Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #20

[Jennifer17]

This article is from yesterday: Wording of new motion in Watts case "unusual," former Boulder DA says

While it's standard to point out potential to prejudice a jury, Garnett said the wording of the motion — requiring "the government" to investigate the issue — is unusual.

The prosecution had until Sept. 5 to file a response to the motion, though a response is not yet included on the case's page online.

Prosecutors are required to follow the Colorado Rules of Professional Conduct, which forbids them from saying something outside of court that could create prejudice in a legal proceeding.

Frederick police Detective Dave Baumhover said the department also has a policy against making extrajudicial statements.

The FBI declined to comment on the issue and referred questions to the district attorney and Frederick police. CBI did not return a phone call seeking comment.

However, if anyone from the prosecution is making extrajudicial statements, Garnett said the onus would fall on the district attorney, who is tasked with ensuring law enforcement complies with the rules.

Here is a link to the motion: https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...trict/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/Watts-C-2.pdf

This article is from yesterday: Wording of new motion in Watts case "unusual," former Boulder DA says

While it's standard to point out potential to prejudice a jury, Garnett said the wording of the motion — requiring "the government" to investigate the issue — is unusual.

The prosecution had until Sept. 5 to file a response to the motion, though a response is not yet included on the case's page online.

Prosecutors are required to follow the Colorado Rules of Professional Conduct, which forbids them from saying something outside of court that could create prejudice in a legal proceeding.

Frederick police Detective Dave Baumhover said the department also has a policy against making extrajudicial statements.

The FBI declined to comment on the issue and referred questions to the district attorney and Frederick police. CBI did not return a phone call seeking comment.

However, if anyone from the prosecution is making extrajudicial statements, Garnett said the onus would fall on the district attorney, who is tasked with ensuring law enforcement complies with the rules.

Here is a link to the motion: https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...trict/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/Watts-C-2.pdf

I have seen that document before but what are the extrajudicial statements? Shouldn't it be up to the defence to prove that the prosecution has done that?

 

[The Saint]

From all I've read and seen I have to believe it was invigorating for SW. She was doing what she loved. How many people love their jobs? It was probably also great for the kids who were part of what their parents were doing and they felt included. CW? It obviously did become unpleasant for him and maybe exhausting. But, we all get tired of doing things, we all get annoyed by what others are doing, and we all get forced into doing things we don't want to do. It's called; life. And we don't kill someone because of it. I'm going to give an opinion; CW is a vicious killer! He is also a heartless monster. SW and the girls DID NOT make him that way. Most likely if the MLM hadn't been the trigger, something else would have been, because deep inside CW is what he is; a monster and others don't matter!

Well that is just it. There are so many, "What ifs" in this case. What if SW and CW had stayed in NC, etc. But ultimately, if he was willing to kill his family in CO, it probably would have done it in NC too. He could have killed at least SW during an exchange of the kids like what just happened w/ the woman killing her ex in the Walmart parking lot when they were exchanging the kids.

 

[The Saint]

BBM
I agree with the majority of what you are saying. However, as far as gender norms and roles go I’m not a one size fits all kind of person. I can see how one would think or misconstrue what’s being said as punishing SW for stepping away from the gender norms, but I’m not doing that. All I’m saying is that I see unhealthy relationships in the video’s. For me my opinions have nothing to do with gender roles. JMO

Does BBM stand for Blackberry message or something else?

 

[Ilovemy3boys]

Here’s another one that murdered his wife and daughters last year. I’m not sure if there’s a thread for them


UPDATED: Kelowna man accused of killing wife, 2 daughters back in court

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Does BBM stand for Blackberry message or something else?

Bolded By Me. Thanks for the giggle!!

ETA: I bolded part of the post I quoted and by typing BBM it alerts that a portion of the quote is bolded

ETA= Edited to Add

 

[bonjoviblonde]

I feel so sorry for SW family because the trial is going to be brutal. It will be Jodi Arias 2.0. Maybe this is how every trial will be from now on, especially with social media. Blaming the victims or at least bringing out every flaw they ever had. I know people will say they aren't blaming the victims and most people are not, especially here, but I guarantee the defense is going to and I've seen the things some people, mostly women, are saying on other boards and social media.

