Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #20

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  • #421
I understand everyone will interpret the videos in different ways, which is why I posted them. I wanted everyone's take on them. Not to victim shame, just to show the dynamics between SW and CW. What I did pick up on was quite a few posters felt that up until the videos were shown they couldn't comment with their true observations. Which IMO is very sad. Please can we have different opinions without everyone jumping on posters who have a different perspective. It's hard to have an opposing opinion when every time you post, you are questioned by not just one person but many. It's disrespectful and sad to witness.


I agree. We all have our opinions and thoughts if you don’t like the post, it’s annoying, you don’t agree, etc., SCROLL and ROLL. Just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean it’s wrong or victim shaming. JMO
 
  • #422
(BBM)
I don't do SM, so I don't speak from direct experience here, but performing to the extent that SW and CW did for the camera must have been absolutely exhausting. Or at least it would be for me. IMO.
From all I've read and seen I have to believe it was invigorating for SW. She was doing what she loved. How many people love their jobs? It was probably also great for the kids who were part of what their parents were doing and they felt included. CW? It obviously did become unpleasant for him and maybe exhausting. But, we all get tired of doing things, we all get annoyed by what others are doing, and we all get forced into doing things we don't want to do. It's called; life. And we don't kill someone because of it. I'm going to give an opinion; CW is a vicious killer! He is also a heartless monster. SW and the girls DID NOT make him that way. Most likely if the MLM hadn't been the trigger, something else would have been, because deep inside CW is what he is; a monster and others don't matter!
 
  • #423
Looking at those videos and commenting is not victim blaming. Rather it shows their dynamics.

I cringe when she makes derogatory comments about him to the who,e world, such as the negative “genius” comment.

If my husband did that to me over and over again, I would be very concerned. Not respectful or loving,

Squirting the children over and over was nor fun. To me it was almost sadistic. Where was the love and fun? And then forcing it on Cece?

The Christmas forcing of have fun ! I cannot even imagine such a scene,

I don’t think people realize about forcing things on children to satisfy their needs. Adult centered, not child centered
I swore not to watch any of them, but I did click on the Christmas one, that was excruciating, no one seemed to want anything to do with the occasion except SW. I was wondering if that camera or go pro or whatever it was has a constant light on it, facing the people being filmed. Also if she weren't always holding it it could seem less intrusive.

With Santa, probably best to get a friend to be Santa, so Daddy is not missing from the event. JMHO
 
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  • #424
From all I've read and seen I have to believe it was invigorating for SW. She was doing what she loved. How many people love their jobs? It was probably also great for the kids who were part of what their parents were doing and they felt included. CW? It obviously did become unpleasant for him and maybe exhausting. But, we all get tired of doing things, we all get annoyed by what others are doing, and we all get forced into doing things we don't want to do. It's called; life. And we don't kill someone because of it. I'm going to give an opinion; CW is a vicious killer! He is also a heartless monster. SW and the girls DID NOT make him that way. Most likely if the MLM hadn't been the trigger, something else would have been, because deep inside CW is what he is; a monster and others don't matter!
I completely agree with you about CW he is a monster.
I have friends who thrive and I did my research so I literally have unfollowed them on FB because I was so sick of seeing thrive stuff so I can see where it could drive me crazy to live that life. However leaving makes so much more sense. JMO
 
  • #425
It's interesting because a lot of times SW is gently (or not so gently) panned for trying to present a "perfect" family life and household through her photos and posts. Yet when she posts videos of her family being perfectly human and her doing the things that MANY of us do (playing with the kids, ribbing husband, bossing people around, laughing, etc) then that's not quite right as well. It is difficult being a parent these days when, thanks to social media, it feels like everyone is watching.

