CO - LE peppers sprays rageful 8 yr. old, Lakewood

[Kimberlyd125]

I don't think the kid has a mental imbalance, though. Mom said she's had him checked out. He was taken to the hospital, and examined. They said he had no mental health issues.

It can take YEARS to diagnose mental imbalances in children.

 

[katydid23]

It seems like the cops must have used it sparingly because the kid has no harmful after effects. He has been on a few shows since then and they said there were no problems afterwards.

 

[southcitymom]

May I weigh in? I've parented three boys (of our 14 children) with severe rage issues. Sadly, schools and LE and even doctors are not prepared or trained to deal with these issues appropriately or safely. IMO, pepper spray was really the safest alternative at the point it was used.

I once had a physically critically ill, mentally ill, suicidal and rageful 10 year old run from the house. He was legally adopted and I'd been taught safe restraints. I bring up that issue as had I been his foster parent, I would not have been allowed to touch him or restrain him--even if he was in physical danger. He'd already broken my pelvis once during a restraint. He was soon found behind a neighbors house, throwing large rocks around. A lunch party was going on inside the house.

Police were called and they contacted me (just as I was on the phone calling them) as it was known who he was. We'd had many many police calls by this point. We all converged on the neighbor's house.

I naively assumed that the police would take him to the hospital but they informed me that they couldn't touch him, due to his age, under 18. We were all in a bind. I'm a very petite woman and I only had my 11 year old daughter with me, who's also quite small. The officer called the station and learned that the only thing he could do was to block our son from leaving. He handed our daughter a pair of zip-ties and explained to us how to put them on my son. He was smashing his head into the patio door and terrifying guests in the house. The officer used his body to kind of corner him and I grabbed his hands and my daughter got the zip-ties on. I then asked how we were to get him in the car. The officer said again that he could not help. My daughter and I struggled for over an hour as he kicked and spit at us. He was actively trying to head butt us.

Finally, through cajoling and singing and soothing talk got him into the front seat. I thought that we almost had it. My daughter scooted in next to him and I jumped into the driver's seat. He went ballistic. He bent down and bit my daughter's arm to the bone (requiring 12 stitches later), turned sideways and kicked me hard with his feet directly in the breasts and then broke the dashboard with his head. My daughter was bleeding, I was in great pain and we were at an impasse. At this point the officer said to get his feet out the side of the car and he'd zip-tie them (I'm assuming breaking the rules). Once that was accomplished, he slammed the door and we were on our own. It was like being locked in a cage with a wild animal.

My husband was away on a trip and I had no other adult to help me. I drove to our house a block away and just sat there crying trying to figure out what to do. I finally called some teen-aged boys I knew (as my older boys were with their Dad) and they came and helped get our son in the house. I called a friend to take our daughter for stitches. But I did not want anyone to see our son in this condition. I called my husband and said I needed him home. He sped home six hours from a camping trip. During those six hours, I called the pediatrician, the psychiatrist, the pharmacist. No one could help. Southern Oregon has no "beds" for children in crisis. They are in Portland--300 miles away, where this child had been many times. I had nine other children to care for that day and so we sang. I couldn't think of anything else to do. The screaming was so loud that several reports were called into police but they didn't come again as they knew who is was. We just sang louder.

My husband arrived home at 1 am and was able to finally release the zip-ties. Our son was getting tired (after about 10 hours straight of screaming and fighting) and my husband is a big man. But once released, our son immediately tried to run. My husband had to hold our son in a restraint for the entire night as he kicked and fought. When he finally collapsed from exhaustion, we took him to the local hospital where he was sent by plane (his fifth flight at $9000 each for Oregon taxpayers) to the Portland Behavioral Unit where he spent 2 weeks, in restraints. It was then on to the State Hospital for 10 months, where he was tied in a wheelchair with his hands in restraints so he could not pull out his central line.

From the time this young man came to us at age 7, there were literally hundreds of events such as this one. 30 lethal suicide attempts, violent rages, no help available. We also have two other sons who've experienced severe rages. My husband has been punched in the face and I've received two concussions in attempting to protect a child from his own rage or to prevent a suicide. Oh, what I would have given for some pepper spray or an injectable sedative.

Now? You'll be as shocked as I am. The son I told of above is a delightful 25 year old who lives independently, takes reasonable care of his health and writes his Momma the sweetest emails and helps his Dad any time he's needed. He has impeccable manners and is respectful of women. He plays bass in a traditional blues band. He pumps gas for a living and has learned to make change. He's been a meth addict but has been officially clean for 38 months. It was a rough road, filled with hospitalizations and therapy and medical procedures. My son is now kind and thoughtful and gentle to his siblings and nieces and nephews. He's decided to live and has very little memory of his childhood, thank goodness. I try to forget too and to just relish how far he's come. We simply refused to give up.