 

[margarita25]

I feel so sorry for SW family because the trial is going to be brutal. It will be Jodi Arias 2.0. Maybe this is how every trial will be from now on, especially with social media. Blaming the victims or at least bringing out every flaw they ever had. I know people will say they aren't blaming the victims and most people are not, especially here, but I guarantee the defense is going to and I've seen the things some people, mostly women, are saying on other boards and social media.

I am dreading this. Wth is wrong with people.

 

[ZsaZsa]

This article is from yesterday: Wording of new motion in Watts case "unusual," former Boulder DA says

While it's standard to point out potential to prejudice a jury, Garnett said the wording of the motion — requiring "the government" to investigate the issue — is unusual.

The prosecution had until Sept. 5 to file a response to the motion, though a response is not yet included on the case's page online.

Prosecutors are required to follow the Colorado Rules of Professional Conduct, which forbids them from saying something outside of court that could create prejudice in a legal proceeding.

Frederick police Detective Dave Baumhover said the department also has a policy against making extrajudicial statements.

The FBI declined to comment on the issue and referred questions to the district attorney and Frederick police. CBI did not return a phone call seeking comment.

However, if anyone from the prosecution is making extrajudicial statements, Garnett said the onus would fall on the district attorney, who is tasked with ensuring law enforcement complies with the rules.

Here is a link to the motion: https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...trict/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/Watts-C-2.pdf

If I had to guess I'd say the defense is just playing their usual games. Trying to create the impression their client will not get a fair trial....

 

[Allabouttrial]

If I had to guess I'd say the defense is just playing their usual games. Trying to create the impression their client will not get a fair trial....

To be fair I think they have a point with this one.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

I feel so sorry for SW family because the trial is going to be brutal. It will be Jodi Arias 2.0. Maybe this is how every trial will be from now on, especially with social media. Blaming the victims or at least bringing out every flaw they ever had. I know people will say they aren't blaming the victims and most people are not, especially here, but I guarantee the defense is going to and I've seen the things some people, mostly women, are saying on other boards and social media.

This reminded me of how badly Nicole Brown Simpson was portrayed at OJ’s trial. Trials are usually very ugly.

 

[Jennifer17]

To be fair I think they have a point with this one.

Why do you think that? What has been released by the prosecution that is damaging to him?

 

[margarita25]

This article is from yesterday: Wording of new motion in Watts case "unusual," former Boulder DA says

While it's standard to point out potential to prejudice a jury, Garnett said the wording of the motion — requiring "the government" to investigate the issue — is unusual.

The prosecution had until Sept. 5 to file a response to the motion, though a response is not yet included on the case's page online.

Prosecutors are required to follow the Colorado Rules of Professional Conduct, which forbids them from saying something outside of court that could create prejudice in a legal proceeding.

Frederick police Detective Dave Baumhover said the department also has a policy against making extrajudicial statements.

The FBI declined to comment on the issue and referred questions to the district attorney and Frederick police. CBI did not return a phone call seeking comment.

However, if anyone from the prosecution is making extrajudicial statements, Garnett said the onus would fall on the district attorney, who is tasked with ensuring law enforcement complies with the rules.

Here is a link to the motion: https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...trict/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/Watts-C-2.pdf

Thanks for the article.

“Stan Garnett, the former district attorney for Boulder County, said it is not unusual for the defense to raise such issues early on, especially in high-profile cases.“

 

[Lucyray]

I swore not to watch any of them, but I did click on the Christmas one, that was excruciating, no one seemed to want anything to do with the occasion except SW. I was wondering if that camera or go pro or whatever it was has a constant light on it, facing the people being filmed. Also if she weren't always holding it it could seem less intrusive.

With Santa, probably best to get a friend to be Santa, so Daddy is not missing from the event. JMHO

I tried to watch that video; it was very uncomfortable. I did not watch to the very end. Two things I took away from what I saw (my own perception only, not necessarily fact, just my own interpretation..) 1. SW was an unhappy woman (through her eyes), and 2. The unspoken exchange between SW and her father got me thinking that there is a whole lot more about the unhappy couple that we (of course) don't know. I think her dad knows a whole lot.