The thing is she put this out there for everyone to watch and judge. I don’t post anything on Facebook, because I don’t want any comments or unsolicited advice. This case is particularly interesting because we really do get a peak into their lives. I like Shannann, I feel she is very genuine and even while being dominant, you can tell there’s real feelings/emotions there. I’m analyzing these videos looking at what might be behind CW’s expressions. Obviously he was putting on an act. No loving happy dad murders his kids and throws them in a vat of oil. It’s interesting to see him and know what he did (or allegedly did). I don’t think SW did anything to provoke or cause this horrible crime, but by analyzing their dynamics we can at least try to understand if the relationship was showing cracks and grasp at a reason as to “why” ... as unimaginable as it may seem to us.
 
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  • #426
I meant that it seemed OP was trying to blame MJ on their behavior, which is silly IMO.
Actually I wasn’t trying to blame MJ on their behavior, at all. I was just curious if anyone knew if they partook or not. If she had tried/used it for her health issues, because it’s useful in the ones she had. And if it was maybe a reason as to why they moved to CO. I said it was random, but I wanted to know; so I asked. They were talking about the house in NC & what caused them to possibly move. Legal MJ is totally a reason people move. It wasn’t reaching.
 
  • #427
After reading how swiftly and viciously the tide turned on the thread after the videos were posted, I was honestly dreading watching them. I got the implication from the posts that SW would appear like a controlling monster who was cruel to her children and husband and gleefully humiliated them, etc. etc.

Wow.

In the checkers video I saw normal ribbing. My husband and I joke around a lot and are ultra-competitive in silly games like this. CW was laughing and joking around about it. He could have left. There's actually a second checkers video posted on FB too. He didn't have to agree to go live and play a 2nd game, either, if he was upset like people claim, with seething anger and whatever all.

The squirting water video? Bella was laughing the whole time and kept coming back to open her mouth, lift her shirt, etc. She wasn't crying, wasn't saying stop it, wasn't trying to get in frantically. She was spraying the window too. Even the "daddy save me" was with giggles. I guess I must be cruel and evil too because I saw normal horseplay.

The pie face... again, my husband would want to be the one in the pie in the face spot and in front of the camera when I wouldn't. Just to be silly. Do we know "poor" CW didn't want to be there? Did SW force him into a place of humiliation and degradation by playing a game and letting his toddlers smash whip cream in his face? For heaven's sake. The only thing that I disagreed with was that it went on too long at the end when Bella didn't want to get messy then was crying & didn't want to say goodbye. They're kids. She was probably over it as soon as she ran away to play with something else.

We know that social media and marketing a lifestyle is a big part of any MLM. We know SW was a Thriver who took a lot of videos and was always "on".

I cannot for the life of me see what everyone seems to be seeing about how terrible she was and how bad she was to her children and how poor Chris was dominated to where he eventually had to take out his big bad controlling wife while watching her murder his children. What?!

He's a grown man who had 2 kids, 1 on the way and was perfectly capable of saying no. This has shades of the traditional BS in-laws mentality of "the evil wife and my poor baby boy".

I'm gonna need a cleansing and a step back after this one because some of the posts feel very close to victim blaming and shaming. I mean... all the way up to, she deliberately targeted the child who looked the most like CW with a squirt gun because of some secret resentment? Seriously, what?!?!?!

It's pretty incredible.

If people saw me in my home I guess they'd think I'm a serial killer based on how people are reacting to some cherry-picked videos on here.

We have to remember a few things:

1. She is holding the camera and trying to film a situation or narrative or whatever. It's her "show" so she's directing. I do the very same thing in videos. "Move there. Come here. Smile!"
2. We literally have the benefit of viewing this family from only one lens. Why? Because the murderer deleted his Facebook a week before the slaughter. He would be likely to post his own videos from his own phone. But that's gone. So we don't know what it looks like when he's on the other end of the camera or when he's running the show. We are getting only one picture. Dissecting this poor dead woman and her family from only one view and cherry-picked videos people are posting in an effort to show she's a monster of some sort.
3. Some people don't parent or treat children with kid gloves. They know kids that age cry a lot. They cry when they want something or don't want something or think something is scary or get mad. So some people don't make a big deal about kids getting upset for a second and try to teach them to be a bit tougher. It's not my style but it's not abuse.
Reminds me of a dear friend of mine. Actually is similar to Shanann in personality. She and her mom. Lots of joking and ribbing. She sort of downplays it when her kids cry or act upset over little things. But the minute they're truly hurt or upset, she's the one they run to. Her husband is a very quiet, stoic person. She is half Italian and outgoing and seems to run the house. But it's not true. He actually does.