I cannot tell you how many meetings I arranged or committees and boards I sat on, attempting to raise awareness of the special issues pertaining to the out of control mentally ill child. There are no easy answers. Parents and teachers often have little or no support. Police and hospital staff often are prohibited from using restraints. It's an absolute shame.

Often, when I read about what you and your family have been willing to do for the "castaways" of our society, I want to come through the computer and kiss you.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

http://ufppc.org/local-news-mainmen...uld-never-be-used-on-nonviolent-subjects.html

During the past decade, OC sprays have become popular with law enforcement and corrections personnel as non-lethal deterrent agents. But there is no real scientific basis for the claim that OC sprays are relatively safe. In fact, a number of reports have associated serious adverse sequelae, including death, with legitimate use, as well as misuse and abuse, of these sprays.



Serious adverse health effects, even death, have followed the use of OC sprays. These sprays should be regarded as poisons or weapons and kept away from children and teenagers.(17) The risks of OC spray use by adults for self defense has not been studied, and its effectiveness as a crime deterrent is unknown.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

It seems like the cops must have used it sparingly because the kid has no harmful after effects. He has been on a few shows since then and they said there were no problems afterwards.

Perhaps the child just got lucky.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

http://articles.sfgate.com/1997-11-...er-spray-spray-s-active-ingredient-heart-rate

A husband and wife team of retired researchers yesterday called for a moratorium on the police use of pepper spray based on their findings that the spray's active ingredient has caused heart failure in tests with laboratory animals.

According to the retired doctors, Hazel and John Coleridge, the naturally occurring substance that causes the "heat" in red peppers is one of the most powerful pain-inducing agents known.

The scientists, both emeritus professors at the University of California at San Francisco, claim that the substance "capsaicin" can bring possibly fatal decreases in blood pressure and heart rate.

***more at link

:waitasec: and this should even be considered as acceptable to use on an 8 year old???? What am I missing here.

 

[katydid23]

I am assuming that they used very little of the caustic substance. From what the family has reported there have been no physical problems from the incident. So it seems that the cops were very cautious with it's use.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

It should not have been used on a child to begin with IMO.
IMO that should be a crime.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I am assuming that they used very little of the caustic substance. From what the family has reported there have been no physical problems from the incident. So it seems that the cops were very cautious with it's use.

They sprayed him twice.

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpps/ne...er-dpgonc-20110405-fc_12631527?obref=obinsite

(NewsCore) - Police used pepper spray twice on a Lakewood, Colo., second grader who threatened them with a sharpened piece of wood after teachers called for backup when the boy had a tantrum.

 

[katydid23]

It should not have been used on a child to begin with IMO.
IMO that should be a crime.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Personally, I see it more as a judgement call on LE's part. They had very few options, none of them good ones. I feel that they did the best they could under difficult circumstances. Blaming them is unfair, imo.
Mom KNEW the cops had to be called on two previous occasions because of his out of control temper. Maybe this is not the best school setting for him.

 

[katydid23]

They sprayed him twice.

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpps/ne...er-dpgonc-20110405-fc_12631527?obref=obinsite

(NewsCore) - Police used pepper spray twice on a Lakewood, Colo., second grader who threatened them with a sharpened piece of wood after teachers called for backup when the boy had a tantrum.

They used it twice and it still left him with no harmful aftereffects so I guess they made the correct decision in the end.

If one of the grown up uniformed officers had tried to wrestle with him it would have been WORSE, imo.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Personally, I see it more as a judgement call on LE's part. They had very few options, none of them good ones. I feel that they did the best they could under difficult circumstances. Blaming them is unfair, imo.
Mom KNEW the cops had to be called on two previous occasions because of his out of control temper. Maybe this is not the best school setting for him.

It was a special school for children who have social and behavioral problems. I think he fits that description.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

They used it twice and it still left him with no harmful aftereffects so I guess they made the correct decision in the end.

If one of the grown up uniformed officers had tried to wrestle with him it would have been WORSE, imo.

But it COULD HAVE. That's my point. It could have caused blisters on his skin. It could have caused permanent damage to his eyes. It could have made him STOP BREATHING. It could have made his heart stop.
It could have KILLED THIS CHILD!!!!!

That's a right decision?

I'd much rather a uniformed officer wrestle my child down to the ground than to spray them with a substance that could kill them.

I really wish there would be an ivestigation and this would STOP. No reason an 8 year old should be sprayed with this stuff.

I mean, I have brought forward several links that say a shot of pepper spray could be fatal. That's pretty strong force on an 8 year old.

What if he would have died? What would we be saying then?

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Ok, I have a question.

If this would have happened at this childs home, and his mother would have been the one to spray him, would it be child abuse??? YES

Just because a man in uniform does it, does not mean it's right.

 

[katydid23]

It was a special school for children who have social and behavioral problems. I think he fits that description.