On the other video..the pie in the eye thing.. Very hard to watch. I can only imagine the vibes going on there. Whew! Poor kids.. This is my own opinion, I am not victim bashing. I hope my mind stays open to waiting for the whole truth to come out.

One last thought..what happened to our poster who was hoping to be made a VI, who was very nervous about their identity being learned? If they bolted from here, I wouldn't blame them. A lot of judgmental posts were made. If they are around but not commenting, I just want to say I personally supported your right to voice your opinions, even if I might not agree with them. Just in case you're reading.

 

[Madison418]

It's pretty incredible.

If people saw me in my home I guess they'd think I'm a serial killer based on how people are reacting to some cherry-picked videos on here.

We have to remember a few things:

1. She is holding the camera and trying to film a situation or narrative or whatever. It's her "show" so she's directing. I do the very same thing in videos. "Move there. Come here. Smile!"
2. We literally have the benefit of viewing this family from only one lens. Why? Because the murderer deleted his Facebook a week before the slaughter. He would be likely to post his own videos from his own phone. But that's gone. So we don't know what it looks like when he's on the other end of the camera or when he's running the show. We are getting only one picture. Dissecting this poor dead woman and her family from only one view and cherry-picked videos people are posting in an effort to show she's a monster of some sort.
3. Some people don't parent or treat children with kid gloves. They know kids that age cry a lot. They cry when they want something or don't want something or think something is scary or get mad. So some people don't make a big deal about kids getting upset for a second and try to teach them to be a bit tougher. It's not my style but it's not abuse.
Reminds me of a dear friend of mine. Actually is similar to Shanann in personality. She and her mom. Lots of joking and ribbing. She sort of downplays it when her kids cry or act upset over little things. But the minute they're truly hurt or upset, she's the one they run to. Her husband is a very quiet, stoic person. She is half Italian and outgoing and seems to run the house. But it's not true. He actually does.

It also reminds me of me versus my ex. Scenario? I hear yelling and whining as my ex is roughhousing. "Put him down! He doesn't like it! He's upset!"
"Oh he loves it."
"Damn it put him down!" (It really annoys me).
"If he's upset why isn't he trying to get away? And why does he keep coming back when I put him down?"
(Totally true).

I don't like squirting anyone in the face with anything. I worry about their eyes. And a child can get the idea that a bottle that sprays is a toy to use on another kid's face, not understanding that that's windex or whatever.

That beings said, anyone analzying any good parent for long enough can find things to criticize. And damn it, they do.

It's amazing how harsh people can be about other people's parenting. The Sanctimommies out there just freaking out over every last thing people do with their kids that's shown on tv or online. Just losing their minds over "My God!! You're holding the baby wrong, using the baby sling wrong, using the car seat wrong, you should have done this or that or the other!"

It's endlessly eyerolling to me. We have become a generation of sanctimonious judges of others due in part to the ability to monitor people's parenting on the internet and partly because we are the hysterical "safety" generation and exposing children to the tiniest bit of danger of discomfort is now a cardinal sin.

And it's creating a bunch of kids who don't know the limits of their own bodies or how to problem solve or socialize without their parents' constant supervision and interference and it's creating a bunch of adults who think it's acceptable to pick someone to death over the tiniest flaws they see in photos or videos posted online.

One thing I will say though is that yes, how she interacts in these few, cherry picked videos with her schlub of a husband lurking around in them, may be indicative of a relationship-dynamic that he grew to resent, loathe and eventually to hate her over.

But not because she was a nasty woman, or controlling or mean-spiritited or because he was cowed or abused or a victim or anything else that I've been seeing on here.

Nope. It's because IMO the intensely strong reaction on here and elsewhere, to a woman who is pretty normal, just not a submissive, shrinking violet (reminds me a bit of Leah Remini's character in her tv show. I guess she's a psychopath), tells me that a woman who doesn't adhere to certain societal expectations about gender - that a woman doesn't give directions or instructions to a man, that a woman can't make jokes at a man's expense about winninng or she's a monstrous, emasculating shrew, that a woman can't be in control, decisive and a leader in her relationship with her man or other men, that a normal woman is always exceedingly maternal, soft spoken, submissive, sweet, supportive and yielding- women who don't adhere to those "norms" are soundly punished by society.

