CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #57 *ARREST*

[?mysterian?]

SABBM:

That would be an extremely risky move on the defense's part.

Never ask a question of a witness when you don't know what the answer will be, isn't that the general rule of thumb for lawyers, @gitana1 ?

JMO.

And who says they should've lived together? There are plenty of parents that don't live together but share the parenting duties/child custody.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Or somebody got really hungry right in the middle of cleaning up a gruesome crime scene.
Would you be surprised?

Honestly, no, and that speaks volumes to me. But seeing KK in the short vid clip at the Sonic floored me as well.

 

[Dave F.]

I believe you missed the part that 255 witness list will be parred down before trial.

So........if that general list is "parred down" to HALF of it's present size, that specific list is up to the end of the first week of trial. My question stands? Who could possibly be next?
Still just asking. IMO

 

[GordianKnot]

So........if that general list is "parred down" to HALF of it's present size, that specific list is up to the end of the first week of trial. My question stands? Who could possibly be next?
Still just asking. IMO

BBM:

I'm completely lost right now.

Can you please put more words to this?

When you say "that specific list is up to the end of the first week of trial," what does that mean?

When you say, "Who could possibly be next," next to do what?

TIA!

 

[Seattle1]

There has been an unanswered question that the defense will bring up: why didn't KB and PF live together? Did they live apart because KB's parents strongly disapproved of having children and living together before marriage?

KB was a grown woman, and not an ounce of evidence that she or her brother were living for their parent's approval.

I also recall CB stating that PF & KB (well KB anyway) believed they were going to purchase their own place, and the plan failed -- according to PF, because low cattle prices at sale prevented it.

I doubt a juror will blame KB for not wanting to live with her mother-in-law, or fault and/or question her for purchasing her own place, providing for her child. (i.e., this isn't 1950's).

Clearly, PF had no intention of living elsewhere, ever. He sure wasn't providing shelter for KB and his daughter. He allegedly didn't move in to the condo with his family because it was inconvenient.

So no, I don't think this is any bombshell (moral) question the defense will raise. Don't see that at all.

MOO

 

[MassGuy]

KB was a grown woman, and not an ounce of evidence that she or her brother were living for their parent's approval.

I also recall CB stating that PF & KB (well KB anyway) believed they were going to purchase their own place, and the plan failed -- according to PF, because low cattle prices at sale prevented it.

I doubt a juror will blame KB for not wanting to live with her mother-in-law, or fault and/or question her for purchasing her own place, providing for her child.

Clearly, PF had no intention of living elsewhere, ever. He sure wasn't providing shelter for KB and his daughter. He allegedly didn't move in to the condo with his family because it was inconvenient.

So no, I don't think this is any bombshell (moral) question the defense will raise. Don't see that at all.

MOO

Yeah. Plus, who the hell wants to live with Norman and Norma Bates?

 

[gitana1]

I'd stick to his (May) original approach from last Feb. I think his first or last witness should be ma SF.

Mothers immediately get the attention of jurors, and if she refuses to answer questions, that will stay with them during the entire trial: more like if mom won't talk, I'd be suspect of the testimony of any other defense witnesses.

Ooh. Smart.

 

[gitana1]

That could be risky because the defense will be able to cross-examine and get PF's "side" before the jury early on.

When KB first went missing, I think CB trusted PF. Hence the delay before CB sounded the alarm. She has said KB told her she had been helping PF in the wee hours of the night, that they might go to dinner, perhaps get a tree and that she might make a sweet potato casserole. None of that sounds like KB was afraid of PF. CB also referred to him as KB's fiance and there has been nothing mentioned publicly that the couple had a history of conflict. KB and PF seemed to co-parent the baby without arguing about it. There has been an unanswered question that the defense will bring up: why didn't KB and PF live together? Did they live apart because KB's parents strongly disapproved of having children and living together before marriage?

Murders involving domestic violence often have an abusive history that leads up to the murder. This one has no such history.

JMO

The Washington Post found that nearly half of the women who were murdered during the past decade were, like Parnell and Cisneros, killed by a current or former intimate partner. In a close analysis of five cities, about a third of the male killers were known to be a potential threat ahead of the attack.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/domestic-violence-murders/

How do you think their not living together is a point for the defense?

 

[gitana1]

The prosecution lists 255 witnesses, and allows 3 weeks or 15 court days for the trial. At least two of those days have to be alloted for defense summation. That's 20 witnesses that have to be fully processed every single day of the trial, in addition to the other items on the agenda. At most, you have listed fifty potential testifiers. To keep on pace, they would be done by noon break on day two. Whose next?
Just asking. IMO

The state said they’d be whittling down that witness list considerably.

“Prosecutors originally submitted a list of 255 possible witnesses, but today they informed the judge they've reduced that number significantly, in an effort to accomodate a three-week rather than a three-month long trial. A final list will be provided to the defense before jury selection, at the latest.”
Frazee back in court for pre-trial hearing on murder case

Hmm. There appears to be a lot of criticism of the state by some that I don’t totally understand.

