Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #25

[MyBelle]

Midwifery Myth: Midwives do not handle high-risk pregnancies

At my state's top NICU-which is also the state's university medical school--the program's nurse-midwives do NOT handle high-risk pregnancies. I can only go by my own experience.

 

[PommyMommy]

Delete...oops, meant to edit

 

[human]

I am not certain in SW’s case unless she shared her post-op x-rays online.... but when I had the same surgery a few different times, I had hardware placed in my neck to support the vertebra where the fusion occurred while the new bone graft or other material forms in place.

The hardware is usually permanent and will stregthen that vertebrae, but it can mean other vertebrae immediately above and below may be more susceptible to injury because the repaired one will be immobile and it will place extra stress on the adjoining levels. Hope this makes sense! I am still waking up, LOL.

If you want to view the hardware on the spine, you can Google: cervical fusion hardware x-ray. The ones used on the back side look more like zip strips. The ones used on the front side look more like a filled in hourglass or figure 8 shape.

 

[MerryB]

I'm not sure I see the logic, either. I read it three times and still can't figure out what it could mean.

OK, I’m going to attempt to answer this question. But first I want to make clear:
a) I am still undecided about what happened that fateful night and
b) I am not speaking for anyone but myself, and I encourage others to share their thoughts & opinions on this as well.

“Why does this matter?” you ask. It may not. However, it may give us insight into a much bigger issue.

Let me preface this by saying I have degrees in psychology & child development but I am not a psychologist. I have postgraduate degrees in other related fields. I have spent years working with children & their families. However, I obviously have not formally assessed anyone we are discussing. These are just my observations.

Perhaps subjecting your children to unnecessary & numerous appointments, testing & treatment is a form of mistreatment. I know another poster brought up the possibility of MBP, but I’m not even going down that road. Just the daily appointments alone build a picture of compulsion. This may well show a need for attention, and putting that need above the childrens’ needs for consistent schooling, play, and autonomy.

 

[MsBetsy]

Again, we are assuming this was a high-risk pregnancy. IMO there are several signs it was not.
I think we’ve already established a lot of what SW posted on SM was not true.

I assumed it was high risk because I have seen it a dozen times stated as fact with no indication of opinion only. I have seen it several times on this case. On another case I have been following for two months if someone forgets to moo or imo or whatever, several posts will follow reminding them to not state opinion as fact. On this case it doesn't seem to be a big deal at all. Very confused. Jmo

 

[MyBelle]

Again, we are assuming this was a high-risk pregnancy. IMO there are several signs it was not.
I think we’ve already established a lot of what SW posted on SM was not true.

ITA. Using a midwife is a pretty clear sign it wasn't a high-risk pregnancy.JMO

 

[MJPeony]

“In voir dire lawyers for each side question the potential jurors about their biases and backgrounds, as well as any pre-existing knowledge they might have about the case. The attorneys can also ask questions designed to uncover characteristics or experiences that might cause potential jurors to favor either the prosecution or the defense.”

This is why we, the posters on WS, have differences of opinion. Our life experiences play a huge role in how we see things. From my life experiences, I see CW as a helpful husband, with chores and with the kids. I see SW as bossy and condescending. So much is said about how SW could have flown even greater heights if she’d had a better husband. I had a husband who didn’t change a single diaper, wash a single dish or even mow the grass. I not only worked but I did everything else. I look back and don’t know how I managed it all. He would just go to the basement and drink and think of ways to make my life even more hellish with his put downs, silent treatments, etc. I have been on the receiving end of snarky comments and those I got were private. I can’t imagine if he had talked to me that way publicly. None of what I did was appreciated. Let’s pretend for a moment that all my husband did was not appreciate me. That alone gave me a deep sadness. I did not feel valued. I was overworked and we (the children and I) walked on eggshells. I left for my sanity. I would have loved having a helpful husband. With the Watts, there are tons of videos that in my opinion show him as great with the kids and helping around the house. Heck, she would even take off on trips and leave the girls with him. For SW it seemed to me to be all about her, Thrive, her friends, having a certain lifestyle (not just projecting one) and Social Media. That’s a lot of fluff with no substance. And when somebody’s ego constantly gets trampled in public & they feel devalued, they are ripe for an affair. I know SW is a victim. Of course she’s a victim. The children are beyond innocent victims. But I would guess that living far beyond their means, another baby on the way they can’t afford, living a life for Social Media with every move filmed, and feeling belittled made this man a pressure cooker ready to explode. I’m going to take a note from @Tippy Lynn and state imo, jmo and moo!

