CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #9

[jaspermac]

Why can't they take him in for questioning? Can anyone weigh in on this? Help ease my mind...

As others have said you can't make someone come in for questioning unless you arrest them. You can ask them to come in. The police have asked PF to come in and talk to them and he is only communicating through his lawyer. So unless they arrest him, they can't sit him down for questioning. He could agree to come in with his lawyer, but why? So they can fill in the gaps and ask him about contradicting information. He's not going to do that.

 

[Hatfield]

You know, it actually makes sense that they came for the child. No search warrant required. And a show of intimidation.

I hope so and here is why.

I have been worried about the baby because if he is a rancher and if his Mom is not good healthwise then I have been concerned about who is really taking good care of the baby while he is out working the farm.

The grandmom may do a wonderful job at that but if she is not good healthwise herself then I am concerned about the childcare while he has to work out on the farm.

 

[ReadySet]

Just a reminder about the theory of KB purposefully driving herself to Soap Lake: Gooding is 12 miles off her route. Why would she leave I-84 to go into Gooding? There are other places to stop for gas etc. that are really "right off" I-84.
Also, I find it highly improbable that KB would go to see her sick grandmother and not bring grandma's great grand-daughter to see her. Unbelievable to me.

Any theory that attempts to explain what happened to Kelsey has to account for the ping from her phone in Gooding ID. If this were a Hitchcock film that ping would be the plot twist that the entire story hinged on.

If that ping did not exist then it would be simpler to theorize reasons for her absence. But her phone appearing briefly 800 miles and 3 days after her last confirmed sighting creates a specific fact that needs to fit into any accurate theory. Not just fit in, but IMHO explaining that ping explains the entire story.

The ping from Gooding fits well with the early Facebook post from her Aunt that "She broke up with her ex on Thanksgiving, he said she dropped off the baby and was heading to Soap Lake Washington to visit.” Taken at face value that statement means it was PF who reported to her family that she was heading to Soap Lake. I believe that the Aunt later retracted or deleted that Facebook post.

Gooding is roughly 60% of the way between Woodland Park and Soap Lake. Gooding is a completely plausible location for her phone to ping if she was indeed traveling to Soap Lake. It is also a completely plausible location for her phone to ping if someone wants to create the illusion she was traveling to Soap Lake.

How can that ping be explained?

KB has phone (#1): Maybe Kelsey did indeed decide spontaneously to head to Washington without giving her family advance notice. PF's story about her leaving is basically true. Whatever the cause of her disappearance therefore is something unexpected that happens along the way. This theory raises a set of questions that are without answers:

• Her known vehicles are accounted for so how is she traveling?
  
• Why leave child her child behind?
  
• Why doesn't she tell her family she is coming either at the onset of travel or when sending the two text messages?

KB has phone (#2): Maybe Kelsey was indeed heading west but not to Washington. She tells PF that Soap Lake is her destination to conceal some truth from him, perhaps even that she willingly wants to disappear. This has the same problems as the above theory plus creates a new mystery around her true intent.

PF has phone: Some here believe that PF must be behind KB's disappearance. An obvious extension of this belief is that PF must be responsible for creating the ping, likely as a red herring to distract from the truth. The question therefore is could he have transported her phone to Gooding and arrived back in Florissant while producing an alibi for his location and maintaining care for the child in his custody? Assuming no stops it is roughly 24 hours of round-trip driving from his home to Gooding and back. So questions that come from this theory are:

• Could he have driven 1600 miles round-trip, pay cash along the way for any need gas or food, and not be remembered or be caught on video?
  
• What alibi has he produced for his time from the 22nd to the 26th and who corroborates that alibi?

Other theories I consider less likely:

PF accomplice has phone: This suggests a conspiracy between PF and some other party to create this ping, wherein PF stays home and cares for his daughter while his accomplice (for motivation unknown) transports the phone to Gooding. But who then is this co-conspirator to what now seems a complex premeditated criminal conspiracy?