 

[MyBelle]

And yet we have examples like Chris and Shanann Watts.

My take on the statistic is: Two thirds of the male killers were not known to be a potential threat prior to the attack.

And Chris Watts led LE to the bodies and pleaded guilty so it isn't a good comparison. I thought the two had a strained relationship just by watching the youtube videos. Friends also immediately pointed the finger at Watts.

That hasn't happened in this case.

JMO

 

[gitana1]

SABBM:

That would be an extremely risky move on the defense's part.

Never ask a question of a witness when you don't know what the answer will be, isn't that the general rule of thumb for lawyers, @gitana1 ?

JMO.

Typically. But I never ask an open-ended question of the opposition’s witness. You don’t want to give them the opportunity to come up with something “kre8tive”.

So I typically have the narrative I want the judge (I do bench trials) to hear and I don’t care what the witness or opposition says. It’s me asking yes or no questions- “Isn’t it true that in fact, you were sent a copy of the judgment you had signed, prior to filing, and you were asked to confirm you wanted it filed with the court? So you’re statement that you were never allowed to see the judgment is indeed, false?

Well let me show you a copy of an email sent to you on 11-28-18. You revived this email, correct? That’s your email address? And it shows you were sent a copy of a signed judgment? And you replied to that email, true? Let’s take a look at a second email. That’s from you, right? And here you say yes, you’re approving that email to be filed, true?”

I don’t care if she answers yes or no. Or I don’t know. I just really want to give my narrative punctuated by her responses and then let the judge see her demeanor. Letting them lie on the stand can be powerful.

But asking a “why” question is just plain stupid, most of the time.

 

[MyBelle]

How do you think their not living together is a point for the defense?

Because a reporter asked the question at the news conference and CB strongly emphasized they never lived together and cited financial reasons why they hadn't married.

JMO

 

[MassGuy]

And Chris Watts led LE to the bodies and pleaded guilty so it isn't a good comparison. I thought the two had a strained relationship just by watching the youtube videos. Friends also immediately pointed the finger at Watts.

That hasn't happened in this case.

JMO

Post offense behavior has absolutely nothing to do with the statistic that is being discussed.

No one saw it coming in the Watts case, to include Shanann’s family.

No friends immediately pointed the finger at Watts, although some did go to law enforcement with concerning behavior they observed in the days after his family’s disappearance.

 

[MyBelle]

KB was a grown woman, and not an ounce of evidence that she or her brother were living for their parent's approval.

I also recall CB stating that PF & KB (well KB anyway) believed they were going to purchase their own place, and the plan failed -- according to PF, because low cattle prices at sale prevented it.

I doubt a juror will blame KB for not wanting to live with her mother-in-law, or fault and/or question her for purchasing her own place, providing for her child. (i.e., this isn't 1950's).

Clearly, PF had no intention of living elsewhere, ever. He sure wasn't providing shelter for KB and his daughter. He allegedly didn't move in to the condo with his family because it was inconvenient.

So no, I don't think this is any bombshell (moral) question the defense will raise. Don't see that at all.

MOO

KB was a grown woman, and not an ounce of evidence that she or her brother were living for their parent's approval.

I also recall CB stating that PF & KB (well KB anyway) believed they were going to purchase their own place, and the plan failed -- according to PF, because low cattle prices at sale prevented it.

I doubt a juror will blame KB for not wanting to live with her mother-in-law, or fault and/or question her for purchasing her own place, providing for her child. (i.e., this isn't 1950's).

Clearly, PF had no intention of living elsewhere, ever. He sure wasn't providing shelter for KB and his daughter. He allegedly didn't move in to the condo with his family because it was inconvenient.

So no, I don't think this is any bombshell (moral) question the defense will raise. Don't see that at all.

MOO

BBM. So do I. Please don't twist what I said into an accusation I'm blaming the victim.

I'm not aware that KB purchased her condo, I thought it was purchased by her parents. My husband and I helped our adult children purchase homes. Our daughter lived in her home a year before she married the father of her three children. He paid half the mortgage. As you point out, it isn't the '50s.

I sure don't agree that living in the condo would be inconvenient for PF. KB told her mother she was helping him with his cattle in the wee hours the night before. That doesn't sound like it was an inconvenient distance for either one of them. I think the jury is going to wonder why-- if PF wanted her dead and "disappeared"--why he didn't kill her during that wee hour trip to the cattle in that wide expanse of Colorado's great outdoors.

JMO

 

[gitana1]

So........if that general list is "parred down" to HALF of it's present size, that specific list is up to the end of the first week of trial. My question stands? Who could possibly be next?
Still just asking. IMO

What’s the point of the question? What do you mean “who could possibly be next?”

These folks know what they’re doing. They’ve conducted a boat load of trials. You don’t usually use all your witnesses or exhibits but if you don’t list all the witnesses you could possible use you don’t get to use one that could have been listed and wasn’t. Not in your case in chief. Do you believe you know better than the prosecution in this case?

