CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #9

[Curiousobserver]

I’m chuckling a bit at your “make them kill you” but I understand what you mean. The intent is certainly not to die but to make your stand, right there, and fight like hell. It’s something I tell my teen daughter constantly.

The second crime scene is always more violent than the first one.

 

[Colorado303]

Interesting and this seems to confirm he was physically at her house that day. I wonder if he always parked sideways or if that was unusual.

"“I looked up there, and there was both red pickups there Thanksgiving Day. And that was from 12:30 [p.m.] to 1 p.m.,” the neighbor said. “The other two cars were parked with the vehicles facing the apartment, but his was parked sideways behind them.”

Neighbor: Kelsey Berreth is ‘a very kind-hearted person’

Also interesting that the neighbor makes it sound like the only time she saw red pick-up guy was when he was dropping off or picking up the baby. And that had been going on for a while. Even if they weren’t living together, if they were in a healthy relationship you’d think there would have been at least a few times he was just hanging out around there.

It seems to me these two have been “broken up” for a while. Really, other than a baby there’s not much evidence to support they ever had a mutually serious relationship.

MOO

 

[allboys]

When my relative did not answer calls for a couple of days, and later sent me pictures taken during hiking, I never doubted the story. True, the person was not living alone, but the pictures could have been taken anywhere. I noticed that if the text is accompanied by photos, it makes the situation more believable, although photos are easy to fake, time and place-wise.

Here is the thing. KB might have not locked the phone, or her password might have been predictable. And I wonder if one picture, taken whenever but posted on private IG during that day, the 25th, would have put her mom's mind at ease.

I wonder if someone who may have figured out a way to get her phone to Idaho to ping, would also think to use the phone to show “internet activity” between 11/22-11/25. Because “someone” certainly had some time to think of a lot of calculated moves. I hope not. LE needs all the evidence they can get. MOO

 

[gitana1]

Holy cow! What do you base that on? Keep in the mind almost all the "abuse" comments about PF came from one person who appears to be a bit of a crackpot herself.

No. Two people gave detailed and separate accounts of specific abuse that was in the presence of others. A third person said he heard mixed reports about abuse.

You may say that his methods of tying pups on short tethers to fences and allowing them to practically get trampled by cows is common. I don't know. But others who train have said he seemed abusive.

I got that sense.

Further, his attitude toward the media seems in keeping with the reports of animal abuse.

IMO this is an angry man with a temper. I cannot discount what three separate people said about his treatment of animals, coupled with the feeling I got from the dog video and from watching him interact with the media.

He doesn't seem like a nice person to me. His attitude toward those pups was dismissive and cold. I know farmers who have working dogs. I've never seen anything but respect. Maybe not mushy like people with their pets but respect and love.

I don't get that vibe with this person.

Of course everything is colored by the feeling that he is a good suspect for this crime. I can admit that.

 

[PommyMommy]

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
It’s hard to tell. We haven’t been given word of that. However, when we went to her home yesterday, there was red tape on her door dated 12/15/18. It was taped on both the door & its frame, presumably so investigators would know if someone entered her home. #KelseyBerreth

(In response to a non-MSM tweet inquiring about whether KB's home was ruled out as a crime scene.)

 

[Kapua]

$25,000 reward for information from an anonymous donor leading to the recovery of Kelsey. I wouldn't typically seek reward money in a missing person case, but the fact that the single donor is anonymous and the trail for Kelsey seems cold...

I might go looking. Where?

I would try to think like my POI.

"I" have long standing knowledge of the area and hills around Woodland Park and Florissant. I have a truck and get it dirty.

I committed a spontaneous crime of passion. I am in the vicinity of Woodland Park. I may make a call to a person I can trust. Or figure out my next steps on my own. Either way, I have evidence I do not want found that I have to deal with quickly.

I have Thanksgiving plans so my time is limited. I start driving back towards Florissant as a natural instinct. Thinking, where do I go that is remote with little traffic? I may pull over and think. Thinking a place without homes and traffic.