Excellent post maeleemae.

(And I'm sorry you had to deal with such a bad previous experience.)

 

[Johnny1181]

OK, I’m going to attempt to answer this question. But first I want to make clear:
a) I am still undecided about what happened that fateful night and
b) I am not speaking for anyone but myself, and I encourage others to share their thoughts & opinions on this as well.

“Why does this matter?” you ask. It may not. However, it may give us insight into a much bigger issue.

Let me preface this by saying I have degrees in psychology & child development but I am not a psychologist. I have postgraduate degrees in other related fields. I have spent years working with children & their families. However, I obviously have not formally assessed anyone we are discussing. These are just my observations.

Perhaps subjecting your children to unnecessary & numerous appointments, testing & treatment is a form of mistreatment. I know another poster brought up the possibility of MBP, but I’m not even going down that road. Just the daily appointments alone build a picture of compulsion. This may well show a need for attention, and putting that need above the childrens’ needs for consistent schooling, play, and autonomy.

This may also show.... although we do not have medical records.... a woman who had a challenging time getting her own diagnosis after years of suffering and a very loving concern for her daughters.

JMO

 

[Deleted member 229974]

The inside latch wasn’t locked when she came home. Her friend NA saw her open the door when she dropped her off. It was latched the next morning when she came by to check on CW.

I wonder just what C.W. plan was before NA showed up. He sure wasn’t expecting her to ruin his plans. I’ve read SW flight was delayed by two hours and that is why she got home at 2AM, instead of midnight, like he expected.

 

[MKZoo]

My daughter delivered twins after a high-risk pregnancy and the nurse-midwives program at the university hospital were not an option for her.

That was obviously not the case with my SIL. And I don’t think we know at all what might pertain to SW.

Side note: I hope your daughter and grandchildren fared well through the pregnancy and delivery.

 

[Ultra Violet]

My cousin's kid had colic really bad and the chiro cured him.

My sister-in-law in another state had the same scenario with my youngest niece. It was a LIFECHANGER for them. The baby cried non-stop for months and I was gob-smacked to hear that the adjustments arranged by her spouse had helped. I would have never believed it.

I am not a fan of chiropractors that put patients on what I call Sales Plans to take advantage of patients and schedule endless series of appointments that do more harm than good in the end, but I do believe there are good ones out there.

 

[MerryB]

This may also show.... although we do not have medical records.... a woman who had a challenging time getting her own diagnosis after years of suffering and a very loving concern for her daughters.

JMO

Perhaps.

 

[Johnny1181]

I am posting the evidence we know of again as some have asked. If anyone has other evidence to add please copy and add.

Evidence of triple murder:

1. Dad claims he saw a blue child on a baby monitor at night.

2. The coincidence of two people, unrelated by blood, both reacting to something in a short span of time by losing their minds and committing homicide, defies reason.

3. The coincidence of those same people both committing homicide in the exact same manner -strangulation- is unlikely.

4. A father passionate enough with love for his children, to kill at the sight of them being harmed, would be desperate beyond reason to save them. But:
a. Dad failed to call 911 to try to save his children. Even if he thought they were beyond help, a parentslove is so intense they will desperately and irrationally try for help that will never come.
b. There is no account of him throwing off the mother and working desperately to revive them or resuscitate them. Hell, total strangers have performed CPR on a child's corpse in rigor. (Cooper Harris case). But a passionately loving dad didn't even try in this case?

5. The dad failed to call 911 after killing his wife in a supposed fury of emotion.

6. Dad also failed to run screaming onto the lawn for help or in anguish.
In cases of such Greek tragedy magnitude either 5 or 6 usually comes into play.

7. This entire scene - the "emotional argument", the vicious strangulation of two children, the father witnessing the incomprehensible and reacting with murderous fury and anguish - all of it was totally silent. Except for the poor dog howling that night. How do we know? Because the houses are in close proximity and neighbors mentioned hearing nothing but the dog the next day IIRC.

