CO - Possible Serial Shooter Has Colorado Drivers on Edge #3

[Hatfield]

In NOCO, to consider the possibility of a faulty window raising mechanism, we would need to see that MOST of the mystery window shatterings were in vehicles that had automatic power windows. Do we have enough statistics from the NOCO incidents to determine if most of those vehicles had power windows?

We could eliminate that possibility if we could determine that a lot of them had manual windows.

 

[Hatfield]

I couldn't find the old article about "bad glass" but I did find one article about using glass in road resurfacing. So one other possibility that I have been considering lately if maybe some road work in NOCO began using a bad mix of paving materials that is causing small chunks to fly up and break people's car windows. Maybe even glass chunks in the road flying up. Glass on glass probably could cause breakage.

I always found it so strange that paving materials will use glass itself in the paving material. If you ever have seen shiny particles shining back at you from the road in the sun, then this is probably a road that uses recycled glass in the road surface as its getting quite common.

If the paving companies began using too high a percentage of glass or some other material in their "mix" then maybe small little chunks are being flung up from the road into vehicles. The DOT would never want to admit their own roads would cause the shatterings and there could be a big coverup along those lines. Link below shows glass being used in some mixes.

The problem again with these theories is someone would have to investigate and prove it though. We are so dependent on investigators doing a thorough job and getting to the bottom of it. Which is what they need to do.
We don't mind whatever the real answer is. But we cannot keep accepting road debris without some sort of proof.

http://www.pca.state.mn.us/index.ph...ment-innovations/glass-as-road-aggregate.html

 

[Foxfire]

It seems like it is an easy scapegoat for LE to just declare "Road Debris" is the cause of any incidents where they have not been able to determine anything else. That is so not fair and they owe the public more than just saying that if any are truly road debris. Like they could say they found the piece of wood laying in the road near where the car window was shattered if road debris is suspected.
I would prefer LE to just say they don't know what caused it rather than always assuming road debris.

Due to the sheer numbers of incidents in NOCO, I do think investigators need to consider and do more investigation into possibilities like maybe bad Auto Glass was shipped in a certain year OR maybe there is some sort of default with power window mechanisms.

I have found examples where a certain make and model had window shattering incidents due to faulty equipment or bad glass. Links below.

But LE needs to do that sort of investigation if something like that is causing some of these in NOCO.

They should not just be declaring "Road Debris" without providing evidence of that. I would much prefer them to say they just don't know what caused them. They need to be honest with public and do more homework on these incidents.

http://www.fordproblems.com/trends/exploding-windows/

http://www.odyclub.com/forums/9-problems-concerns/972-anyone-s-sliding-door-window-shattering.html

ETA-The makes and models of vehicles involved are pretty random but if a faulty part in the window raising mechanism is shared by different manufactures, it could still be some sort of faulty part that affects multiple makes and models.

Just think of all the recalls we have had like the Air Bag recall that affected many different makes and models because a lot of them used the same manufacturer.

In NOCO, to consider the possibility of a faulty window raising mechanism, we would need to see that MOST of the mystery window shatterings were in vehicles that had automatic power windows. Do we have enough statistics from the NOCO incidents to determine if most of those vehicles had power windows?

We could eliminate that possibility if we could determine that a lot of them had manual windows.

Hatfield, if that were the case, the window shatterings would not be isolated to one geographical area on I-25. In the MI shooter case, lab tests were required to determine that the window shatterings were caused by gunshots.. Frangible ammo, imo..

 

[Forager]

Could some of the shatterings possibly linked the the copycats they've just arrested, in terms of where they had been active?

There had been those seven sling shot attacks vs vehicles on Saturday, but I don't think that any of them were among the four I-10 window shatterings that LE said were caused by road debris. The sling shot attacks were well west of the four cited by Fox.

 

[Forager]

In NOCO, to consider the possibility of a faulty window raising mechanism, we would need to see that MOST of the mystery window shatterings were in vehicles that had automatic power windows. Do we have enough statistics from the NOCO incidents to determine if most of those vehicles had power windows?