I feel Shanann is being punished here for daring to step outside those norms. She's a shrew. She pushed him to murder. She may even have murdered the kids herself.

But what's important is that those norms clearly exist. And if educated, informed people here react to them harshly, what about a man who may not be as educated? What about a man from a traditional family or area? One who is more quiet and introverted? Might he quietly seethe at his woman daring to make decisions or give commands or make an impression or get attention?

I never forget someone on here posted a video SW took of her thrive people dancing. She was giggling and laughing and in the background her husband stood quietly, standing sideways, but his head turned, just silently watching his exuberant wife.

The poster explained that it reminded her so much of her ex husband. Who was a secretly abusive creep. He would watch her like that and I guess count the ways her behavior dislpleased him. He was jealous of her and he punished her later for it.

Well maybe CW wasn't secretly abusive. Maybe he never vocally expressed any displeasure toward her at all. But he clearly punished her in the end anyway. He took away almost everything that mattered to her. He took away her babies her precious children, and he took away her life, the very breath from her body.

She dared to step outside of societal gender norms. People deem that emasculating. IMO far from it but it makes a point. If that's how some normal people view her behavior, what about a person with a secret defect of character?

So in the end, after this long rambling post, in a way I agree with many who say this dynamic might explain some things.

It does. For me it explains that women who dare to veer from certain gender norms are still punished by society. They're deemed not to be good mothers. Bad wives. Wives who pushed their hapless men to violence.

The incredibly strong negative reaction to these cherry picked videos by some who seem to be turning the tables here and deeming the victim to be the abuser and the murderer to be the victim, tells me that the reaction to this strong, decisive woman could be much more deadly on the part of a defective monster who quietly seethed at all she dared to be, and all he never was.

Shanann Watts

Beautifully articulated Gitana

 

[NuttMegg]

Good Morning,

Catching up and wanted to bring forward this post from @gitana1 from the last thread:

“I think the judge decides. Looks like the sentencing court has discretion. If there's more than one victim a consecutive sentence could be more likely:

Concurrent vs. Consecutive Sentencing in Colorado | Denver Criminal Defense Attorneys | Arapahoe County Criminal Defense Law Firm

If the jury convicts him of second degree murder for Shanann, but with a heat of passion finding, he could get a reduced sentence.

Second degree murder = minimum of 16 years in Colorado and up to 48.

Second degree murder is reduced to third degree "extraordinary risk" felony with a range of 4-16 years, if they find he acted with a heat of passion.

"Second Degree Murder" |Colorado Law 18-3-103 C.R.S.

Class 3 Felony Crimes in Colorado

I believe there's no chance in hell a judge would sentence him to 4 years.

I don't see any scenario, even if he is believed, where a jury could find this to be just manslaughter "reckless killing". 2-6 years prison.
Colorado "manslaughter" laws (explained by defense lawyers)

@MCDRAW asked me last thread if I thought he could get acquitted. I'm pretty confident he won't. But I'm scared of the process to get there. Like a hung jury first.

I think, I hope, I pray it will be guilty of five counts of first degree murder.“

———

I find gitana’s post extremely relevant because as I mentioned before, I lean more towards a snapping vs elaborately planned murder. Moo.

I think a poll would be interesting, snapped vs premeditation.

It could be like the JMD case, the first of the 2 murders, the wife and then the child who presumably came in to see it, were bludgened then stabbed and icepicked...ended up as 2nd degree. (snapping?) It was 1st deg murder of the other little girl, to tie up some loose ends, on his sicko narrative. That could have resulted in the jury's decision, ie "planned" in your poll.

I hope it's OK to mention other cases when they seem to have a direct parallel to CW/SW. If not, someone let me know and I'll delete it.

 

[Ginger_Hazel]

Just because I am not charmed by the videos does not mean I have a problem with strong women. For Pete's sake.

And I haven't noticed anyone suggesting SW drove CW to kill his family.

