BBM incarserated IMO
CO - LE peppers sprays rageful 8 yr. old, Lakewood
- Thread starter peeples
- Start date
BBM incarserated IMO
A very interesting story and reminder of the absolute rage that children can display, the very real danger to others and the inability of helping adults to help the child while staying within the law. I've been in this same position about 20 times with police and sadly someone always gets badly hurt. If you haven't witnessed a rage like this, you really can't know.
I'm hopeful this child is now receiving appropriate supervision, monitoring and medication.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110407...5bl9tb3N0X3BvcHVsYXIEc2xrA2NvbG9yYWRvcG9saQ--
Colorado police pepper-spray misbehaving boy, 8
"The staff at the Colorado elementary school said no one could calm 8-year-old Aidan Elliott. He had just thrown a TV and chairs and was now trying to use a cart to bust through a door to an office where teachers had taken some young students for safety. They called the police. The officers found him with a foot-long piece of wood trim with a knife-like point in one hand and a cardboard box in the other...."
more at link
I'm hopeful this child is now receiving appropriate supervision, monitoring and medication.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110407...5bl9tb3N0X3BvcHVsYXIEc2xrA2NvbG9yYWRvcG9saQ--
Colorado police pepper-spray misbehaving boy, 8
"The staff at the Colorado elementary school said no one could calm 8-year-old Aidan Elliott. He had just thrown a TV and chairs and was now trying to use a cart to bust through a door to an office where teachers had taken some young students for safety. They called the police. The officers found him with a foot-long piece of wood trim with a knife-like point in one hand and a cardboard box in the other...."
more at link
LCoastMom
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According to the report, Mandy Elliott asked her son what he did.
When he told her he had been hit with pepper spray, she is quoted as saying, "Well, you probably deserved it."
Wow.. just wow.
I have a neighbor (that I no longer have any contact with) whose daughter was 5 and pulling stunts similar to this boy. She's about 10 - I can't imagine what she is like now.
When he told her he had been hit with pepper spray, she is quoted as saying, "Well, you probably deserved it."
Wow.. just wow.
I have a neighbor (that I no longer have any contact with) whose daughter was 5 and pulling stunts similar to this boy. She's about 10 - I can't imagine what she is like now.
May I weigh in? I've parented three boys (of our 14 children) with severe rage issues. Sadly, schools and LE and even doctors are not prepared or trained to deal with these issues appropriately or safely. IMO, pepper spray was really the safest alternative at the point it was used.
I once had a physically critically ill, mentally ill, suicidal and rageful 10 year old run from the house. He was legally adopted and I'd been taught safe restraints. I bring up that issue as had I been his foster parent, I would not have been allowed to touch him or restrain him--even if he was in physical danger. He'd already broken my pelvis once during a restraint. He was soon found behind a neighbors house, throwing large rocks around. A lunch party was going on inside the house.
Police were called and they contacted me (just as I was on the phone calling them) as it was known who he was. We'd had many many police calls by this point. We all converged on the neighbor's house.
I naively assumed that the police would take him to the hospital but they informed me that they couldn't touch him, due to his age, under 18. We were all in a bind. I'm a very petite woman and I only had my 11 year old daughter with me, who's also quite small. The officer called the station and learned that the only thing he could do was to block our son from leaving. He handed our daughter a pair of zip-ties and explained to us how to put them on my son. He was smashing his head into the patio door and terrifying guests in the house. The officer used his body to kind of corner him and I grabbed his hands and my daughter got the zip-ties on. I then asked how we were to get him in the car. The officer said again that he could not help. My daughter and I struggled for over an hour as he kicked and spit at us. He was actively trying to head butt us.
Finally, through cajoling and singing and soothing talk got him into the front seat. I thought that we almost had it. My daughter scooted in next to him and I jumped into the driver's seat. He went ballistic. He bent down and bit my daughter's arm to the bone (requiring 12 stitches later), turned sideways and kicked me hard with his feet directly in the breasts and then broke the dashboard with his head. My daughter was bleeding, I was in great pain and we were at an impasse. At this point the officer said to get his feet out the side of the car and he'd zip-tie them (I'm assuming breaking the rules). Once that was accomplished, he slammed the door and we were on our own. It was like being locked in a cage with a wild animal.