We could eliminate that possibility if we could determine that a lot of them had manual windows.

You've got to get out more, Rip Van Winkle! There can't be more than one in a hundred cars out on the road with crank windows these days. I tried to mime "open your window" to my college age son the other day rotating my hand and he looked at me as if I were from a different planet.

 

[Foxfire]

You've got to get out more, Rip Van Winkle! There can't be more than one in a hundred cars out on the road with crank windows these days. I tried to mime "open your window" to my college age son the other day rotating my hand and he looked at me as if I were from a different planet.

LOL, my teen grandson saw a 78 Record/Vinyl in an antique shop and said, "that sure is a huge CD"!.. I just smiled and asked him the obvious question, "how many grooves does a 78 record/vinyl have"?

 

[pappa rob]

I couldn't find the old article about "bad glass" but I did find one article about using glass in road resurfacing. So one other possibility that I have been considering lately if maybe some road work in NOCO began using a bad mix of paving materials that is causing small chunks to fly up and break people's car windows. Maybe even glass chunks in the road flying up. Glass on glass probably could cause breakage.

I always found it so strange that paving materials will use glass itself in the paving material. If you ever have seen shiny particles shining back at you from the road in the sun, then this is probably a road that uses recycled glass in the road surface as its getting quite common.

If the paving companies began using too high a percentage of glass or some other material in their "mix" then maybe small little chunks are being flung up from the road into vehicles. The DOT would never want to admit their own roads would cause the shatterings and there could be a big coverup along those lines. Link below shows glass being used in some mixes.

The problem again with these theories is someone would have to investigate and prove it though. We are so dependent on investigators doing a thorough job and getting to the bottom of it. Which is what they need to do.
We don't mind whatever the real answer is. But we cannot keep accepting road debris without some sort of proof.

http://www.pca.state.mn.us/index.ph...ment-innovations/glass-as-road-aggregate.html

Colorado is pretty big on using mining tailings or cinders in their asphalt mix. I've never saw shiny stuff like glass used there. That would be more expensive than most of the materials used, except where they've used tailings from gold mines. Now they've found new ways to remove more gold from the tailings, hence the million dollar highway by Durango, Silverton, and Ouray.
http://co-asphalt.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Design_guide_for_Roadways-.pdf
http://www.bestroadtripplanner.com/2/83/Road-Trip-Routes/The-Million-Dollar-Highway-Loop.html

 

[Hatfield]

You've got to get out more, Rip Van Winkle! There can't be more than one in a hundred cars out on the road with crank windows these days. I tried to mime "open your window" to my college age son the other day rotating my hand and he looked at me as if I were from a different planet.

LOL

I actually didn't realize that so that is good to know. I haven't had to buy a new vehicle since 2002 and all my previous vehicles had "no frills" and were manual roll up windows.

For safety reasons, I actually liked the manual roll up windows. I have an irrational fear of going off the road into a lake or river and not being able to use the power windows to roll down the window to get out. LOL

Foxfire is right though that we can eliminate factory default of the window mechanism or bad glass because the incidents are just occurring on certain roads.

 

[Hatfield]

Colorado is pretty big on using mining tailings or cinders in their asphalt mix. I've never saw shiny stuff like glass used there. That would be more expensive than most of the materials used, except where they've used tailings from gold mines. Now they've found new ways to remove more gold from the tailings, hence the million dollar highway by Durango, Silverton, and Ouray.
http://co-asphalt.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Design_guide_for_Roadways-.pdf
http://www.bestroadtripplanner.com/2/83/Road-Trip-Routes/The-Million-Dollar-Highway-Loop.html

The road repair material is still a possibility I suppose but investigators should be able to determine if any particles of the road were stuck in the glass or inside the car. It would take some good forensic analysis of the window holes and inside the car to see if any parts of the road ended up in the vehicle or near the hole in the glass.