8. CW did not scream or wail in anguish so great that it caused him to murder his wife. Not one report of such sounds.

9. CW supposedly lost his mind in grief and anguish. However he regained it in moments in a manner that does not comport with a true mental break. In cases we have seen where people lose it and commit murder, they are typically either wailing on the lawn and to 911 operators or they are in an apparent psychotic state- not lying about what happened, not covering it up, not able to function normally at all. See thumbnail of Julie Schenecker as an example of what this looks like. Police interview Julie Schenecker after kids found dead

10. CW, after such an insanely, horrific Greek tragedy of a scene, calmly loaded up the bodies of his wife and children in order to conceal their deaths and dispose of them. We know this because a neighbor stated she witnessed him leaving. (No reports of wailing and she said, IIRC, the truck drove normally. So no veering, spinning of tires or other signs of lack of composure). And it's apparently on video.

11. CW, a man passionately in love enough with his kids to erupt in murderous rage when they're harmed, did not attempt to give them a burial that comports psychologically with the love and bond parents have with their kids. Death Rituals Reported by White, Black, and Hispanic Parents Following the ICU Death of an Infant or Child
A Global History of Child Death

12. Instead he dumps them in two separate vats of oil. Not together. No way to commemorate their lives. Concealed. Discarded. In a manner that veers from any known traditional burial rite of any kind.

13. CW went to work and monitored the ring video of his house. After the horrific Greek tragedy he just endured. He went to work. And monitored the video of his front door.

14. CW left a few voice messages and sent some texts to the wife he knew was dead, thus calmly concealing what happened.

15. CW calmly called SW's friend after she came to the door and he saw her on the ring video. He asked what was going on. We know this because he stated as much and this is corroborated by the friend.

16. CW rushed home - blowing stop signs and with beating heart, according to him- when CW came to the house and expressed alarm. The first time we have heard of a hint of emotion on his part since the horrific murders of his kids supposedly by his wife and his heat of passion killing of her, occurs when he the authorities are about to get involved.

17. CW cooly lied to the friend about where SW was supposed to be that day and why she wasn't at home. After he lost his mind the night before. He is calm and able to work to conceal those events.

18. There is not one hint of brief reactive psychosis or drug induced psychosis in CW's demeanor and behavior since 5:15 am the morning of the deaths, nor the next day as he gives calm and detailed interviews to the media. His pupils are normal. He is not slurring speech. He does not have a vacant stare. He exhibits no delusions or paranoia. He is not showing emotional lability. (I'm no expert in psychology but have seen a few psychotic people due to psychotic breaks or drugs and it's easy to research).

19. CW shows no anguish, depression, grief, concern, sadness or despair during his stoic media interviews, despite having supposedly been so deranged by his passionate love for his kids that he killed their attacker. His eyes are dry. Not red. No signs of puffiness from weeping. His face is smooth and calm. He looks well rested. No bags under his eyes. He smiles. He grins. He smirks. All with the knowledge that his insane wife savagely murdered his precious babies causing him to lose his mind with anguish. And with the knowledge that the people he loved so fiercely it caused him to kill, are rotting in separate vats of oil.

20. CW calmly and continuously lies to the media about the whereabouts of his dead wife and dead children.

21. CW systematically works with LE to track down his wife and kids. Brainstorming. Supplying numbers and addresses. Calling people. All the while knowing they are dead and decomposing.

22. CW is questioned and lies about having an affair. A motive in many murders of wives.

23. SW was pregnant. (A circumstance present in vast numbers of murders of spouses or parents by men).

24. Some people and report that CW seemed distant with his wife and kids in the weeks leading up to this monstrous event.

25. CW was not hospitalized for any reason after this tragedy.

A couple of things from the CO model jury instructions:

D:01 DIRECT AND CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE—NO DISTINCTION

A fact may be proven by either direct or circumstantial evidence. Under the law, both are acceptable ways to prove something. Neither is necessarily more reliable than the other.