My husband was away on a trip and I had no other adult to help me. I drove to our house a block away and just sat there crying trying to figure out what to do. I finally called some teen-aged boys I knew (as my older boys were with their Dad) and they came and helped get our son in the house. I called a friend to take our daughter for stitches. But I did not want anyone to see our son in this condition. I called my husband and said I needed him home. He sped home six hours from a camping trip. During those six hours, I called the pediatrician, the psychiatrist, the pharmacist. No one could help. Southern Oregon has no "beds" for children in crisis. They are in Portland--300 miles away, where this child had been many times. I had nine other children to care for that day and so we sang. I couldn't think of anything else to do. The screaming was so loud that several reports were called into police but they didn't come again as they knew who is was. We just sang louder.
My husband arrived home at 1 am and was able to finally release the zip-ties. Our son was getting tired (after about 10 hours straight of screaming and fighting) and my husband is a big man. But once released, our son immediately tried to run. My husband had to hold our son in a restraint for the entire night as he kicked and fought. When he finally collapsed from exhaustion, we took him to the local hospital where he was sent by plane (his fifth flight at $9000 each for Oregon taxpayers) to the Portland Behavioral Unit where he spent 2 weeks, in restraints. It was then on to the State Hospital for 10 months, where he was tied in a wheelchair with his hands in restraints so he could not pull out his central line.
From the time this young man came to us at age 7, there were literally hundreds of events such as this one. 30 lethal suicide attempts, violent rages, no help available. We also have two other sons who've experienced severe rages. My husband has been punched in the face and I've received two concussions in attempting to protect a child from his own rage or to prevent a suicide. Oh, what I would have given for some pepper spray or an injectable sedative.
Now? You'll be as shocked as I am. The son I told of above is a delightful 25 year old who lives independently, takes reasonable care of his health and writes his Momma the sweetest emails and helps his Dad any time he's needed. He has impeccable manners and is respectful of women. He plays bass in a traditional blues band. He pumps gas for a living and has learned to make change. He's been a meth addict but has been officially clean for 38 months. It was a rough road, filled with hospitalizations and therapy and medical procedures. My son is now kind and thoughtful and gentle to his siblings and nieces and nephews. He's decided to live and has very little memory of his childhood, thank goodness. I try to forget too and to just relish how far he's come. We simply refused to give up.
I cannot tell you how many meetings I arranged or committees and boards I sat on, attempting to raise awareness of the special issues pertaining to the out of control mentally ill child. There are no easy answers. Parents and teachers often have little or no support. Police and hospital staff often are prohibited from using restraints. It's an absolute shame.
I once had a physically critically ill, mentally ill, suicidal and rageful 10 year old run from the house. He was legally adopted and I'd been taught safe restraints. I bring up that issue as had I been his foster parent, I would not have been allowed to touch him or restrain him--even if he was in physical danger. He'd already broken my pelvis once during a restraint. He was soon found behind a neighbors house, throwing large rocks around. A lunch party was going on inside the house.
Police were called and they contacted me (just as I was on the phone calling them) as it was known who he was. We'd had many many police calls by this point. We all converged on the neighbor's house.
I naively assumed that the police would take him to the hospital but they informed me that they couldn't touch him, due to his age, under 18. We were all in a bind. I'm a very petite woman and I only had my 11 year old daughter with me, who's also quite small. The officer called the station and learned that the only thing he could do was to block our son from leaving. He handed our daughter a pair of zip-ties and explained to us how to put them on my son. He was smashing his head into the patio door and terrifying guests in the house. The officer used his body to kind of corner him and I grabbed his hands and my daughter got the zip-ties on. I then asked how we were to get him in the car. The officer said again that he could not help. My daughter and I struggled for over an hour as he kicked and spit at us. He was actively trying to head butt us.