I hope LE is doing that type of analysis because that is what is needed to help solve this. If they found any type of frangible bullet fragment then they may even be able to determine if a lot of them were the same type of ammunition.

I love panning for gold whenever I get to visit Colorado or California again some day. If I ever get to go to Colorado then instead of bringing my plastic gold pan, I will have to bring a concrete saw and head to one of those roads where they used the "tailings". LOL

 

[Forager]

LOL, my teen grandson saw a 78 Record/Vinyl in an antique shop and said, "that sure is a huge CD"!.. I just smiled and asked him the obvious question, "how many grooves does a 78 record/vinyl have"?

You're a bad person for making me try to look up that answer on line. Took me a while to get it.

 

[Foxfire]

Quote Originally Posted by Foxfire View Post
LOL, my teen grandson saw a 78 Record/Vinyl in an antique shop and said, "that sure is a huge CD"!.. I just smiled and asked him the obvious question, "how many grooves does a 78 record/vinyl have"?

You're a bad person for making me try to look up that answer on line. Took me a while to get it.

Well, Forager, you're just as bad for not revealing that all records/vinyls; 33 & 1/3, 45s, and 78s, have only One continuous groove.. :thinking:

 

[Foxfire]

Compare the AZ Task Force's Transparency and Media Management Strategy to that of the NOCO Shooter Task Force:
<BBM for Focus>

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...r-to-public-includes-shattered-windows-update

Northern Colorado shootings task force sends letter to public, includes shattered windows update

Deb Stanley
6:19 AM, Jun 19, 2015
<snipped>

"During a normal investigation, we might very likely outline the numbers and types of resources being used, however with the unique nature of this investigation we have concluded that revealing those kinds of specific details could be counterproductive to expeditiously solving these cases," the letter says.

The letter does say the four chiefs are getting daily briefings on the investigation and that at any given time, "there may be investigators active in the field, staff monitoring tip lines, analysts reviewing data that has been compiled, technicians preparing reports, lab personnel analyzing evidence, prosecutors reviewing warrant applications, commanders adjusting strategies, officers on the street looking for suspicious activity, or any number of other experts providing their specialized expertise."

As for the sharp increase in reports of shattered windows, the letter reiterates that so far, there is no connection to the shootings.

"To date, we have found no solid evidence that any of these incidents are related to our shootings," the letter says. "However, to be sure, we have assigned a work group at the task force to review any and all of these types of incidents that are being reported."

The letter goes on to say, "Not only have we not found physical evidence tying them together, but the circumstances are showing no distinguishable patterns. Again, we are not in a position to give too many details, but so far it seems most likely that these are being caused by road debris."

Read the entire letter here. --> http://extras.mnginteractive.com/li...etter from Task Force Chiefs and Sheriffs.pdf

 

[SugarQueen]

HEY COLORADO TASK FORCE, watch AZ get it done! Ya' might learn a few things!

 

[Foxfire]

HEY COLORADO TASK FORCE, watch AZ get it done! Ya' might learn a few things!

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/arizona-news/20245254-story

DPS reaches out to community, seeks shooting tips

DPS will work with the Phoenix Police Department to hand out flyers in neighborhoods near I-10. Each flyer contains details on the shooting and phone numbers to the DPS hotline setup for the shootings.

Photo DPS reaches out to community, seeks shooting tips
Colonel Frank Milstead, the head of DPS announced the reward for information increased to $50,000. Troopers have beefed up patrols on the freeways, and they are investigating over 550 of the 800+ tips the agency has received.

There have been no new incidents since last Thursday, DPS does not know why, but spokesman Bart Graves says they believe the suspect is still out there.

"We're continuing full bore with our investigation, 24 hours a day these people who are working the investigation. A lot of them are working without sleep are following up every lead they're assigned, and this investigation by no means is over," said Bart Graves.