EXACTLY. He is in a special school for kids with behavioral issues and still he has his two teachers barricaded in another room for fear of their own safety. And he had already been separated from all of the other students earlier that day because he threatened them as well. This was the third time the school had to call in LE for help. So again I say, maybe this is not the best school setting for him. It does not seem to be working out that well. I think it is unfair to blame the cops. They are not psychologists or educators, just law enforcement officers. No matter how old somebody is, threatening someone else with physical harm while brandishing a weapon is illegal.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I see it as a school that is supposed to be able to handle this type of situation, failing to do their job.
I understand that what the child did is illegal. He's still an 8 year old child. I believe he has mental issues and is just pre-diagnosis.
I believe putting a child through this much pain and the possiblity of death for something he can not help is cruel and unusual punishment.

The cops did not handle this correctly IMO.

If it does not bother some here that this child could have died or been seriously injured by cops at 8 years old, I just don't know what to say.

THIS is a CHILD.

Pepper spraying a second grader should be ILLEGAL and these cops should be on unpaid leave IMO.

 

[peeples]

I don't know whether the 8 yr old should have been pepper sprayed or not. I wasn't there.
I do have a 10 yr old with severe issues. At home we can do whatever is necessary to keep ourselves and our other smaller children safe. I have pepper sprayed someone, it was not my child, but a drunk stranger who thought our home was his. I can't imagine a time where I would pepper spray my son. He's past the age of 8 though now and we managed without hurting him in any way and only having to utilize bear hug holds (boy have i had some chest bruises from head butts). 4 months ago, the police were called on him at school. I really wish they would have contacted me first and allowed me the chance to 'talk him down" if you will, but they didn't. He picked up a paper shredder and threw it at the principle he ran out of the school, then back in, and continued his rampage. Our school has something called a MANT team and they are trained to deal with issues like this. However his behavior was SOOO over the top they couldn't deal. They locked him in an office and called the police. I wasn't called until after the police had been there about 10 minutes. The police called in a school liason officer and she was able to talk him into calming down. He never had a problem like that before and hasn't had one again like that to date. We still do not know what set him off.
I am grateful they talked him into calming down. If they felt their only option was to spray him I don't know how i would have felt. I probably would have been angry I wasn't contacted first, i think other options FOR MY SON should be exhausted before resorting to something like that..
Anyway my $.02

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I don't know whether the 8 yr old should have been pepper sprayed or not. I wasn't there.
I do have a 10 yr old with severe issues. At home we can do whatever is necessary to keep ourselves and our other smaller children safe. I have pepper sprayed someone, it was not my child, but a drunk stranger who thought our home was his. I can't imagine a time where I would pepper spray my son. He's past the age of 8 though now and we managed without hurting him in any way and only having to utilize bear hug holds (boy have i had some chest bruises from head butts). 4 months ago, the police were called on him at school. I really wish they would have contacted me first and allowed me the chance to 'talk him down" if you will, but they didn't. He picked up a paper shredder and threw it at the principle he ran out of the school, then back in, and continued his rampage. Our school has something called a MANT team and they are trained to deal with issues like this. However his behavior was SOOO over the top they couldn't deal. They locked him in an office and called the police. I wasn't called until after the police had been there about 10 minutes. The police called in a school liason officer and she was able to talk him into calming down. He never had a problem like that before and hasn't had one again like that to date. We still do not know what set him off.
I am grateful they talked him into calming down. If they felt their only option was to spray him I don't know how i would have felt. I probably would have been angry I wasn't contacted first, i think other options FOR MY SON should be exhausted before resorting to something like that..
Anyway my $.02

You and your son will be in my prayers. So sad when we must resort to physical restraint. Bear Hugs always worked for me too. And I agree, there is a risk that you may get a chest bruise or two, but well worth preventing a child from hurting himself or someone else.

I've been biten while doing a bear hug before (4 year old). Not pleasant at all. I've been head butted (nine year old). Not pleasant.
But I would much rather that than to see a child go through severe pain and physical risk from being sprayed in the face with pepper.

 

[southcitymom]

It's hard to know. I have a large 8-year-old - he has "anger issues" like every human being, but they are just normal, garden variety, 8-year-old boy anger issues. I've never been faced something like this - the way this child was behaving.

Still, I will say that I feel like I personally could sneak up on a large 8-year-old boy and disarm him. I really do - and I'm not huge or anything (5'6" - 160), but still - I think I could get the job done without pepper spray.

 

[tlcya]

I was not aware he was attending a school that was touted as being geared towards children with anger or behavioral issues. This troubles me as I can see your average elementary school staff being unable or uneducated in how to difuse this situation before it escalated to calling the cops. I have a little more trouble with staff at a school that is specifically earmarked for handling "dificult" kids with problems having to call the police to the school on three seperate occassions. Either this kids problems are very very severe or the staff at this school are not very well trained for handling this sort of scenerio. If they are a school geared towards kids with issues, you would expect them to be better at handling such a meltdown than your average school. Or at least I would.