Finally, through cajoling and singing and soothing talk got him into the front seat. I thought that we almost had it. My daughter scooted in next to him and I jumped into the driver's seat. He went ballistic. He bent down and bit my daughter's arm to the bone (requiring 12 stitches later), turned sideways and kicked me hard with his feet directly in the breasts and then broke the dashboard with his head. My daughter was bleeding, I was in great pain and we were at an impasse. At this point the officer said to get his feet out the side of the car and he'd zip-tie them (I'm assuming breaking the rules). Once that was accomplished, he slammed the door and we were on our own. It was like being locked in a cage with a wild animal.
My husband was away on a trip and I had no other adult to help me. I drove to our house a block away and just sat there crying trying to figure out what to do. I finally called some teen-aged boys I knew (as my older boys were with their Dad) and they came and helped get our son in the house. I called a friend to take our daughter for stitches. But I did not want anyone to see our son in this condition. I called my husband and said I needed him home. He sped home six hours from a camping trip. During those six hours, I called the pediatrician, the psychiatrist, the pharmacist. No one could help. Southern Oregon has no "beds" for children in crisis. They are in Portland--300 miles away, where this child had been many times. I had nine other children to care for that day and so we sang. I couldn't think of anything else to do. The screaming was so loud that several reports were called into police but they didn't come again as they knew who is was. We just sang louder.
My husband arrived home at 1 am and was able to finally release the zip-ties. Our son was getting tired (after about 10 hours straight of screaming and fighting) and my husband is a big man. But once released, our son immediately tried to run. My husband had to hold our son in a restraint for the entire night as he kicked and fought. When he finally collapsed from exhaustion, we took him to the local hospital where he was sent by plane (his fifth flight at $9000 each for Oregon taxpayers) to the Portland Behavioral Unit where he spent 2 weeks, in restraints. It was then on to the State Hospital for 10 months, where he was tied in a wheelchair with his hands in restraints so he could not pull out his central line.
From the time this young man came to us at age 7, there were literally hundreds of events such as this one. 30 lethal suicide attempts, violent rages, no help available. We also have two other sons who've experienced severe rages. My husband has been punched in the face and I've received two concussions in attempting to protect a child from his own rage or to prevent a suicide. Oh, what I would have given for some pepper spray or an injectable sedative.
Now? You'll be as shocked as I am. The son I told of above is a delightful 25 year old who lives independently, takes reasonable care of his health and writes his Momma the sweetest emails and helps his Dad any time he's needed. He has impeccable manners and is respectful of women. He plays bass in a traditional blues band. He pumps gas for a living and has learned to make change. He's been a meth addict but has been officially clean for 38 months. It was a rough road, filled with hospitalizations and therapy and medical procedures. My son is now kind and thoughtful and gentle to his siblings and nieces and nephews. He's decided to live and has very little memory of his childhood, thank goodness. I try to forget too and to just relish how far he's come. We simply refused to give up.
I cannot tell you how many meetings I arranged or committees and boards I sat on, attempting to raise awareness of the special issues pertaining to the out of control mentally ill child. There are no easy answers. Parents and teachers often have little or no support. Police and hospital staff often are prohibited from using restraints. It's an absolute shame.
Dawnmarie
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I also have an 8 year old with ODD, ADD, and he is very intelligent/analytical. We have always had rules and consequences but as he gets older we have had to be very specific about them. We also have a reward system and focus on positive behaviors. It takes a lot of patience and sense of humor at times and you have to pick your battles or it will make you crazy. We are fortunate that he is not violent, just challenging. I think this boy is screaming out for some discipline!
Tuffy
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Could have done what with a handheld game? I don't think the kid was saying I want a handheld game, he said he wanted to kill them (the adults locked in the room.)
I saw the interview, and the kid seemed to be completely not fazed by being pepper sprayed. When he talked about his eyes burning, he didn't even seem upset. He said, he felt he deserved it.