I know route 24 to Florissant is out, too open and too much traffic. Same thing with Rte 67 through Divide, between Woodland Park and Florissant. Can't get close to Florissant or too suspicious. There are lots of dirt roads but most roads have homes, and I risk getting stopped or seen by protective homeowners. I can't just drop evidence on the side of a dirt road since there is ranching and outdoor activity. And the smell of decomposition. In my limited knowledge of these things, I think disposing with water over leaving in open air. But not open water.

I know a place that is remote, the North Catamount reservoir. I head out to the lake. Not to the boat ramp areas, but taking a right onto the dead end shore dirt road leading to the head of the reservoir.

There is an extended swamp area right next to the dirt road. Little chance of traffic on this dead end. Means little chance of discovery, at least that's my thought in my panic.

***

So the north side of North Catamount reservoir might be a place to take a dog for a walk or fly a drone, IMO.

I believe the evidence was dropped within a couple of hours of Kelsey disappearing due to Thanksgiving obligations of some sort, and has not been moved. This is not going to be near Florissant, meaning it's more likely to be close to Woodland Park. Not disposed of over the course of days as could be suggested, involving retrieval and replacement. Too unpleasant and brings a new rash of forensic evidence in a vehicle. Driving on dirt roads is slow, so the potential evidence zone is probably smaller than most think, ie thinking the endless wilderness.

Most likely a hasty action instead of a drawn out well-planned process.

Sometimes we overthink things. I'd go looking. I'd take a drive to the reservoir.

For $25,000.

$25,000 reward offered for missing Colorado woman Kelsey Berreth

Good sleuthing. I think KB is in Colorado and not too far away from her home or PF's. I don't think she's anywhere near Idaho. If her phone was taken there, it was for the purpose of throwing investigators off. IMHO.

 

[PommyMommy]

Hard to tell if the tree would prevent him parking parallel to the other cars. It doesn't look like a very large tree to me, but satellite can be deceiving. Somewhere in one of the early threads a local who lives in the neighborhood posted photos of the front of her house. I wonder if those might give us a better idea of the location and size of the tree and the amount of parking? I'll try to find the posts but if you have them handy post and tag me.

I don't have them. Sorry!
MOO

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

Border collies are used as cattle dogs because it is their instinct to herd animals. In that video he has an experienced dog and 4 pups that are just learning. They already know how to herd instinctively and want to do it. The training is largely about learning the commands from the rancher as to what he wants done with the animals. The pups are chained to the fence because if they aren't they will charge in to herd the cows. He doesn't want that yet. They are on very short leashes so that they cant start to run and get snapped back, but enough leash so they can go under to the other side of the fence to get out of the arena if necessary. He comment about his hand is that he would rather cut off his right hand that be without the dog. ie, the dog is THAT important to him. None of those dogs are scared. Herding dogs nip the back of the legs of animals to get them to move, its what they do, there is nothing abusive about it. Honestly, I think people are just starting to make stuff up now.

I know what I saw. The one dog bit the cows face not hind quarters. also can't unsee how scared the poor pup was.
Also there is more than one person that claim he is not so nice to animals.

 

[UnicornDragon]

Border collies are used as cattle dogs because it is their instinct to herd animals. In that video he has an experienced dog and 4 pups that are just learning. They already know how to herd instinctively and want to do it. The training is largely about learning the commands from the rancher as to what he wants done with the animals. The pups are chained to the fence because if they aren't they will charge in to herd the cows. He doesn't want that yet. They are on very short leashes so that they cant start to run and get snapped back, but enough leash so they can go under to the other side of the fence to get out of the arena if necessary. He comment about his hand is that he would rather cut off his right hand that be without the dog. ie, the dog is THAT important to him. None of those dogs are scared. Herding dogs nip the back of the legs of animals to get them to move, its what they do, there is nothing abusive about it. Honestly, I think people are just starting to make stuff up now.

This. All this. Those are WORKING dogs, not your pet on the sofa. A working bred Border Collie will destroy a house out of boredom.

Was that pet training? No.

Was that pretty standard cattle dog training? Actually, yes.