 

[Foxfire]

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/arizona-news/19908937-story

UPDATED:SEP 14 2015 05:57PM MST

PHOENIX (KSAZ) - Pamela Wooten says she had just exited them I-10 near Riggs Road. It was early Saturday when something came blasting through the back window of her pickup truck.

"And all of a sudden I heard boom while sitting in my vehicle, and saw there was a section of my back window taken out by about that much," said Pamela Wooten.
Pamela thought it was debris that hit and broke through her Nissan truck's back window, but it alarmed her enough to call 9-1-1.

<Photo Possible freeway shooter victim getting the runaround from DPS>

A Gila River Police Officer responded and agreed that it was likely road debris, but the next day on the passenger side floorboard, her husband spotted a one-inch black metal ball.

It's not just sitting there; it appears to be burned into the plastic next to the floorboard. It's embedded so deeply; she cannot get it out.

So she called DPS to report the incident, that's when she became frustrated.

"I got the runaround, I felt like I was a victim, and it was not my responsibility to do the research and get the information out to them to prove I was a victim," said Wooten.

She hopes DPS will examine her truck and hopes it can lead to the shooter or a copycat.

 

[Forager]

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/arizona-news/19908937-story

UPDATED:SEP 14 2015 05:57PM MST

PHOENIX (KSAZ) - Pamela Wooten says she had just exited them I-10 near Riggs Road. It was early Saturday when something came blasting through the back window of her pickup truck.

"And all of a sudden I heard boom while sitting in my vehicle, and saw there was a section of my back window taken out by about that much," said Pamela Wooten.
Pamela thought it was debris that hit and broke through her Nissan truck's back window, but it alarmed her enough to call 9-1-1.

<Photo Possible freeway shooter victim getting the runaround from DPS>

A Gila River Police Officer responded and agreed that it was likely road debris, but the next day on the passenger side floorboard, her husband spotted a one-inch black metal ball.

It's not just sitting there; it appears to be burned into the plastic next to the floorboard. It's embedded so deeply; she cannot get it out.

So she called DPS to report the incident, that's when she became frustrated.

"I got the runaround, I felt like I was a victim, and it was not my responsibility to do the research and get the information out to them to prove I was a victim," said Wooten.

She hopes DPS will examine her truck and hopes it can lead to the shooter or a copycat.

This is troubling.

The Weld and Larimer Counties' Sheriffs Offices, along with the NOCO Task Force have repeatedly strained credibility in dismissing window shattering incidents as caused by road debris. It seemed the common sense explanation early on during the series of window shatterings along I-25. If bullets were involved, you would have expected to see some evidence of that beyond the shattered window: a bullet or an "exit wound" where the bullet left the car. Absent that, what else could it have been but road debris? But after a while, the large number of side and back window shatterings, and their concentration along I-25 made it clear that road debris could not have been responsible for many of the incidents that were reported.

Could Gila River PD, and Phoenix DPS be following suit? There was a report on Saturday by Fox 10 of four window shatterings along I-10 on Saturday, three of them involving side windows. (See my post #451 below). This latest report by Linda Williams on 9/14/15 is of a different Saturday incident, also on I-10, but well east of the other, and involves a back window. Any of the four side and rear window shatterings could be due to road debris, or to other "natural" causes - it does happen - but all four? Not likely.

 

[Forager]

Auto glass experts debate cause of spate of shattered windows in vehicles on northern Colorado roadways (video)
Emma Pettit, The Greeley Tribune, July 1, '15

"... not everyone agrees with the task force’s reasoning. A few auto industry experts were shocked when they initially heard about the shattered windows — the more information they learned, the more it didn’t make sense to them.

For Caleb Perriton, it was odd side windows, instead of windshields, were getting damaged. He’s the director of education at WyoTech in Laramie, Wyo., and has worked in the automotive industry for more than 25 years. He said windshields take the regular abuse of rocks and gravel kicked up by vehicles — not the sides of cars.

Zac Kreider, collision instructor in the automotive department at Aims Community College in Greeley, agreed and said to do damage, debris needs to strike a window at a 90-degree angle. That’s difficult to do when traffic moves in the same direction, such as on I-25, where many of these shattered windows occurred, Kreider said.