His mom however; (a piece of work!) seems to feel that they could have talked him down. I'm not so sure about that.
Even at a very young age, kids know that the adults can't touch them. All anyone can do is talk to them, and hope the kid agrees with them. I'm kind of glad that they can subdue him with pepper spray, and not have to lay a hand on him.
If he truly doesn't act out anywhere other than that school, it's best that he's out of there now. The rest of the kids, and the staff members, shouldn't have to deal with that.
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This child may well have some severe behavioral issues (ODD etc) or undiagnosed mental illness. Many mental illnesses cannot be "offically" diagnosed in children so young.
My nephew has been on meds for several years. He has alternately and sometimes simulatneously been diagnosed as ADD, ADHD, ODD, and some sort of hpyersensetivy to noise and ruccus (can't remember the letters for that). My sister has had to pull him from school and homeschool him beccause the school called her daily to come get him and refused to institute and IAP.
Nephew has severe anger control issues, is quite large for his ten years and now after all the years of medication is also overweight. His therapists and parents supect he is bipolar, but no official diagnosis can be made on that til he is older. The cocktail this child is on to keep him from hurting himself and others is frightening. There are no higher dosages that he can be put on. We all fear what will happen when these particular dosages stop being effective (as tends to happen with these drugs).
I can't blame them for pepper spraying the child in this thread. Until you have dealt with a child such as this you really cannot understand the absolute rage and how dangerous these kids can be to themselves and others. No one I have ever heard of has died from a dose of pepper spray. If it stopped the kid from his dangerous antics and calmed/shocked him enough for the adults to get him into control, then it was effective.
There are no easy answers to this one. There is a part of me who feels that mom has enabled and helped to create this behavior. It also sounds to me like this school does not have an IAP in place to deal with this child's anger issues. Perhaps they should. If they already do, it doesn't appear to be very effective and maybe could use some tweaking.
My nephew has been on meds for several years. He has alternately and sometimes simulatneously been diagnosed as ADD, ADHD, ODD, and some sort of hpyersensetivy to noise and ruccus (can't remember the letters for that). My sister has had to pull him from school and homeschool him beccause the school called her daily to come get him and refused to institute and IAP.
Nephew has severe anger control issues, is quite large for his ten years and now after all the years of medication is also overweight. His therapists and parents supect he is bipolar, but no official diagnosis can be made on that til he is older. The cocktail this child is on to keep him from hurting himself and others is frightening. There are no higher dosages that he can be put on. We all fear what will happen when these particular dosages stop being effective (as tends to happen with these drugs).
I can't blame them for pepper spraying the child in this thread. Until you have dealt with a child such as this you really cannot understand the absolute rage and how dangerous these kids can be to themselves and others. No one I have ever heard of has died from a dose of pepper spray. If it stopped the kid from his dangerous antics and calmed/shocked him enough for the adults to get him into control, then it was effective.
There are no easy answers to this one. There is a part of me who feels that mom has enabled and helped to create this behavior. It also sounds to me like this school does not have an IAP in place to deal with this child's anger issues. Perhaps they should. If they already do, it doesn't appear to be very effective and maybe could use some tweaking.
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I cannot blame the cops for using the pepper spray instead of 'talking down' the angry kid. This was their 3rd visit to the school for this same child. They are not psychologists. They do not have to go and 'talk' their way through these situations because it is like they are being held hostage by the kid. To talk him down you have to give in to a lot of his demands. This child, no matter his age, has learned to threaten physical harm to others to get his way and to get control of an entire school and even to try and control 3 police officers. I applaud the cops for taking control of the situation and showing the boy that he was NOT in control any longer. Hopefully he will remember that next time he loses his temper.
Kimberlyd125
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IMO there should never be a reason to pepper spray an 8 year old!
If an adult, or several adults can not overpower an 8 year old (even if he has a sharp stick) those adults had no business in that job.