It also reminds me of me versus my ex. Scenario? I hear yelling and whining as my ex is roughhousing. "Put him down! He doesn't like it! He's upset!"
"Oh he loves it."
"Damn it put him down!" (It really annoys me).
"If he's upset why isn't he trying to get away? And why does he keep coming back when I put him down?"
(Totally true).

I don't like squirting anyone in the face with anything. I worry about their eyes. And a child can get the idea that a bottle that sprays is a toy to use on another kid's face, not understanding that that's windex or whatever.

That beings said, anyone analzying any good parent for long enough can find things to criticize. And damn it, they do.

It's amazing how harsh people can be about other people's parenting. The Sanctimommies out there just freaking out over every last thing people do with their kids that's shown on tv or online. Just losing their minds over "My God!! You're holding the baby wrong, using the baby sling wrong, using the car seat wrong, you should have done this or that or the other!"

It's endlessly eyerolling to me. We have become a generation of sanctimonious judges of others due in part to the ability to monitor people's parenting on the internet and partly because we are the hysterical "safety" generation and exposing children to the tiniest bit of danger of discomfort is now a cardinal sin.

And it's creating a bunch of kids who don't know the limits of their own bodies or how to problem solve or socialize without their parents' constant supervision and interference and it's creating a bunch of adults who think it's acceptable to pick someone to death over the tiniest flaws they see in photos or videos posted online.

One thing I will say though is that yes, how she interacts in these few, cherry picked videos with her schlub of a husband lurking around in them, may be indicative of a relationship-dynamic that he grew to resent, loathe and eventually to hate her over.

But not because she was a nasty woman, or controlling or mean-spiritited or because he was cowed or abused or a victim or anything else that I've been seeing on here.

Nope. It's because IMO the intensely strong reaction on here and elsewhere, to a woman who is pretty normal, just not a submissive, shrinking violet (reminds me a bit of Leah Remini's character in her tv show. I guess she's a psychopath), tells me that a woman who doesn't adhere to certain societal expectations about gender - that a woman doesn't give directions or instructions to a man, that a woman can't make jokes at a man's expense about winninng or she's a monstrous, emasculating shrew, that a woman can't be in control, decisive and a leader in her relationship with her man or other men, that a normal woman is always exceedingly maternal, soft spoken, submissive, sweet, supportive and yielding- women who don't adhere to those "norms" are soundly punished by society.

I feel Shanann is being punished here for daring to step outside those norms. She's a shrew. She pushed him to murder. She may even have murdered the kids herself.

But what's important is that those norms clearly exist. And if educated, informed people here react to them harshly, what about a man who may not be as educated? What about a man from a traditional family or area? One who is more quiet and introverted? Might he quietly seethe at his woman daring to make decisions or give commands or make an impression or get attention?

I never forget someone on here posted a video SW took of her thrive people dancing. She was giggling and laughing and in the background her husband stood quietly, standing sideways, but his head turned, just silently watching his exuberant wife.

The poster explained that it reminded her so much of her ex husband. Who was a secretly abusive creep. He would watch her like that and I guess count the ways her behavior dislpleased him. He was jealous of her and he punished her later for it.

Well maybe CW wasn't secretly abusive. Maybe he never vocally expressed any displeasure toward her at all. But he clearly punished her in the end anyway. He took away almost everything that mattered to her. He took away her babies her precious children, and he took away her life, the very breath from her body.

She dared to step outside of societal gender norms. People deem that emasculating. IMO far from it but it makes a point. If that's how some normal people view her behavior, what about a person with a secret defect of character?

So in the end, after this long rambling post, in a way I agree with many who say this dynamic might explain some things.

