CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #17

[KALI]

This would MAKE me suicidal if I was not already. At least give him reading material.

Sorry, but I had to skip over 2 threads.... don't know if this has been posted - but just in case it has not.

Report: Chris Watts under suicide watch at Colorado jail :: WRAL.com

 

[x_files]

In Colorado, until a divorce is filed, both parents have the independent right to travel with the children within the United States, and that includes making the decision to move to another state.

Once a divorce case is filed and served on the other party, then there is an automatic injunction against both parents that prohibits anyone from taking the children out of the state unless they have written permission from the other party or a court order.

As we discussed in earlier threads, unlike some other states, Colorado won't put a geographical restriction on the child's residence. During the divorce case, the parties may express an intent to move out of state with the child, and then the Court has to decide which parent should have the primary residence, considering the child's best interest. In other words, the Court wouldn't prohibit SW from moving to NC; however, the Court may rule that the children remain with the Father.

In this case, I feel pretty confident (but it's never 100%) that SW would be able to take the kids to NC if she wanted to move there. Then CW would have to option to stay in Colorado and see the kids on holidays and in the summer, or move to NC to be closer and get more parenting time with the children.

There is a separate procedure called "relocation" that applies when both parents live in Colorado when the divorce is finalized, and then one parent later decides they want to move out of state. And that's beyond the facts of this case.

Maybe he had hoped she'd stay in NC, and when she returned he got upset.

 

[PhoneJockey]

I found this:

First, divorce is a civil law decree from the state, whereas an annulment is a canon law decree from the Church. In other words:

• The state issues a marriage license; and the state issues a divorce decree.
  
  
• The Church celebrates the Sacrament of Matrimony; and only the Church can issue a Decree of Nullity (otherwise known as an annulment). The Church does not believe in divorce.
  

The Catholic Church, Divorce, and Annulment - dummies

 

[ray9898]

Wow I’m kind of surprised that this is being discussed as a fact without concrete confirmation. It is being discussed as if it’s a fact that C.W. is bisexual or gay.

This entire topic is 50% rumors ranging from his sexual orientation, psychological diagnoses to imaginary sequence of events. It just clouds the topic up.

 

[Mo Thuairim]

She has already had one divorce. I don't think it is AS frowned upon in the Catholic church as it has been previously. I believe they still have you do a type of religious "anulment" if you want to stay active/a member of the church, but it's doable.

I'm curious about this. I've read a few times about annulments being granted to divorced Catholics in the US. Is this true? Where I live, once you're divorced you can't be a practising Catholic. You can probably show up to mass if you like but you're not allowed to receive the sacraments, communion, etc. Annulments are certainly not granted to divorcees so they can remarry within the church. They are extremely rare and used only if someone was later found to have been unable to consent to the marriage/it wasn't consummated (and then the annulment would normally only be granted very soon after the erroneous wedding, not years later if the relationship had broken down in a normal fashion). Anyway it's off topic, but just have been wondering about this annulment idea for US Catholics and whether a religious remarriage was possible for SW. I had assumed she was a 'cultural Catholic' only...

 

[x_files]

NC men especially like to kill their pregnant wives.
Without Florida, there wouldn't have been Court TV.

I wonder why?!!!

 

[x_files]

What about James Whitman of UT Texas tower fame? Didn't he have a tumor?

Charles Whitman? The UT Tower Shooter?
I think experts cannot agree on a tumor but found lesions.
Experts still disagree on role of Tower shooter's brain tumor - The Daily Texan

 

[Thepoet]

Charles Whitman? The UT Tower Shooter?
I think experts cannot agree on a tumor but found lesions.
Experts still disagree on role of Tower shooter's brain tumor - The Daily Texan

I've read it both ways and I know there is some dispute. I believe Whitman had seen a doctor, but received no help.

 

[Layla123]

I understand what you’re saying, but this is actually very common in relationships where there’s been infidelity, believe it or not. It’s called “reclaiming” your spouse, and it’s an effort to re-forge that bond, stake your claim, show him & others you’re unbreakable.

We don’t know if SW knew about the affair at the time of conception, we don’t know when she found out. It’s possible that C.W. didn’t start up with the co-worker AP until after SW left for NC. SW doesn’t strike me as the type of woman who is totally dependent on her husband. She seems pretty self reliant to me. She told her friends she suspected something was up with C.W., she made no attempt to hide it or deny it. She was dealing with it. If you look at her life, she has a long pattern of cutting her losses and moving forward with what remains. I’m thinking about how she handled her illness, and how much she achieved on her own, working hard to buy her own house after her 1st divorce. I think we need to look to C.W. to find the answers to the whys for all this. Unfortunately, we don’t know much about him. But we do know he had no assets when they married, and that tells me he wasn’t much of a go getter. We know he took a huge pay cut when took the Anadarko job, and rather than look for a better paying job, he joined the Thrive bandwagon, but obviously didn’t put in the effort because we know he was “dating” pretty much anyone who would have him, and spending a lot of time working out, getting his body buffed up. CW seems like he contributed much less to the marriage than she did. The answers to the problems in that marriage lie within him.