A robo-phone: Several other posters here have theorized various scenarios of apps that send time-delayed texts, ways of turning on a phone remotely, shipping the phone in a package, putting the phone on a west-bound truck, etc. These all seem like very implausible Rube Goldberg solutions to me, which involve many possible risks that the message would not be sent at all. If creating a ping from Southern Idaho was critical to someone attempting to conceal the truth then taking the phone there personally or using an accomplice seem far more reliable.

All five of the above theories imply either that Kelsey told PF she was heading to Soap Lake or that PF invented the story that Kelsey was heading to Soap Lake. There is, however, another possibility.

An abductor has her phone (and possibly KB): PF may indeed have received a message stating that Kelsey was heading to Soap Lake, but it was sent by an abductor who knew enough about KB and her work and relationship with PF to craft messages that would avert suspicions for several days.

I'm sure there are some known facts that don't fit one or more of the above theories and can be used to rule some of them out. But I strongly believe that once the ping from Gooding is understood, then the rest of the story will fall into place.

 

[Colorado303]

Agree. I just meant having 5 vehicles there. What purpose for follow up would you need 5? If it wasn't an arrest? But I guess we don't know for sure if it wasn't the purpose of arrest- what if it was they went there and he wasn't there? Are you

It wouldn’t just be an effort to send a message, although that would be an effect of it.

They had a purpose, and I hope it leads to something.

And there were multiple agencies in that convoy. First out were two unmarked black SUVs (CBI? FBI?), then a Woodland Park Police car followed by Teller County Sheriff vehicle. Last out the gate was another police car from a different jurisdiction that I couldn’t identify.

What kind of thing would cause at least 4 agencies to go back to a cleared scene simultaneously? Or in a case like this is traveling in packs pretty standard?

 

[Mountain Misst]

As long as PMF is a POI and not a suspect, IMO then all eyes need to be open to possibilities. I'm with the ping and will stay there, until convinced otherwise.

Cars at home; then another means of transport is considered. What is her natural environment... the air with lots of mates in the industry I'm sure.

 

[MassGuy]

And there were multiple agencies in that convoy. First out were two unmarked black SUVs (CBI? FBI?), then a Woodland Park Police car followed by Teller County Sheriff vehicle. Last out the gate was another police car from a different jurisdiction that I couldn’t identify.

What kind of thing would cause at least 4 agencies to go back to a cleared scene simultaneously? Or in a case like this is traveling in packs pretty standard?

The initial search was a combined effort. It stands to reason that this would be as well.

 

[Nemellotus]

The Miranda for one.

I assume he is avoiding answering some questions that may point towards guilt?

The following is the standard Miranda warning: "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to speak to an attorney, and to have an attorney present during any questioning.

 

[1wonderleads2another]

Police can't compel anybody to submit to questioning. They can ask you to come in, they can arrest you if they have probable cause, but they can't compel you to answer questions.

Thank you, it’s amazing to me that so many guilty people sit down for interviews with LE then. Though arrogance and a criminal mind often go hand in hand. MOO

 

[Charlot123]

From what I’ve read, there has been no arrest.

Unfortunately.

"My 15% not him is standing". I have a strange feeling that there are almost too many cars. It is if they want to attract attention to him. Putting pressure on him? Or distracting from something else?

Hard to tell at this point. Because we don't know of anyone else in her life, and her life in general. Just have to wait, I guess.

BTW, about the phone, I think if I were to get rid of it, I'd drown it. Not break. So if there is a deep lake next to where it last pinged, the phone might be there, and her purse, too. I bet everything was dumped at the same spot.

 

[CDB]

Law enforcement vehicles seen leaving Patrick Frazee’s home


MOO..
1) the 5 vehicles were two unmarked black suv/suburbans, then three marked police vehicles. Two of the marked vehicles were suvs. One was sedan. All three had different markings. Can anyone make out the difference?

Vehicle one a Black Dodge Drango
Vehicle two was a black Ford Expedition
Vehicle 3 Woodland Park Officer
Vehicle 4 Teller County Sheriff vehicle
Vehicle 5 Was blurry all I could make out was Police in a aqua blue color.

 

[PrairieWind]

No arrest, but I suppose it is possible that he is in one of those vehicles if he's agreed to go in for questioning...but doubtful..