I've controlled an enraged 9 year old before in a before school program. The child has since been diagnosed with multiple mental issues and is on very potent meds.
It was part of my job. I was trained to deal with his outbursts.
If this has happened before, there should have been a better plan in place for the adults taking care of him.
Pepper spraying a second grader is abuse. No matter how enraged he was.
JMO
If an adult, or several adults can not overpower an 8 year old (even if he has a sharp stick) those adults had no business in that job.
I've controlled an enraged 9 year old before in a before school program. The child has since been diagnosed with multiple mental issues and is on very potent meds.
It was part of my job. I was trained to deal with his outbursts.
If this has happened before, there should have been a better plan in place for the adults taking care of him.
Pepper spraying a second grader is abuse. No matter how enraged he was.
JMO
Tuffy
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I don't know if I, as a teacher, would have engaged this kid:
I have worked with kids with behavior issues, and yes, the teachers have a plan to follow.
I think an "irritated face" and no injuries, or even hurt feelings, was a good outcome.
I have worked with kids with behavior issues, and yes, the teachers have a plan to follow.
I think an "irritated face" and no injuries, or even hurt feelings, was a good outcome.
Kimberlyd125
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Some kids can't control their temper.
No doubt this kid has issues.
But, IMO it's a sad day when cops have to resort to using pepper spray on an 8 year old.
No doubt this kid has issues.
But, IMO it's a sad day when cops have to resort to using pepper spray on an 8 year old.
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Obviously the cops COULD have overpowered the kid. No problem at all. But in doing so there is a good chance the kid would have been injured. Why should a cop be put in that position?
I think they made the right decision. The kid was threatening TO KILL his teachers. There should be accountability for that kind of behavior, imo. If you arm yourself with pointed sticks and curse and threaten death to others then prepare to be dealt with HARSHLY. There was no permanent physical damage done with the pepper spray, he was just left with the harsh memories and that is a good thing imo.
I guess abuse goes both ways. If this kid is going to abuse his teachers then abuse will be coming back at him. That is the way the world works. He set this up for himself by having the cops called for THE THIRD TIME. I think something had to be done to change this kids routine. imo
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I don't think they had to but I think they have very limited options these days.
That kid was not going to back down. They tried talking first and he said NO WAY.
At that point the cops could easily disarm the kid by force, but would that have been any better, PR wise? What if the kid was hurt? It is hard to prevent a small child from being injured if they are fighting back at their full strength because an adult cannot perfectly adjust their own strength.
I think it is a big burden to place upon a cop to ask him to physically disarm a kid who is raging. He could lose his job and his reputation if the child's arm is broken accidentally.
I think pepper spray is the perfect choice, imo.
Kimberlyd125
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I'm not really concerned with PR.
I'm more concerned with the child. Pepper spray is just as abusive (or even more so) than physically subduing the child IMO.
It is not difficult to control a child and hold them down without breaking limbs.
I think the cops chose the easy way out because they were simply tired of the hassle.
As far as the cop's reputation, I think more damage was done by spraying a second grader in the eyes with pepper.
If this child can not control his anger due to a mental imbalance, what does inflicting pain to him accomplish? Nothing. He will do it again if he can not control it.
Many kids go years undiagnosed.
I'm more concerned with the child. Pepper spray is just as abusive (or even more so) than physically subduing the child IMO.
It is not difficult to control a child and hold them down without breaking limbs.
I think the cops chose the easy way out because they were simply tired of the hassle.
As far as the cop's reputation, I think more damage was done by spraying a second grader in the eyes with pepper.
If this child can not control his anger due to a mental imbalance, what does inflicting pain to him accomplish? Nothing. He will do it again if he can not control it.
Many kids go years undiagnosed.
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Apparently the child's mother is concerned with PR because she has been hitting the news shows with her child and her mother in tow. The boy has been quizzed by various newscasters about 'his rage' and his problems in school. In my opinion more damage has been done with this tactic than with the pepper spray incident.