And I’m not sure what you’re intending to mean by summation but the defense gets to do more then closing arguments (summation) they also get to call their own witnesses.

Some of the state’s witnesses will be fast. 20-30 minutes. Others will be longer. I believe the trial will go longer because otherwise that leaves the state with only about 7 days for their case in chief, five for the defense, two for opening and closing and one day for rebuttal witnesses. I think that’s could be too tight. Maybe not. Defense might be a lot quicker than that.

But what point are you trying to make here?

 

[steeltowngirl]

And Chris Watts led LE to the bodies and pleaded guilty so it isn't a good comparison. I thought the two had a strained relationship just by watching the youtube videos. Friends also immediately pointed the finger at Watts.

That hasn't happened in this case.

JMO

Fair point. But the comparison that was drawn was “Murders involving domestic violence often have an abusive history that leads up to the murder. This one has no such history.”

The Watts also did not have an abusive history, and there was no indication that Shanann feared CW. She knew they had marital troubles, but she had no idea she was living with a monster.

Kelsey didn’t live with her monster, she was making a life for herself. Like 2/3 of the cases where women are murdered by the men in their lives, she didn’t see it coming.

Not until the end, when all she had left to see was a bat swinging into her face. Or maybe she didn’t see it behind the blindfold. Who knows? But she felt it. You can bet she felt it. Even if for a second, she felt it and she knew the man she once trusted, who she shared a child with, was robbing her of her life. With her child just steps away. Kelsey died not knowing if her child was safe. Her final thoughts may have been that the baby was next.

Fingers were pointed at PF. Starting with Kelsey’s mom. KB’s friends have described an emotionally abusive relationship. I hope to hear more from them at trial.

One more week.
#JusticeForKelsey

 

[?mysterian?]

Fair point. But the comparison that was drawn was “Murders involving domestic violence often have an abusive history that leads up to the murder. This one has no such history.”

The Watts also did not have an abusive history, and there was no indication that Shanann feared CW. She knew they had marital troubles, but she had no idea she was living with a monster.

Kelsey didn’t live with her monster, she was making a life for herself. Like 2/3 of the cases where women are murdered by the men in their lives, she didn’t see it coming.

Not until the end, when all she had left to see was a bat swinging into her face. Or maybe she didn’t see it behind the blindfold. Who knows? But she felt it. You can bet she felt it. Even if for a second, she felt it and she knew the man she once trusted, who she shared a child with, was robbing her of her life. With her child just steps away. Kelsey died not knowing if her child was safe. Her final thoughts may have been that the baby was next.

Fingers were pointed at PF. Starting with Kelsey’s mom. KB’s friends have described an emotionally abusive relationship. I hope to hear more from them at trial.

One more week.
#JusticeForKelsey

Don't forget CPS being called to the hospital after the birth of little KB after PF became enraged enough the nurses delayed bringing little KB to the parents until after CPS investigated. All this has been linked and discussed previously

 

[Colorado303]

And Chris Watts led LE to the bodies and pleaded guilty so it isn't a good comparison. I thought the two had a strained relationship just by watching the youtube videos. Friends also immediately pointed the finger at Watts.

That hasn't happened in this case.

JMO

Friends immediately pointed the finger at CW because of what was found at the house the Monday she went missing and his actions/words that same day. As impossible as it was to believe, the only explanation that made sense was he disappeared her.

If CW had time to stage the house and rehearse his answers a lot of us would still be wondering where she was, hoping she’d return safely soon and sending casseroles over in the meantime.

ETA: IMO they didn’t appear to have a strained relationship on video but CW did appear to be less comfortable in front of the than SW was. She didn’t force him to do them, but he was never going to be a natural. I look extremely uncomfortable any time someone is taping me. Anyone trying to judge the dynamics of my relationship w/others on camera would be convinced it was dysfunctional.

 

[katydid23]

And Chris Watts led LE to the bodies and pleaded guilty so it isn't a good comparison. I thought the two had a strained relationship just by watching the youtube videos. Friends also immediately pointed the finger at Watts.

That hasn't happened in this case.

JMO

What hasn't happened in this case?

You don't think some people privately told LE that they suspected PF of involvement here?

 

[Steelslady]

Such a great question, GK!

I can’t really guess at order, but it got me generally thinking of the key witness list.

Here is a “sort of” order based on chronology of events. Feel free to throw cinnamon rolls at it..

CB
CB2
Coworkers
KB Best friend
KB former bf
PF former gf
Depression clinic rep
Safeway rep
Walmart rep
SF
SF2
Crime scene investigators
Forensics experts
Cell phone expert
Neighbor with surveillance camera
KK aunt
MG
Chad L
KK
CC
RS
Gas station rep
Mark P
Bank Teller
The Rockstahls
Custody interviewer

KK's aunt is a witness?