It does. For me it explains that women who dare to veer from certain gender norms are still punished by society. They're deemed not to be good mothers. Bad wives. Wives who pushed their hapless men to violence.

The incredibly strong negative reaction to these cherry picked videos by some who seem to be turning the tables here and deeming the victim to be the abuser and the murderer to be the victim, tells me that the reaction to this strong, decisive woman could be much more deadly on the part of a defective monster who quietly seethed at all she dared to be, and all he never was.

Shanann Watts
 
  • #428
I only WISH Dieter could talk..then we would know the truth.
(Your doggies are adorable and look sooo happy!!

187878.jpg
)
 
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  • #429
I don't want to get TOO far into it, but I agree. I suspect that something similar is going to be brought up. If CW doesn't stick with his current defense then I can absolutely see them going in some kind of chemical route and even using her social media stuff to "prove" what a "great" dad he was "before."
I can see the defense doing exactly
I don't want to get TOO far into it, but I agree. I suspect that something similar is going to be brought up. If CW doesn't stick with his current defense then I can absolutely see them going in some kind of chemical route and even using her social media stuff to "prove" what a "great" dad he was "before."

I believe the defense will do what you describe, but I doubt it will make a difference.

1. CW confessed to killing his PREGNANT wife!

2. Killing SW killed the unborn child!

3. Cw immediately acted to hide the crime and continued to lie until he was caught!

4. CW hid the bodies in a way most people find highly offensive and brutal!

7. All of CW's actions have been those of someone guilty of a vicious crime, not someone acting from rage or defending his children.

6. He was not a grieving father when he gave the interviews, nor did he exhibit any real emotion. There has been no show of remorse.

I'm very impressed with LE in this case and I have to believe that they have gathered and are gathering evidence that will destroy CW in court.
 
  • #430
I completely agree with you about CW he is a monster.
I have friends who thrive and I did my research so I literally have unfollowed them on FB because I was so sick of seeing thrive stuff so I can see where it could drive me crazy to live that life. However leaving makes so much more sense. JMO
There are many options; counseling, divorce, etc. The course of action he chose tells us all we need to know about him!
 
  • #431
Actually I wasn’t trying to blame MJ on their behavior, at all. I was just curious if anyone knew if they partook or not. If she had tried/used it for her health issues, because it’s useful in the ones she had. And if it was maybe a reason as to why they moved to CO. I said it was random, but I wanted to know; so I asked. They were talking about the house in NC & what caused them to possibly move. Legal MJ is totally a reason people move. It wasn’t reaching.
It's totally possible legal cannabis for SW's lupus and the girls' immune problems could have been one of the factors in the move but I think it was the prospect of better jobs. SW's friends had gone to CO before them. I don't know the laws in NC, but it seems likely that SW and the girls would qualify for medical marijuana prescriptions.

In a video, SW said that she bought the NC house when she was 25 with the plan to resell it and make a profit. I believe she did it. A quick sale that included the furniture is not uncommon. CW was already in CO.
SW wanted to join him ASAP.
 
  • #432
In the Santa video does SW have a mark on her neck ?
 
  • #433
I agree. We all have our opinions and thoughts if you don’t like the post, it’s annoying, you don’t agree, etc., SCROLL and ROLL. Just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean it’s wrong or victim shaming. JMO

Thank you. I've not felt comfortable expressing my thoughts and observations on this case lately as I don't need to be accused of victim blaming or anti feminism or whatever one wants to spin me looking at the dynamics of the family if I don't see exactly what they see. It's disheartening. Oh well, scroll and roll and wait for more info...
 
  • #434
I don't want to get TOO far into it, but I agree. I suspect that something similar is going to be brought up. If CW doesn't stick with his current defense then I can absolutely see them going in some kind of chemical route and even using her social media stuff to "prove" what a "great" dad he was "before."
IMO the videos are from SW . They are valuable bc they show interaction of not only CW with girls but SW with the girls as well. They also show how she interacts with CW and he with her. We not only have videos but the words of her family saying he was a great dad and father . We have the neighbors and friends saying the same . I don’t understand what actual evidence we have before the murders , that he was not a good dad. There has never been a DV call. SW even calls CW the calm one and herself the fiery one. That’s the shocking part about this case .
 