 

[Thepoet]

I wonder how much time CW has spent with his attorneys and how much they've told him? Don't attorneys have to tell their clients everything that's going on with case? If evidence shows he murdered the girls and there's a strong case against him, would they so advise him? That might make him suicidal!

 

[MKZoo]

I'm curious about this. I've read a few times about annulments being granted to divorced Catholics in the US. Is this true? Where I live, once you're divorced you can't be a practising Catholic. You can probably show up to mass if you like but you're not allowed to receive the sacraments, communion, etc. Annulments are certainly not granted to divorcees so they can remarry within the church. They are extremely rare and used only if someone was later found to have been unable to consent to the marriage/it wasn't consummated (and then the annulment would normally only be granted very soon after the erroneous wedding, not years later if the relationship had broken down in a normal fashion). Anyway it's off topic, but just have been wondering about this annulment idea for US Catholics and whether a religious remarriage was possible for SW. I had assumed she was a 'cultural Catholic' only...

I know a number of people who have done it. The annulment process is very involved and difficult and it’s why a lot of people don’t do it. It is basically an investigation to determine if the marriage was truly sacramental or not. The Church appoints a person who will defend the marriage (even though the couple has already legally ended it) on the basis that it was. Typically the annulment is only granted if the Church finds that something was fundamentally missing at the time of the marriage to make it not a true sacrament.

A divorced person may continue to receive communion etc so long as they don’t remarry. It’s the remarriage that puts them outside the Church because without an annulment, they are considered still married to the first spouse. I think this is the general rule for Catholics everywhere not specific to the US. One might have an easier time depending on the local Bishop but I don’t think that’s a US thing.

I don’t think we know if either of SW’s were in the Church or if she obtained an annulment.

 

[SweetPeas56]

I'm Catholic, although not an expert in Canon Law. I do know you can go through a process to get an annulment by proving the marriage wasn't valid from the start. If the marriage was civil only (ie not performed by an ordained minister or priest) an annulment is not needed to remarry in the church, because the marriage wasn't "valid" to start with. It can be fairly complicated. I've known Catholics (both the weekly Mass attendees and the rarely ever go folks) who have remarried outside of the church. It's not super uncommon. My experience has been the regular church attending type remain solid in their beliefs but choose not to take communion because of their marital status. The others (and no I'm not judging) retain their Catholic identity but aren't as strict in their practice. They still "believe". I have a good friend who falls in this second category. She's definitely a believer, but doctrine and practices are not her thing. Part of her expression is her "believe" decor. She loves everything that says "believe" and not just at Christmas. To her, it's an outward sign of her belief in God. She has been married and divorced outside the church and has lived with fiances that she was not married to. But she strongly identifies as a Catholic. Again, I'm not judging. She's one of my best friends. I mention this because I saw "believe" decor on the coffee table of one of SW's videos.

Without being in SW's mind, we don't know if she wanted to save the marriage, or what her motivations were if she did want to save it. There are marriages that come back from infidelity. It's not like it would be crazy to try.

It IS crazy to murder your wife and kids tho.

All MOO.

Apologies in advance. My auto correct has been acting up!

 

[MerryB]

I'm curious about this. I've read a few times about annulments being granted to divorced Catholics in the US. Is this true? Where I live, once you're divorced you can't be a practising Catholic. You can probably show up to mass if you like but you're not allowed to receive the sacraments, communion, etc. Annulments are certainly not granted to divorcees so they can remarry within the church. They are extremely rare and used only if someone was later found to have been unable to consent to the marriage/it wasn't consummated (and then the annulment would normally only be granted very soon after the erroneous wedding, not years later if the relationship had broken down in a normal fashion). Anyway it's off topic, but just have been wondering about this annulment idea for US Catholics and whether a religious remarriage was possible for SW. I had assumed she was a 'cultural Catholic' only...

I believe she was, and we don’t know that CW was Catholic. He may not have been. They were married at a hotel, not a church.

 

[Mo Thuairim]

I know a number of people who have done it. The annulment process is very involved and difficult and it’s why a lot of people don’t do it. It is basically an investigation to determine if the marriage was truly sacramental or not. The Church appoints a person who will defend the marriage (even though the couple has already legally ended it) on the basis that it was. Typically the annulment is only granted if the Church finds that something was fundamentally missing at the time of the marriage to make it not a true sacrament.