If they are bringing him for questioning and he is in one of those vehicles, they have made a big mistake. He is represented by counsel, they would need to arrange that with his attorney first. I don't think they went there to talk to him. They went there to follow up on something from the original search. Could be anything. I don't read much into the number of vehicles. There are several agencies involved. Police, Sheriff, FBI, CBI. Thats 4 vehicles right there.

 

[Mom24]

For me, not matter what venue I'm working my dog(s). Again, my experience is with German Shepherds. They are my PARTNERS. We work side by side. There is an enormous amount of respect on both sides. They absolutely trust me, as I do them. I do not have experience with cattle but do sheep.

My first GSD, I titled HGH (Herding Utility Dog). This is a German SV title. I do not own a farm but had a dog with strong genetic herding lines and I wanted to have fun.

My second GSD, is my scent detection dog.

Both of my dogs have high prey drive, hunt drive and pack drive. This is what I seek. They have strong working minds and must have a job. At the end of the day however, they relax, settle in the house. Just last night they were on my sofa passed out while I watched a movie.

My friend has dairy cows and she uses her Border Collie to bring them in from the pasture. It's actually very beautiful to watch her work. What's super cool about her story, she was a rescue, owners dumped her, said she was too hyper. The sweet girl just needed a job and a gentle hand.

God bless you! I have tried working with German Shepherds and I love them after they're about 3 or 4, but those years before are just too much for me! We had a German Shepherd mix and even then I found it a bit much to handle. They have amazing energy but wow, you really have to be on top of them!

 

[Occam's Zebra]

The ping in Gooding makes no sense if Kelsey truly went to WA to visit family.

Why?

If she left on 11/22 to visit family, and somehow had a ride (friend's car, spare plane, unicorn), she would have gotten to WA well before 11/25. It's a 19-hour drive, ish. It's not going to take her 3 1/2 days to travel only to Gooding (about 12 hrs from Florissant).

Let's say she made it to WA and was on her way home, then. KB suddenly decides, *right after her mom calls PF to ask about her whereabouts*, to text work and PF (but not her mom) and tell them she's taking a week off? (Well, we don't know what she told PF - only that she told her work she would not be in for the following week.)

1) so she drove to WA and essentially turned around and drove back again?
2) where did she go after she said she wouldn't be at work?

Just, no. If there are NO pings between 11/22 and 11/25, that makes zero sense if KB is traveling. If you're traveling, your phone is generally on (and pinging!). It only makes sense if something nefarious happened, and her phone needed to be off, until it needed to be on to show that she wasn't in Colorado.

 

[whoizzit]

That's right. It's part of the logic behind a survival method called the three t's. Test, threaten, transport. Attackers tend to test a possible victim first to see if they're viable prey. That can be something as innocuous as asking a woman in a dark parking average or as she runs by on a trail, for the time. Or saying hi to her. Does she timidly approach and politely answer? What is her body language and demeanor? My dad taught me to make bold eye contact and be confident and impolite: "I don't know, chief. Go ask a man." I didn't pass his test. Next victim.

For those who do pass the predator test, he moves to the threaten stage. This can be done by using a weapon, making a scary statement or even physically invading the victim's space. So man who asked for the time and got a polite answer is now moving rapidly closer, for example. Maybe blocking the woman from getting around him.

This is when she has to aggressively address the threat- "Get the F away from me!" Or use a weapon on him if he pulls one on you. Etc.

Final stage, transport. Predators virtually never rape or kill someone where they find them. They always take them somewhere else even if it's to drag them feet away behind a car.

Don't let that happen. So you feel someone push a gun or knife against you on the street "You better some with me or I will kill you." As my dad taught me, the proper response is "F you, dude. Kill me now!" The chances or surviving an attack in public are far better than if you allow yourself to be transported. I'd rather be shot in a mall parking lot than put in a trunk and then transported to be repeatedly raped and tortured before I'm killed.

Of course this method of survival is easier to use when the predator is a stranger. What if it's someone you know and don't think badly of?