  • #435
In regards to the videos that are being discussed;
I think most, if not all, of us here are smart enough not to believe commercials, we know they're only selling something! Likewise, while SW's videos no doubt were family entertainment and history, they were also selling something.
You can only draw certain and limited conclusions. SW was no doubt the director, screenwriter, and producer, as well as a member of the cast. Was she the same off screen? We really don't know. We do know that while CW was the great daddy and husband on screen, we also know that off screen he eventually was Freddy Krueger! Why? We don't know, we can only speculate. But without, shall we say corroberating evidence of personality traits and motives, the videos really only offer a fleeting view of a family performing for the camera.

Re BBM
This is a very important point about them.

IMO
Some of the videos served an important purpose of helping to sell her products. I am pretty sure that when she made some of them she had that goal in mind.

I knew a family that were sellers of multi-level marketing products and in a lot of ways I saw similarities in how the family I knew presented themselves and what I was seeing presented on the videos.

As a small example when I heard about the Lexus vehicle which she rightly earned, it reminded me so much of the day we had gone to a sales presentation at their house and they even made sure a brand new shiny and expensive vehicle was in the driveway for the sole purpose of giving off a persona of success. We lived not far from them and we knew the vehicle was new because we had never seen it before. We thought they had just bought it or something. Come to find out that they rented it out just for the sales meeting to have in everyone's face as they pulled up to attend the sales presentation.

Some of the videos to me came across as more of a marketing thing than anything else.
 
  • #436
Anymore news on the motion by the defense regarding prosecutors leaking information? Can't find the document or link presently.
This article is from yesterday: Wording of new motion in Watts case "unusual," former Boulder DA says

While it's standard to point out potential to prejudice a jury, Garnett said the wording of the motion — requiring "the government" to investigate the issue — is unusual.

The prosecution had until Sept. 5 to file a response to the motion, though a response is not yet included on the case's page online.

Prosecutors are required to follow the Colorado Rules of Professional Conduct, which forbids them from saying something outside of court that could create prejudice in a legal proceeding.

Frederick police Detective Dave Baumhover said the department also has a policy against making extrajudicial statements.

The FBI declined to comment on the issue and referred questions to the district attorney and Frederick police. CBI did not return a phone call seeking comment.

However, if anyone from the prosecution is making extrajudicial statements, Garnett said the onus would fall on the district attorney, who is tasked with ensuring law enforcement complies with the rules.

Here is a link to the motion: https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...trict/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/Watts-C-2.pdf
 
  • #437
It's pretty incredible.

If people saw me in my home I guess they'd think I'm a serial killer based on how people are reacting to some cherry-picked videos on here.

We have to remember a few things:

1. She is holding the camera and trying to film a situation or narrative or whatever. It's her "show" so she's directing. I do the very same thing in videos. "Move there. Come here. Smile!"
2. We literally have the benefit of viewing this family from only one lens. Why? Because the murderer deleted his Facebook a week before the slaughter. He would be likely to post his own videos from his own phone. But that's gone. So we don't know what it looks like when he's on the other end of the camera or when he's running the show. We are getting only one picture. Dissecting this poor dead woman and her family from only one view and cherry-picked videos people are posting in an effort to show she's a monster of some sort.
3. Some people don't parent or treat children with kid gloves. They know kids that age cry a lot. They cry when they want something or don't want something or think something is scary or get mad. So some people don't make a big deal about kids getting upset for a second and try to teach them to be a bit tougher. It's not my style but it's not abuse.
Reminds me of a dear friend of mine. Actually is similar to Shanann in personality. She and her mom. Lots of joking and ribbing. She sort of downplays it when her kids cry or act upset over little things. But the minute they're truly hurt or upset, she's the one they run to. Her husband is a very quiet, stoic person. She is half Italian and outgoing and seems to run the house. But it's not true. He actually does.