And i respectfully disagree that it is 'not difficult' to control a raging child. They can bite and scratch and to prevent that you have to hold their arms and legs and head and neck forcefully. That can be very painful and very abusive in itself. And it often creates even more rage. So I see the pepper spray as a good choice in that it stops the rage instantly as the child has to deal with the incident, with no further physical contact or force necessary.
And I agree, the cops probably were tired of the hassle. Surely they have better and more important crimes to deal with. They should not have to go three times to a second grade class because of a child making death threats towards his teachers. If he truly cannot control his anger then he needs bigger help than this school and these cops can provide. But that does not make the cops wrong for making the choice they did, imo.
I have a feeling that if one of them jumped the kid and overpowered him and grappled the wooden nailed stick away from him we would still be hearing his mothers complaints.
Kimberlyd125
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Not concerned with the mother's PR either.
Tuffy
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I don't think the kid has a mental imbalance, though. Mom said she's had him checked out. He was taken to the hospital, and examined. They said he had no mental health issues.
Kimberlyd125
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http://www.tbotech.com/blog/index.php/2009/09/the-dangerous-effects-of-pepper-spray/
The Dangerous Effects of Pepper Spray
Pepper spray use is not to be taken lightly because its effects can be severely harmful.
Skin:
The victim will experience an excruciating, burning sensation on the affected areas. Skin may also redden, swell, and even blister as a severe complication of pepper spray exposure.
Respiration:
Victims could suffer from bouts of dry cough, gagging, and wheezing. They could experience a burning sensation in their throat and difficulties with breathing and speaking.
If applied nasally, more ill effects follow. The victim could also start sneezing, experience greater irritation in the affected area, and suffer from reflex mucus secretion, which basically means suffering from a runny nose due to pepper spray exposure.
Directly inhaling pepper spray may also result to acute hypertension, which possibly leads to headaches and greater risk of having a heart attack. Other rare and severe respiratory complications include asystole, atrioventricular blockade, bradycardia, systemic vasodilation, apnea, and airway edema and constriction.
Eyes:
Your eyes are arguably the most vulnerable to pepper spray exposure. When directly targeted, they will start to redden, swell, and sting unbearably. Victims will also suffer from blepharospasm, lacrimation, and conjuctival inflammation. Reflex or involuntary closing of eyelids is also possible.
Affected eyes may also suffer from superficial anesthesia and deficient blink reflex, which will then result to inevitable corneal abrasions from contact lenses and other foreign objects.
Obviously, pepper spray effects are far from trivial so use them wisely.
***More at link: At this was done to an 8 year old.
The Dangerous Effects of Pepper Spray
Pepper spray use is not to be taken lightly because its effects can be severely harmful.
Skin:
The victim will experience an excruciating, burning sensation on the affected areas. Skin may also redden, swell, and even blister as a severe complication of pepper spray exposure.
Respiration:
Victims could suffer from bouts of dry cough, gagging, and wheezing. They could experience a burning sensation in their throat and difficulties with breathing and speaking.
If applied nasally, more ill effects follow. The victim could also start sneezing, experience greater irritation in the affected area, and suffer from reflex mucus secretion, which basically means suffering from a runny nose due to pepper spray exposure.
Directly inhaling pepper spray may also result to acute hypertension, which possibly leads to headaches and greater risk of having a heart attack. Other rare and severe respiratory complications include asystole, atrioventricular blockade, bradycardia, systemic vasodilation, apnea, and airway edema and constriction.
Eyes:
Your eyes are arguably the most vulnerable to pepper spray exposure. When directly targeted, they will start to redden, swell, and sting unbearably. Victims will also suffer from blepharospasm, lacrimation, and conjuctival inflammation. Reflex or involuntary closing of eyelids is also possible.
Affected eyes may also suffer from superficial anesthesia and deficient blink reflex, which will then result to inevitable corneal abrasions from contact lenses and other foreign objects.
Obviously, pepper spray effects are far from trivial so use them wisely.
***More at link: At this was done to an 8 year old.
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