We've hit some nerves. I'm scrolling for awhile.

jmo

Agreed. I’m the “boss” in my relationship and my kids often say “moms in charge”, but I remind them that dad is in charge too and to respect both of us. Personally I do find the videos to shed some light on the situation and just because SW is the victim does not mean that she didnt treat C.W. with disrespect in many of those videos (that is not victim blaming IMO). It’s one thing to be a strong female, it’s another to be rude and condescending to your spouse. On one video she said something along the lines of “see guys my husband doesn’t know how to listen” and rolls her eyes as she walks into the garage. If my husband posted stuff like that about me online I’d be hurt. Aren’t you supposed to be a husband and wife team, on the same side of things? Even if you are teasing/ribbing someone you don’t generally gloat for 10 minutes about winning a game... thats called being a poor sport and as children we are taught NOT to do that.

I don’t know why I’m overanalyzing the videos, as it really doesn’t matter. At the end of the day C.W. is still a murderer and a monster and I’m 100% on SW’s side. May she RIP.

 

[Thepoet]

It's pretty incredible.

If people saw me in my home I guess they'd think I'm a serial killer based on how people are reacting to some cherry-picked videos on here.

We have to remember a few things:

1. She is holding the camera and trying to film a situation or narrative or whatever. It's her "show" so she's directing. I do the very same thing in videos. "Move there. Come here. Smile!"
2. We literally have the benefit of viewing this family from only one lens. Why? Because the murderer deleted his Facebook a week before the slaughter. He would be likely to post his own videos from his own phone. But that's gone. So we don't know what it looks like when he's on the other end of the camera or when he's running the show. We are getting only one picture. Dissecting this poor dead woman and her family from only one view and cherry-picked videos people are posting in an effort to show she's a monster of some sort.
3. Some people don't parent or treat children with kid gloves. They know kids that age cry a lot. They cry when they want something or don't want something or think something is scary or get mad. So some people don't make a big deal about kids getting upset for a second and try to teach them to be a bit tougher. It's not my style but it's not abuse.
Reminds me of a dear friend of mine. Actually is similar to Shanann in personality. She and her mom. Lots of joking and ribbing. She sort of downplays it when her kids cry or act upset over little things. But the minute they're truly hurt or upset, she's the one they run to. Her husband is a very quiet, stoic person. She is half Italian and outgoing and seems to run the house. But it's not true. He actually does.

It also reminds me of me versus my ex. Scenario? I hear yelling and whining as my ex is roughhousing. "Put him down! He doesn't like it! He's upset!"
"Oh he loves it."
"Damn it put him down!" (It really annoys me).
"If he's upset why isn't he trying to get away? And why does he keep coming back when I put him down?"
(Totally true).

I don't like squirting anyone in the face with anything. I worry about their eyes. And a child can get the idea that a bottle that sprays is a toy to use on another kid's face, not understanding that that's windex or whatever.

That beings said, anyone analzying any good parent for long enough can find things to criticize. And damn it, they do.

It's amazing how harsh people can be about other people's parenting. The Sanctimommies out there just freaking out over every last thing people do with their kids that's shown on tv or online. Just losing their minds over "My God!! You're holding the baby wrong, using the baby sling wrong, using the car seat wrong, you should have done this or that or the other!"

It's endlessly eyerolling to me. We have become a generation of sanctimonious judges of others due in part to the ability to monitor people's parenting on the internet and partly because we are the hysterical "safety" generation and exposing children to the tiniest bit of danger of discomfort is now a cardinal sin.

And it's creating a bunch of kids who don't know the limits of their own bodies or how to problem solve or socialize without their parents' constant supervision and interference and it's creating a bunch of adults who think it's acceptable to pick someone to death over the tiniest flaws they see in photos or videos posted online.

One thing I will say though is that yes, how she interacts in these few, cherry picked videos with her schlub of a husband lurking around in them, may be indicative of a relationship-dynamic that he grew to resent, loathe and eventually to hate her over.

But not because she was a nasty woman, or controlling or mean-spiritited or because he was cowed or abused or a victim or anything else that I've been seeing on here.