It also reminds me of me versus my ex. Scenario? I hear yelling and whining as my ex is roughhousing. "Put him down! He doesn't like it! He's upset!"
"Oh he loves it."
"Damn it put him down!" (It really annoys me).
"If he's upset why isn't he trying to get away? And why does he keep coming back when I put him down?"
(Totally true).

I don't like squirting anyone in the face with anything. I worry about their eyes. And a child can get the idea that a bottle that sprays is a toy to use on another kid's face, not understanding that that's windex or whatever.

That beings said, anyone analzying any good parent for long enough can find things to criticize. And damn it, they do.

It's amazing how harsh people can be about other people's parenting. The Sanctimommies out there just freaking out over every last thing people do with their kids that's shown on tv or online. Just losing their minds over "My God!! You're holding the baby wrong, using the baby sling wrong, using the car seat wrong, you should have done this or that or the other!"

It's endlessly eyerolling to me. We have become a generation of sanctimonious judges of others due in part to the ability to monitor people's parenting on the internet and partly because we are the hysterical "safety" generation and exposing children to the tiniest bit of danger of discomfort is now a cardinal sin.

And it's creating a bunch of kids who don't know the limits of their own bodies or how to problem solve or socialize without their parents' constant supervision and interference and it's creating a bunch of adults who think it's acceptable to pick someone to death over the tiniest flaws they see in photos or videos posted online.

One thing I will say though is that yes, how she interacts in these few, cherry picked videos with her schlub of a husband lurking around in them, may be indicative of a relationship-dynamic that he grew to resent, loathe and eventually to hate her over.

But not because she was a nasty woman, or controlling or mean-spiritited or because he was cowed or abused or a victim or anything else that I've been seeing on here.

Nope. It's because IMO the intensely strong reaction on here and elsewhere, to a woman who is pretty normal, just not a submissive, shrinking violet (reminds me a bit of Leah Remini's character in her tv show. I guess she's a psychopath), tells me that a woman who doesn't adhere to certain societal expectations about gender - that a woman doesn't give directions or instructions to a man, that a woman can't make jokes at a man's expense about winninng or she's a monstrous, emasculating shrew, that a woman can't be in control, decisive and a leader in her relationship with her man or other men, that a normal woman is always exceedingly maternal, soft spoken, submissive, sweet, supportive and yielding- women who don't adhere to those "norms" are soundly punished by society.

I feel Shanann is being punished here for daring to step outside those norms. She's a shrew. She pushed him to murder. She may even have murdered the kids herself.

But what's important is that those norms clearly exist. And if educated, informed people here react to them harshly, what about a man who may not be as educated? What about a man from a traditional family or area? One who is more quiet and introverted? Might he quietly seethe at his woman daring to make decisions or give commands or make an impression or get attention?

I never forget someone on here posted a video SW took of her thrive people dancing. She was giggling and laughing and in the background her husband stood quietly, standing sideways, but his head turned, just silently watching his exuberant wife.

The poster explained that it reminded her so much of her ex husband. Who was a secretly abusive creep. He would watch her like that and I guess count the ways her behavior dislpleased him. He was jealous of her and he punished her later for it.

Well maybe CW wasn't secretly abusive. Maybe he never vocally expressed any displeasure toward her at all. But he clearly punished her in the end anyway. He took away almost everything that mattered to her. He took away her babies her precious children, and he took away her life, the very breath from her body.

She dared to step outside of societal gender norms. People deem that emasculating. IMO far from it but it makes a point. If that's how some normal people view her behavior, what about a person with a secret defect of character?

So in the end, after this long rambling post, in a way I agree with many who say this dynamic might explain some things.

It does. For me it explains that women who dare to veer from certain gender norms are still punished by society. They're deemed not to be good mothers. Bad wives. Wives who pushed their hapless men to violence.