Again, I suspect PF is somehow involved. But with the evidence released as of now, there's nothing. I'm seeing a lot of fairly normal country farming behavior honestly. And for as odd as it looks to an outsider who is used to urban life, your urban life can be baffling to someone who is used to rural country life.

 

[scdiv]

I have been reading the posts somewhat over the last few days and I have 2 questions that one of you could help me get the answer to.

1: The last date that CB talked to PF was 11/25 and then she waited until 12/02 to call police to say her daughter is missing. Do you know why she waited so long?
2: When PF told CB that KB went to visit her grandma, Do you know if CB started to dial her relatives to find out if any of them had seen or talked with CB, during those 7 days?

TYIA

I feel like I'm the "We don't know the first date that CB talked to PF" police. But we don't! It has never been specified by LE what day CB "reached out to PF and he called her back." I don't even have thoughts on this. Just trying to keep the reported facts straight.

Does it fit with the posts I come across accidentally, in other places, that taking off was typical for her? Not at all. Does it bode well with that tweet stating that she had issues with substances? No, because, sorry, she was pregnant, no drinking, then, possibly, breastfeeding (not sure - interested to know), and then was commuting and working. And she was employed.
<snipped by me for brevity> <BBM>

What tweet?

 

[gitana1]

He may indeed have turned it off. But as I mentioned in another post, that doesn’t put him in the clear. If his phone was on all morning, and then it stops pinging right before the time he went to her house, that’s suspicious in itself. So he’s in a tough spot if he turned it off, and he is in a tough spot if he left it on and with him. If he’s innocent, he could be very quickly cleared if the data shows that his phone traveled to Kelsey’s and then back home for the rest of the day.

Someone in his business, his cell phone is vitally important. It’s how customers reach him. So this guy’s phone - which he turned over voluntarily either out of innocence or arrogance - is going to be the key to clearing him or implicating him, IMHO.

Oh yeah. It's true. Either way he could have a problem.

 

[Kapua]

I just feel that it wouldn’t be difficult for even a stranger to know who to text. If they had her phone, they would see her recent calls and texts and know immediately who to message.

I just checked my texts. My first 5 are from my dad, my mom, my brother, T-Mobile auto text, my husband. All of the contacts are labeled as such too.

Yes, but a stranger would have no reason to establish an alibi. The father of her child (who now has the child) would.

 

[Hopefullyhelpful]

Its easy to confuse fact with fiction. Can someone clarify the following for me.
1. Did the Aunt claim Kelsey and her boyfriend had broke up?
2. Did the Mother claim the two had a loving relationship, never alluding to a break-up?
3. What date did the mother call the boyfriend before reporting Kelsey missing?
4. What date did the employer receive the text stating Kelsey would be gone for a week?

1. Yes - It is my understanding that she repeated what she had been told by PF, was asked by CB (the mother) to retract her statement, which she did.
2. Yes.
3. Mother called on 11/25. Reported daughter missing on 12/2.
4. Texts received by employer and allegedly PF on 11/25. Thus the one week delay in reporting her missing.

 

[jaspermac]

He may indeed have turned it off. But as I mentioned in another post, that doesn’t put him in the clear. If his phone was on all morning, and then it stops pinging right before the time he went to her house, that’s suspicious in itself. So he’s in a tough spot if he turned it off, and he is in a tough spot if he left it on and with him. If he’s innocent, he could be very quickly cleared if the data shows that his phone traveled to Kelsey’s and then back home for the rest of the day.

Someone in his business, his cell phone is vitally important. It’s how customers reach him. So this guy’s phone - which he turned over voluntarily either out of innocence or arrogance - is going to be the key to clearing him or implicating him, IMHO.

But he also has family in LE, who I am sure talk frequently about the dumb mistakes perps make esp with cell phones. So unless it was a completely spur of the moment murder, which often leaves a fair bit of evidence, he probably had it turned off.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Playing devil’s advocate what if $25,000 donation came from PF. Would that change the opinion of those that are 100% sure he’s guilty?

And if you feel he’s guilty and if he’s the 25k donor that makes you feel he’s more guilty....then PF is absolutely correct to not speak to LE or the media. MOO If innocent PFs life is already ruined.

