiots,and their plan is far from genius.
I have a feeling more than KK,and PF will go down once this case is done.
MOO

 

[LietKynes]

Lots of crevasses for blood splatter,droplets to disappear. Like behind towel racks, underneath surfaces. Then there's floorboards etc where blood can seep,and not be seen.
The only real way to clean up would be to completely dismantle,rip out remodel everything.
Unfortunately for victims murderers and their cohort don't realize until after the fact that they're idiots,and their plan is far from genius.
I have a feeling more than KK,and PF will go down once this case is done.
MOO

SABBM

I don't have a problem with that.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I’m compiling a list of possible items that could be the subject of the pending consumptive testing. Feel free to add others, or eliminate any of these as unlikely.

Unknown DNA in KB’s apt

The gun(s)

The melted balls

Blood on the swiffer

A bat (not listed in evidence however)

The bloody sheet

An unknown weapon with another’s fingerprints

Bullet shell?

Blood in PF or KB truck

 

[GordianKnot]

I’m compiling a list of possible items that could be the subject of the pending consumptive testing. Feel free to add others, or eliminate any of these as unlikely.

Unknown DNA in KB’s apt

The gun(s)

The melted balls

Blood on the swiffer

A bat (not listed in evidence however)

The bloody sheet

An unknown weapon with another’s fingerprints

Bullet shell?

Blood in PF or KB truck

Thanks for compiling this list!!

I would add these 3 things:

• Bottle of bleach
• Bottle of Simple Green
• Swab of inside of washing machine

 

[MemPat]

I don't think PF thinks he did anything wrong - well, except in the eyes of the law.

I think by the time he worked himself up to killing KB, he firmly believed it was not only justified, but necessary for his happiness. If you asked him 'what about the law?' he'd probably say that the 'law' doesn't always get it right.

If he has trouble sleeping at night, it isn't because he hurt and murdered KB. It's because he had to do it himself and he hasn't gotten away with it.

IIRC, someone mentioned that SF was praying at PF's last court appearance. I wondered if she was praying for justice - or praying for PF to get off, whether or not she believes he did it.

Somehow I don't think Mama was praying for justice.

I guess we'll learn at the trial if that is her goal.

 

[MemPat]

The bleach would have gotten rid of any odours and the scent of the bleach itself doesn't stay around that long. A couple of days at best. I'm guessing there was no odour in the house and to the naked eye everything looked clean, except of course the toilet. On closer scrutiny, it could be seen that many things had been wiped down and streaks were left behind. KK should have used a towel to dry those surfaces to prevent that. Glad she didn't.

Perhaps KK was mad as a wet hen while she was cleaning.

You know how a teenager half cleans his room when he's made to do it?

Thank goodness KK missed enough to cause the floor to be pulled up.

I feel certain the amount of Kelsey's blood found there made the case for murder.

MOO

 

[MassGuy]

Perhaps KK was mad as a wet hen while she was cleaning.

You know how a teenager half cleans his room when he's made to do it?

Thank goodness KK missed enough to cause the floor to be pulled up.

I feel certain the amount of Kelsey's blood found there made the case for murder.

MOO

Even if they don’t find blood in great quantities, the location of that blood and the fact that it corroborates her story, is what matters.

Blood splatter is indicative of an act of violence, as opposed to blood drops, which could be innocuous.

So where it is, and what form it comes in, is the most important thing.

 

[ilovechili]

"A consumptive testing hearing was scheduled for Friday and a preliminary hearing for Jan. 29."

"Until his arrest on Dec. 21 on suspicion of murder and solicitation of murder, the girl had been staying with Frazee."

"Prosecutors filed two murder charges because they have different theories. One is that he acted alone to kill Berreth, the other, he alone or with other people killed her during a robbery on November 22nd."

“Felony murder in this case is when you rob someone, and they die during the robbery that is also first degree murder,” 4th Judicial District Attorney, Dan May said."

From:
Patrick Frazee, accused of killing missing fiancee Kelsey Berreth, charged with 5 felony counts

No point, just saying months later, no consumptive testing agreed to yet and no plea/arraignment 3.5 months going on 4 after his arrest. Almost 4 months in jail without a plea.

Just looking back... Sometimes it is worth doing so...

Interesting too to look again at the charges...

 

[marchioness96]

As I remember the first welfare check was just a visual to see if cars were there, they had no way to enter without a key. The second time LE came it was due to a call from CB saying she thought she had found blood, is that when they took things from the apt. or was there a second entrance by LE and CBI?

IIRC, they took things out of KB's townhome when they visited following PF's visit to the landfill.

I remember seeing pictures of them removing what appeared to be drywall, but I was under the impression that was long before CB called about the blood in the bathroom.

I may be having one of my many senior moments, though

edited to add a missing word

 

[ajaylee]

"A consumptive testing hearing was scheduled for Friday and a preliminary hearing for Jan. 29."

"Until his arrest on Dec. 21 on suspicion of murder and solicitation of murder, the girl had been staying with Frazee."

"Prosecutors filed two murder charges because they have different theories. One is that he acted alone to kill Berreth, the other, he alone or with other people killed her during a robbery on November 22nd."

“Felony murder in this case is when you rob someone, and they die during the robbery that is also first degree murder,” 4th Judicial District Attorney, Dan May said."

From:
Patrick Frazee, accused of killing missing fiancee Kelsey Berreth, charged with 5 felony counts

No point, just saying months later, no consumptive testing agreed to yet and no plea/arraignment 3.5 months going on 4 after his arrest. Almost 4 months in jail without a plea.

Just looking back... Sometimes it is worth doing so...

Interesting too to look again at the charges...