^^THIS!^^
I may be in love with your dad, G1. We should all be so lucky...

 

[Charlot123]

would PF have access to large animal tranquilizers from his "farm/ranch"?

Great question. A vet has access to Ketamine, not a regular farmer, unless he is licensed to perform some surgeries on his farm, but I doubt. One can easily buy it on the street, though, and now it has been legalized for treatment of depression, although Ketamine clinics are costly. So, not that difficult to obtain it.

 

[MassGuy]

The ping in Gooding makes no sense if Kelsey truly went to WA to visit family.

Why?

If she left on 11/22 to visit family, and somehow had a ride (friend's car, spare plane, unicorn), she would have gotten to WA well before 11/25. It's a 19-hour drive, ish. It's not going to take her 3 1/2 days to travel only to Gooding (about 12 hrs from Florissant).

Let's say she made it to WA and was on her way home, then. KB suddenly decides, *right after her mom calls PF to ask about her whereabouts*, to text work and PF (but not her mom) and tell them she's taking a week off? (Well, we don't know what she told PF - only that she told her work she would not be in for the following week.)

Just, no. If there are NO pings between 11/22 and 11/25, that makes zero sense if KB is traveling. If you're traveling, your phone is generally on (and pinging!). It only makes sense if something nefarious happened, and her phone needed to be off, until it needed to be on to show that she wasn't in Colorado.

That’s where I’m at as well. That phone activity is indicative of foul play and an effort to throw police off that trail.

 

[The Night Watchman]

The ping in Gooding makes no sense if Kelsey truly went to WA to visit family.

Why?

If she left on 11/22 to visit family, and somehow had a ride (friend's car, spare plane, unicorn), she would have gotten to WA well before 11/25. It's a 19-hour drive, ish. It's not going to take her 3 1/2 days to travel only to Gooding (about 12 hrs from Florissant).

Let's say she made it to WA and was on her way home, then. KB suddenly decides, *right after her mom calls PF to ask about her whereabouts*, to text work and PF (but not her mom) and tell them she's taking a week off? (Well, we don't know what she told PF - only that she told her work she would not be in for the following week.)

Just, no. If there are NO pings between 11/22 and 11/25, that makes zero sense if KB is traveling. If you're traveling, your phone is generally on (and pinging!). It only makes sense if something nefarious happened, and her phone needed to be off, until it needed to be on to show that she wasn't in Colorado.

And only one person knew of this "trip". #unicorn

 

[GoJacks]

And there were multiple agencies in that convoy. First out were two unmarked black SUVs (CBI? FBI?), then a Woodland Park Police car followed by Teller County Sheriff vehicle. Last out the gate was another police car from a different jurisdiction that I couldn’t identify.

What kind of thing would cause at least 4 agencies to go back to a cleared scene simultaneously? Or in a case like this is traveling in packs pretty standard?

Last one was woodland park as well. i've seen those po po cars.

 

[PrairieWind]

My gut says there is a stumbling block for LE in this case.

LE thinks PF is involved but has a piece of evidence that contradicts his involvement, most likely from KBs phone or computer and dated between 11/22-1//24 . Or video envidence from surveillance caneras. Or something else that makes PF as perp refutable.

By now they should have both KB and PFs phone records.

LE not even bringing PF in for questioning is odd. (I’m sure he would say nothing but they haven’t tried) In so many cases POI are brought in for questioning. Anyone have guesses on why that hasn’t happened here? (CO law?)

I"m thinking sort of the same. And I wonder if it isn't the ping. Perhaps they have a witness or other evidence that shows he was in Teller County the whole time. The ping then is a big problem for them.

 

[1wonderleads2another]

Just a reminder about the theory of KB purposefully driving herself to Soap Lake: Gooding is 12 miles off her route. Why would she leave I-84 to go into Gooding? There are other places to stop for gas etc. that are really "right off" I-84.
Also, I find it highly improbable that KB would go to see her sick grandmother and not bring grandma's great grand-daughter to see her. Unbelievable to me.

I would imagine there is only one cell tower for the area between 1-84 and Gooding proper. JMO