Kreider and Perriton also were puzzled because they said side window and back window glass, called tempered glass, is extremely difficult to break... . To break that glass takes considerable force, something just a pebble couldn’t do, Perriton said."

The story does go on to quote some glass repair shop owners who agreed with the Task Force that the shatterings could have been caused by road debris, but none offer an explanation as to why the great majority of them were side and back windows as opposed to windshields, or why they would be concentrated on I-25 and rare on northern Colorado's other highways.

 

[Foxfire]

Auto glass experts debate cause of spate of shattered windows in vehicles on northern Colorado roadways (video)
Emma Pettit, The Greeley Tribune, July 1, '15

"... not everyone agrees with the task force’s reasoning. A few auto industry experts were shocked when they initially heard about the shattered windows — the more information they learned, the more it didn’t make sense to them.

For Caleb Perriton, it was odd side windows, instead of windshields, were getting damaged. He’s the director of education at WyoTech in Laramie, Wyo., and has worked in the automotive industry for more than 25 years. He said windshields take the regular abuse of rocks and gravel kicked up by vehicles — not the sides of cars.

Zac Kreider, collision instructor in the automotive department at Aims Community College in Greeley, agreed and said to do damage, debris needs to strike a window at a 90-degree angle. That’s difficult to do when traffic moves in the same direction, such as on I-25, where many of these shattered windows occurred, Kreider said.

Kreider and Perriton also were puzzled because they said side window and back window glass, called tempered glass, is extremely difficult to break... . To break that glass takes considerable force, something just a pebble couldn’t do, Perriton said."

The story does go on to quote some glass repair shop owners who agreed with the Task Force that the shatterings could have been caused by road debris, but none offer an explanation as to why the great majority of them were side and back windows as opposed to windshields, or why they would be concentrated on I-25 and rare on northern Colorado's other highways.

Forager, this is why your NOCO Shooter/I-25 auto window shatterings interactive map is so important, imo. Combined with the current rash of known highway/interstate shootings in three US States; CO, AZ, and MI, and the 2014 KC, MO sniper's arrest. The CO death/s and gunshot injury of another victim. Your map connects the dots for all of us to see, that it is doubtful the shatterings are a result of side winding road debris, jmo..

Forager's NOCO I-25 Shooter/car window shattering Incident Map
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z_XRj_yu3Dto.kzPJOvnNDQio

 

[SugarQueen]

The metal ball being " melted" into the plastic is odd. My first thought was slingshots use one inch metal balls, but how would it be hot enough to melt plastic? Yet you could still fire it? Someone walking around with a musket?? Lol
Any idea what it could be foxfire?? Anyone??

 

[Foxfire]

The metal ball being " melted" into the plastic is odd. My first thought was slingshots use one inch metal balls, but how would it be hot enough to melt plastic? Yet you could still fire it? Someone walking around with a musket?? Lol
Any idea what it could be foxfire?? Anyone??

Imo, this would indicate that the bullet/projectile was likely fired from a rifle or shotgun. I did a little research on several gun and ballistics forums/blogs and came up with an approximate temperature of a bullet fired 100' from a long barreled gun: over 500 degrees F.. jmo

Guess, it would depend on the range, the muzzle velocity, the barrel length, and many other variables in Pamela Wooten's rear window shattering of her pickup truck<AZ>.. I think the 1st law of thermodynamics indicates that the kinetic energy of the bullet's velocity turns into heat upon impact.. So the bullet/projectile would be hotter at impact than while flying through the air. There is also heat caused by the powder ignition and friction by the bullet as it passes through the gun barrel.

SugarQueen, the 1" size of the black metal ball/projectile is also interesting. How would this have been missed if a proper investigation had been conducted? Imo, this is a perfect example of why so many of the NOCO I-25 car window shatterings were deemed to be caused by side winding road debris..