(bolding mine)

Yes, particularly the new charge added in February - tampering with a deceased body. DA May has to have something a lot more solid than just KK's word to be confident enough to add the charge.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Thanks for compiling this list!!

I would add these 3 things:

• Bottle of bleach
• Bottle of Simple Green
• Swab of inside of washing machine

Good additions, GK, thanks! And yours are from the search warrants, so easily could be one of those. I was digging around trying to learn if the consumptive evidence had been tied to items already listed in the warrants, or could it be something we don’t know? I haven’t found it said for sure.

And wasn’t this evidence said to be located in Twin Falls, but not easily transported? Did I imagine that?

Anyways, while digging, I found this interesting: ”News 5 asked Mark Pfoff, a former detective in the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office who worked on more than 50 homicide investigations, what that testing means.

“You’re usually looking at some form of body fluids, whether it’s blood or saliva or something like that,” Pfoff said.”
Charges, motions provide preview of evidence against Patrick Frazee

 

[GordianKnot]

Good additions, GK, thanks! And yours are from the search warrants, so easily could be one of those. I was digging around trying to learn if the consumptive evidence had been tied to items already listed in the warrants, or could it be something we don’t know? I haven’t found it said for sure.

And wasn’t this evidence said to be located in Twin Falls, but not easily transported? Did I imagine that?

Anyways, while digging, I found this interesting: ”News 5 asked Mark Pfoff, a former detective in the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office who worked on more than 50 homicide investigations, what that testing means.

“You’re usually looking at some form of body fluids, whether it’s blood or saliva or something like that,” Pfoff said.”
Charges, motions provide preview of evidence against Patrick Frazee

I also distinctly remember something about them trying to determine how best to get evidence transported from ID to CO, but I can't recall if it was the evidence that required consumptive testing or not. I'll see if I can go back and find that reference.

 

[steeltowngirl]

"A consumptive testing hearing was scheduled for Friday and a preliminary hearing for Jan. 29."

"Until his arrest on Dec. 21 on suspicion of murder and solicitation of murder, the girl had been staying with Frazee."

"Prosecutors filed two murder charges because they have different theories. One is that he acted alone to kill Berreth, the other, he alone or with other people killed her during a robbery on November 22nd."

“Felony murder in this case is when you rob someone, and they die during the robbery that is also first degree murder,” 4th Judicial District Attorney, Dan May said."

From:
Patrick Frazee, accused of killing missing fiancee Kelsey Berreth, charged with 5 felony counts

No point, just saying months later, no consumptive testing agreed to yet and no plea/arraignment 3.5 months going on 4 after his arrest. Almost 4 months in jail without a plea.

Just looking back... Sometimes it is worth doing so...

Interesting too to look again at the charges...

It is really weird that PF hasn’t yet entered a not guilty plea. He must be at least speaking, and not refusing to plead, or the judge would have entered it for him. And he already knows the prosecution has a mountain of evidence against him. He must know the strength of the prosecution’s case already. If it is the defense wanting and waiting for the additional evidence testing, it would seem they are trying to see how likely it is that he can ‘beat’ the charges. I don’t know, it’s so puzzling.

 

[MsBetsy]

Thanks for compiling this list!!

I would add these 3 things:

• Bottle of bleach
• Bottle of Simple Green
• Swab of inside of washing machine

There are so many possibilities. We will probably never guess what it is and it will turn out to be something like a tissue that PF used to blow his nose with traces of the victims blood, found in his truck.
What could it have been to be described as urgent initially and later said to be not as urgent as they first believed?

 

[borndem]

I certainly agree with most of this. Having said that, I don't see him raging in public. I see him as putting on a "cool as a cucumber" act/persona. I'm almost certain of it. He will most likely be convicted but sit in jail professing his innocence and how he was "set up" by KK and appealing his conviction, until "the cows come home." Whoops, I forgot, he doesn't have any cattle anymore His buddy, CC, just can't believe he would do such a thing. RS, the father figure, is convinced Kelsey did this to herself and that authorities should be looking for KB's ex bf, a pilot. I think he is arrogant enough to think he can fool everyone into believing he's innocent by keeping his cool and letting his attorney cast doubt on KK's story. When that doesn't work, he'll continue selling that story for the rest of his miserable days from prison. JMO

If I'm wrong, I promise to eat crow, just not CC's crow

bbm
Agreed -- I think he's not just "cool," but cold. He has no heart for anyone but himself. And I don't think that he loves that child as much as he tries to portray. It's a competition, and folks like him simply cannot stand to lose -- at whatever it is.
If I'm (we're) wrong, I'll sit beside you and eat my share of crow pie, too!

 

[GordianKnot]

Good additions, GK, thanks! And yours are from the search warrants, so easily could be one of those. I was digging around trying to learn if the consumptive evidence had been tied to items already listed in the warrants, or could it be something we don’t know? I haven’t found it said for sure.

And wasn’t this evidence said to be located in Twin Falls, but not easily transported? Did I imagine that?

Anyways, while digging, I found this interesting: ”News 5 asked Mark Pfoff, a former detective in the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office who worked on more than 50 homicide investigations, what that testing means.

“You’re usually looking at some form of body fluids, whether it’s blood or saliva or something like that,” Pfoff said.”
Charges, motions provide preview of evidence against Patrick Frazee

So here's what I found from an article back in January:
Kelsey Berreth: Idaho woman suspected of disposing of missing mom's phone - CNN
SFA:
Police in Twin Falls, Idaho, have been trying to return to Colorado evidence of a sensitive nature that was discovered in December, after the FBI asked them to assist in the murder investigation, they said Thursday.

Police would not discuss the evidence further and said they're working with Colorado investigators to determine whether the items should be sent by mail or courier.

Based on this article, at least, it doesn't look like the evidence that was in ID was specifically identified as being consumptive evidence.