The incredibly strong negative reaction to these cherry picked videos by some who seem to be turning the tables here and deeming the victim to be the abuser and the murderer to be the victim, tells me that the reaction to this strong, decisive woman could be much more deadly on the part of a defective monster who quietly seethed at all she dared to be, and all he never was.

Shanann Watts
I agree with a lot of what you say, but I can't think of a video that would change my mind as to the innocence of Shan'nan in this case, no way she killed her kids. If I were the family I would consider shutting down the FB site.
 
  • #438
Just because I am not charmed by the videos does not mean I have a problem with strong women. For Pete's sake.

And I haven't noticed anyone suggesting SW drove CW to kill his family.

We've hit some nerves. I'm scrolling for awhile.

jmo
 
  • #439
Good Morning,

Catching up and wanted to bring forward this post from @gitana1 from the last thread:

“I think the judge decides. Looks like the sentencing court has discretion. If there's more than one victim a consecutive sentence could be more likely:

Concurrent vs. Consecutive Sentencing in Colorado | Denver Criminal Defense Attorneys | Arapahoe County Criminal Defense Law Firm

If the jury convicts him of second degree murder for Shanann, but with a heat of passion finding, he could get a reduced sentence.

Second degree murder = minimum of 16 years in Colorado and up to 48.

Second degree murder is reduced to third degree "extraordinary risk" felony with a range of 4-16 years, if they find he acted with a heat of passion.

"Second Degree Murder" |Colorado Law 18-3-103 C.R.S.

Class 3 Felony Crimes in Colorado

I believe there's no chance in hell a judge would sentence him to 4 years.

I don't see any scenario, even if he is believed, where a jury could find this to be just manslaughter "reckless killing". 2-6 years prison.
Colorado "manslaughter" laws (explained by defense lawyers)

@MCDRAW asked me last thread if I thought he could get acquitted. I'm pretty confident he won't. But I'm scared of the process to get there. Like a hung jury first.

I think, I hope, I pray it will be guilty of five counts of first degree murder.“

———

I find gitana’s post extremely relevant because as I mentioned before, I lean more towards a snapping vs elaborately planned murder. Moo.

I think a poll would be interesting, snapped vs premeditation.
(I’ve alerted a mod on this)
 
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  • #440
It's pretty incredible.

If people saw me in my home I guess they'd think I'm a serial killer based on how people are reacting to some cherry-picked videos on here.

We have to remember a few things:

1. She is holding the camera and trying to film a situation or narrative or whatever. It's her "show" so she's directing. I do the very same thing in videos. "Move there. Come here. Smile!"
2. We literally have the benefit of viewing this family from only one lens. Why? Because the murderer deleted his Facebook a week before the slaughter. He would be likely to post his own videos from his own phone. But that's gone. So we don't know what it looks like when he's on the other end of the camera or when he's running the show. We are getting only one picture. Dissecting this poor dead woman and her family from only one view and cherry-picked videos people are posting in an effort to show she's a monster of some sort.
3. Some people don't parent or treat children with kid gloves. They know kids that age cry a lot. They cry when they want something or don't want something or think something is scary or get mad. So some people don't make a big deal about kids getting upset for a second and try to teach them to be a bit tougher. It's not my style but it's not abuse.
Reminds me of a dear friend of mine. Actually is similar to Shanann in personality. She and her mom. Lots of joking and ribbing. She sort of downplays it when her kids cry or act upset over little things. But the minute they're truly hurt or upset, she's the one they run to. Her husband is a very quiet, stoic person. She is half Italian and outgoing and seems to run the house. But it's not true. He actually does.

It also reminds me of me versus my ex. Scenario? I hear yelling and whining as my ex is roughhousing. "Put him down! He doesn't like it! He's upset!"
"Oh he loves it."
"Damn it put him down!" (It really annoys me).
"If he's upset why isn't he trying to get away? And why does he keep coming back when I put him down?"
(Totally true).

I don't like squirting anyone in the face with anything. I worry about their eyes. And a child can get the idea that a bottle that sprays is a toy to use on another kid's face, not understanding that that's windex or whatever.