Also having followed this case since the beginning, only verified information I have seen is texts were from KBs phone to her job and PF on 11/25. Mom called PF on 12/2 and shortly after called police and teported KB missing. JMO (but based on MSM and police timelines to arrive at my opinion)

If PF was involved he got a HUGE assist from KBs family and friends that no one noticed (enough) from 11/23 to 12/1 that they hadn’t heard from her/she wasn’t responding to calls and texts. I blame her family and friends for not reporting her missing more than PF (assuming they were not an active couple and her 11/25 text said something along the lines of ‘don’t call me I’ll call you’) Even the information from the aunt (that could be based on CB convo with PF on 12/2) was that PF said KB went to visit family, if any KB relatives heard that info before 12/2, then it’s even more baffling they didn’t report her missing until 12/2.

RBBM
We don't know what the texts (allegedly sent by KB) to her employer or to PF said, only LE IMO. I can't blame anybody for not reporting her missing sooner based on what we just don't know at this point.

KB sounded by all accounts like she was a super busy, young mother. Commuting, working, taking care of a 1 yr old and managing a home wouldn't allow her as much time to stay in constant contact with friends and family.

JMO

 

[1wonderleads2another]

I’m chuckling a bit at your “make them kill you” but I understand what you mean. The intent is certainly not to die but to make your stand, right there, and fight like hell. It’s something I tell my teen daughter constantly.

Yes! You said it better than me. Thank you!

 

[UnicornDragon]

1. Yes - It is my understanding that she repeated what she had been told by PF, was asked by CB (the mother) to retract her statement, which she did.
2. Yes.
3. Mother called on 11/25. Reported daughter missing on 12/2.
4. Texts received by employer and allegedly PF on 11/25. Thus the one week delay in reporting her missing.

3 - I thought from LE, they have shown the first contact between CB and PF was 12/2, which is what prompted the reporting of KB being missing.

 

[Steelslady]

My mother would call my place of employment if she hasn't heard back from me in three days, that is prolly what set her off IMO. I envision -"Wait what? she said she will be gone? She never told me, ok thanks" Calling PF, Hey where's my girl... on trip to see my mom? weird, ok Thanks" Calling Granny/mother "Hey mom, is my girl there? No? she was heading your way, ok thanks" calling LE "I haven't heard from my daughter, her work said she was taking time off, her BF said she was heading to Washington, but my mother hasn't seen her" the rest is what we want to know but LE is playing it safe . . .

I don't think that Kelsey's boss could tell her mother anything legally. In my opinion, LE is the one that found that information. Unless I missed something?

 

[Madison418]

Not to be morbid but if her phone was locked by Touch ID , the perp most likely had access to her finger. (Even if perp was KB) JMO

As others have said you don’t have to know someone well to ID PF and her work # on a cell phone. And unfortunately in many abduction cases victims give the perp information when asked, because the victim thinks if they cooperate they’ll be let go.

That’s why many experts recommend if someone tries to abduct you (whether you know them or not) make them kill you on the spot of the abductuon. 99% of perps don’t want to kill you where they take you or for there to a scene (that nosy neighbor may see) ...they want to take a victim where they can control the environment. Going with an abductor just because they put a gun to your head /knife to your throat doesn’t work out well in vast majority of cases. (Well unless you are Sherri Papini) JMO

That brings up a question - will phone data log indicate whether a phone is unlocked by password, finger or face recognition with the last login? Any technologists that can weigh in here?

 

[jillianelaine]

1. Yes - It is my understanding that she repeated what she had been told by PF, was asked by CB (the mother) to retract her statement, which she did.
2. Yes.
3. Mother called on 11/25. Reported daughter missing on 12/2.
4. Texts received by employer and allegedly PF on 11/25. Thus the one week delay in reporting her missing.[/QUOTE
Thanks! Now I have two additional questions.
1. Has it been determined whether the mother spoke on the phone with him on 11/25?
2. Do we know if those communications to the employer and boyfriend occurred before, or after the mothers call?
** Something I once read led me to believe the mother did not speak with him before 12/2. I guess I must have mixed something up.