A divorced person may continue to receive communion etc so long as they don’t remarry. It’s the remarriage that puts them outside the Church because without an annulment, they are considered still married to the first spouse. I think this is the general rule for Catholics everywhere not specific to the US. One might have an easier time depending on the local Bishop but I don’t think that’s a US thing.

I don’t think we know if either of SW’s were in the Church or if she obtained an annulment.

Yes, it's the same here (Ireland) regarding still being allowed to be a practising Catholic after a divorce as long as you don't remarry. What's different is the availability of annulment. That's very interesting. As far as I am aware it is simply not possible here unless there is a compelling reason the marriage should not have taken place — this is extremely difficult to prove and is never really attempted in practice. Individual bishops have no leeway on this. Thanks for the info on how it works there. Good to know!

 

[Seattle1]

It seems so WRONG to me that Shanann & her beloved children were buried with the last name 'WATTS"..It is their legal name but under the horrific circumstances of their deaths I strongly feel that Shannan's maiden last name should've been used instead..Is there a reason why that couldn't happen?

Not sure what you mean to say? Granted, the law requires your legal name on documents issued by coroner, etc. including death certificate. But with all due respect, I don't imagine the headstones have been carved and placed at their graves after 3 days. I trust the family will do what they deem appropriate and in their hearts here. MOO

 

[Jennifer17]

I'm curious about this. I've read a few times about annulments being granted to divorced Catholics in the US. Is this true? Where I live, once you're divorced you can't be a practising Catholic. You can probably show up to mass if you like but you're not allowed to receive the sacraments, communion, etc. Annulments are certainly not granted to divorcees so they can remarry within the church. They are extremely rare and used only if someone was later found to have been unable to consent to the marriage/it wasn't consummated (and then the annulment would normally only be granted very soon after the erroneous wedding, not years later if the relationship had broken down in a normal fashion). Anyway it's off topic, but just have been wondering about this annulment idea for US Catholics and whether a religious remarriage waIs possible for SW. I had assumed she was a 'cultural Catholic' only...

I know of a man who had been married for eighteen years and had two teenage children who had his marriage annulled so that he could marry a woman who was six years older than his eldest daughter. His wife, my friend always wondered if that made her children illegitimate in the eyes of the church.

 

[Dum-Dum Sucker]

Yes and the National Enquirer paid for it. Legit news organizations don't pay for their stories.

I believe that some news organizations, although not paying for their stories, do pay for photos and videos? IIRC the Anthonys, for example, were compensated by People Mag and by a network news magazine program (20/20? can't remember) for providing private photos and videos.

By paying for private photos/videos, news organizations can get around the stigma of paying for their stories (We're not like the National Enquirer!) They can righteously proclaim, We do not pay for our stories! Um, well, technically, this is true. But they still fork over the ca$h. I don't know if this is true for all, just for some of the cases I have followed (SP, CA, JA).

JMO

 

[MKZoo]

Yes, it's the same here (Ireland) regarding still being allowed to be a practising Catholic after a divorce as long as you don't remarry. What's different is the availability of annulment. That's very interesting. As far as I am aware it is simply not possible here unless there is a compelling reason the marriage should not have taken place — this is extremely difficult to prove and is never really attempted in practice. Individual bishops have no leeway on this. Thanks for the info on how it works there. Good to know!

I should have added the other deterrent to doing it, at least in the U.S., is that it’s expensive. Not sure about Ireland, but here you’re more likely to have success if you hire an attorney who specializes in Canon Law.

 

[MerryB]

Yes, given the girls and her pregnancy and the fact that she clearly loved him and was on her second marriage, I think she would have been very motivated to work on the relationship, even if she found out about some cheating. We don't yet know the full scope of his extramarital shenanigans but it seems to have been extensive. I'm not sure she could forgive him cheating on her with multiple partners but it is unlikely that she knew that.

Welcome @MoThuairim !

 

[Mo Thuairim]

I know of a man who had been married for eighteen years and had two teenage children who had his marriage annulled so that he could marry a woman who was six years older than his eldest daughter. His wife, my friend always wondered if that made her children illegitimate in the eyes of the church.

Wow. That must have been incredibly stressful for your friend. I don't think the church can retroactively deem/view children as 'illegitimate' just because they have decided to annul what was probably a perfectly legitimate marriage, if ultimately an unsuccessful one. The concept of illegitimacy has little meaning anymore, thankfully, in broader society or even within the church.