That beings said, anyone analzying any good parent for long enough can find things to criticize. And damn it, they do.

It's amazing how harsh people can be about other people's parenting. The Sanctimommies out there just freaking out over every last thing people do with their kids that's shown on tv or online. Just losing their minds over "My God!! You're holding the baby wrong, using the baby sling wrong, using the car seat wrong, you should have done this or that or the other!"

It's endlessly eyerolling to me. We have become a generation of sanctimonious judges of others due in part to the ability to monitor people's parenting on the internet and partly because we are the hysterical "safety" generation and exposing children to the tiniest bit of danger of discomfort is now a cardinal sin.

And it's creating a bunch of kids who don't know the limits of their own bodies or how to problem solve or socialize without their parents' constant supervision and interference and it's creating a bunch of adults who think it's acceptable to pick someone to death over the tiniest flaws they see in photos or videos posted online.

One thing I will say though is that yes, how she interacts in these few, cherry picked videos with her schlub of a husband lurking around in them, may be indicative of a relationship-dynamic that he grew to resent, loathe and eventually to hate her over.

But not because she was a nasty woman, or controlling or mean-spiritited or because he was cowed or abused or a victim or anything else that I've been seeing on here.

Nope. It's because IMO the intensely strong reaction on here and elsewhere, to a woman who is pretty normal, just not a submissive, shrinking violet (reminds me a bit of Leah Remini's character in her tv show. I guess she's a psychopath), tells me that a woman who doesn't adhere to certain societal expectations about gender - that a woman doesn't give directions or instructions to a man, that a woman can't make jokes at a man's expense about winninng or she's a monstrous, emasculating shrew, that a woman can't be in control, decisive and a leader in her relationship with her man or other men, that a normal woman is always exceedingly maternal, soft spoken, submissive, sweet, supportive and yielding- women who don't adhere to those "norms" are soundly punished by society.

I feel Shanann is being punished here for daring to step outside those norms. She's a shrew. She pushed him to murder. She may even have murdered the kids herself.

But what's important is that those norms clearly exist. And if educated, informed people here react to them harshly, what about a man who may not be as educated? What about a man from a traditional family or area? One who is more quiet and introverted? Might he quietly seethe at his woman daring to make decisions or give commands or make an impression or get attention?

I never forget someone on here posted a video SW took of her thrive people dancing. She was giggling and laughing and in the background her husband stood quietly, standing sideways, but his head turned, just silently watching his exuberant wife.

The poster explained that it reminded her so much of her ex husband. Who was a secretly abusive creep. He would watch her like that and I guess count the ways her behavior dislpleased him. He was jealous of her and he punished her later for it.

Well maybe CW wasn't secretly abusive. Maybe he never vocally expressed any displeasure toward her at all. But he clearly punished her in the end anyway. He took away almost everything that mattered to her. He took away her babies her precious children, and he took away her life, the very breath from her body.

She dared to step outside of societal gender norms. People deem that emasculating. IMO far from it but it makes a point. If that's how some normal people view her behavior, what about a person with a secret defect of character?

So in the end, after this long rambling post, in a way I agree with many who say this dynamic might explain some things.

It does. For me it explains that women who dare to veer from certain gender norms are still punished by society. They're deemed not to be good mothers. Bad wives. Wives who pushed their hapless men to violence.

The incredibly strong negative reaction to these cherry picked videos by some who seem to be turning the tables here and deeming the victim to be the abuser and the murderer to be the victim, tells me that the reaction to this strong, decisive woman could be much more deadly on the part of a defective monster who quietly seethed at all she dared to be, and all he never was.

Shanann Watts

BBM
I agree with the majority of what you are saying. However, as far as gender norms and roles go I’m not a one size fits all kind of person. I can see how one would think or misconstrue what’s being said as punishing SW for stepping away from the gender norms, but I’m not doing that. All I’m saying is that I see unhealthy relationships in the video’s. For me my opinions have nothing to do with gender roles. JMO
 
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