Nope. It's because IMO the intensely strong reaction on here and elsewhere, to a woman who is pretty normal, just not a submissive, shrinking violet (reminds me a bit of Leah Remini's character in her tv show. I guess she's a psychopath), tells me that a woman who doesn't adhere to certain societal expectations about gender - that a woman doesn't give directions or instructions to a man, that a woman can't make jokes at a man's expense about winninng or she's a monstrous, emasculating shrew, that a woman can't be in control, decisive and a leader in her relationship with her man or other men, that a normal woman is always exceedingly maternal, soft spoken, submissive, sweet, supportive and yielding- women who don't adhere to those "norms" are soundly punished by society.

I feel Shanann is being punished here for daring to step outside those norms. She's a shrew. She pushed him to murder. She may even have murdered the kids herself.

But what's important is that those norms clearly exist. And if educated, informed people here react to them harshly, what about a man who may not be as educated? What about a man from a traditional family or area? One who is more quiet and introverted? Might he quietly seethe at his woman daring to make decisions or give commands or make an impression or get attention?

I never forget someone on here posted a video SW took of her thrive people dancing. She was giggling and laughing and in the background her husband stood quietly, standing sideways, but his head turned, just silently watching his exuberant wife.

The poster explained that it reminded her so much of her ex husband. Who was a secretly abusive creep. He would watch her like that and I guess count the ways her behavior dislpleased him. He was jealous of her and he punished her later for it.

Well maybe CW wasn't secretly abusive. Maybe he never vocally expressed any displeasure toward her at all. But he clearly punished her in the end anyway. He took away almost everything that mattered to her. He took away her babies her precious children, and he took away her life, the very breath from her body.

She dared to step outside of societal gender norms. People deem that emasculating. IMO far from it but it makes a point. If that's how some normal people view her behavior, what about a person with a secret defect of character?

So in the end, after this long rambling post, in a way I agree with many who say this dynamic might explain some things.

It does. For me it explains that women who dare to veer from certain gender norms are still punished by society. They're deemed not to be good mothers. Bad wives. Wives who pushed their hapless men to violence.

The incredibly strong negative reaction to these cherry picked videos by some who seem to be turning the tables here and deeming the victim to be the abuser and the murderer to be the victim, tells me that the reaction to this strong, decisive woman could be much more deadly on the part of a defective monster who quietly seethed at all she dared to be, and all he never was.

Shanann Watts

Very well said Gitana. Excellent points. Bravo!

 

[margarita25]

In addition to a poll asking whether you guys lean more to towards premeditation or “snapping”, I would ask do you guys think the girls were already dead when Shannan got home.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

I tried to watch that video; it was very uncomfortable. I did not watch to the very end. Two things I took away from what I saw (my own perception only, not necessarily fact, just my own interpretation..) 1. SW was an unhappy woman (through her eyes), and 2. The unspoken exchange between SW and her father got me thinking that there is a whole lot more about the unhappy couple that we (of course) don't know. I think her dad knows a whole lot.

On the other video..the pie in the eye thing.. Very hard to watch. I can only imagine the vibes going on there. Whew! Poor kids.. This is my own opinion, I am not victim bashing. I hope my mind stays open to waiting for the whole truth to come out.

One last thought..what happened to our poster who was hoping to be made a VI, who was very nervous about their identity being learned? If they bolted from here, I wouldn't blame them. A lot of judgmental posts were made. If they are around but not commenting, I just want to say I personally supported your right to voice your opinions, even if I might not agree with them. Just in case you're reading.

Great post. I’m trying to keep an open mind as well and it’s been extremely hard to do.

 

[Bill Carson]

I swore not to watch any of them, but I did click on the Christmas one, that was excruciating, no one seemed to want anything to do with the occasion except SW. I was wondering if that camera or go pro or whatever it was has a constant light on it, facing the people being filmed. Also if she weren't always holding it it could seem less intrusive.

With Santa, probably best to get a friend to be Santa, so Daddy is not missing from the event. JMHO

Okay, just finished the Christmas video. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. Yes, children are terrified of people dressed up like Santa--that's not shocking in the least. It seemed like this video was more for family, but I sensed that members of her team were on there, too.

The most shocking thing about that video was the fact that Santa only brought water bottles and slippers---pretty lame, Santa!