E:03 PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE, BURDEN OF PROOF, AND REASONABLE DOUBT

Reasonable doubt means a doubt based upon reason and common sense which arises from a fair and rational consideration of all of the evidence, or the lack of evidence, in the case. It is a doubt which is not a vague, speculative or imaginary doubt, but such a doubt as would cause reasonable people to hesitate to act in matters of importance to themselves.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/Supreme_Court/Committees/Criminal_Jury_Instructions/2017/COLJI-Crim 2017 - Final.pdf

This. And this. And this. JMO

 

[Gardener1850]

It's in one of the early threads. SW complained about her MIL on a message board yet she was doing the same thing. That's when I started wondering if the kids really did have allergies or did she make it up to get sympathy and call attention to herself. JMO

For crying out loud, no mom of allergic kids is perfect! If she failed to check or misread a label it doesn't mean she was making up her kids condition. Not at all. In fact many mom's of allergic kids learn the hard way when they are tired and miss something and their kid has to have medicine or go to the hospital. Then guess what the reaction is? Hyper-vigilance again. Extra caution. Telling others to please don't give one child something the other can't have. Maybe she knew from past experience that her girls would instantly play together after eating and be hugging each other and it is impossible to clean up a child of all allergens short of changing her clothes and giving her a bath? (Not to mention it is incredibly cruel to the small child who can't understand why she doesn't get a treat). Some allergic children will test this and try to grab some anyway. Or sometimes the younger kids who got the treat don't understand and try to sneak some to their sibling later. Is it really worth risking the child's life to "teach her she can't always have what she wants"? Probably not from the viewpoint of the parent. JMO.

Parents of newly diagnosed kids might be extra careful as well until they figure things out like how sensitive their child is-- Not all tree nut allergic kids have to avoid items manufactured on the same equipment, although it is good practice. And although tree nut allergic kids can be allergic to coconut too I have NEVER known a tree-nut allergy child that avoid coconut as well. I have a child in my family with tree nut allergies. Another child has cow milk allergies. We got them coconut milk ice cream (no nuts) one year for a birthday party so that neither child had to be concerned or keep track of which ice cream they could eat. When the nut allergic child was really little they were extra careful because she didn't understand and she couldn't communicate as easily if she was having a reaction. They kept their home nut free for several years, the other kids in the family did not get to eat nuts in her presence and they asked family not to eat nuts in her presence. As she has grown up she has learned to recognize her symptoms and we have found she can be around nuts just fine without reaction-- we just tell her "this has nuts in it" and she won't touch us or get too close. We wash our hands when done eating to keep her safe. Other kids however might never get to this level of comfort or might not be able to safely sit at a table with people eating their allergens.

And I can't believe I have just typed all this out but I hope this is the last response to the topic of allergies I ever make. Food allergies are not a made up illness. Especially when the children have epipens. That indicates a medical doctor diagnosed them and deemed the allergy to possibly be life threatening.

 

[Jennifer17]

OK, I’m going to attempt to answer this question. But first I want to make clear:
a) I am still undecided about what happened that fateful night and
b) I am not speaking for anyone but myself, and I encourage others to share their thoughts & opinions on this as well.

“Why does this matter?” you ask. It may not. However, it may give us insight into a much bigger issue.

Let me preface this by saying I have degrees in psychology & child development but I am not a psychologist. I have postgraduate degrees in other related fields. I have spent years working with children & their families. However, I obviously have not formally assessed anyone we are discussing. These are just my observations.

Perhaps subjecting your children to unnecessary & numerous appointments, testing & treatment is a form of mistreatment. I know another poster brought up the possibility of MBP, but I’m not even going down that road. Just the daily appointments alone build a picture of compulsion. This may well show a need for attention, and putting that need above the childrens’ needs for consistent schooling, play, and autonomy.

The daily visits have been explained several times as allergy test visits by people who have had them themselves.

 

[molly1255]

Again, we are assuming this was a high-risk pregnancy. IMO there are several signs it was not.
I think we’ve already established a lot of what SW posted on SM was not true.

I disagree that this has been established. JMO.

 

[Johnny1181]

For crying out loud, no mom of allergic kids is perfect! If she failed to check or misread a label it doesn't mean she was making up her kids condition. Not at all. In fact many mom's of allergic kids learn the hard way when they are tired and miss something and their kid has to have medicine or go to the hospital. Then guess what the reaction is? Hyper-vigilance again. Extra caution. Telling others to please don't give one child something the other can't have. Maybe she knew from past experience that her girls would instantly play together after eating and be hugging each other and it is impossible to clean up a child of all allergens short of changing her clothes and giving her a bath? (Not to mention it is incredibly cruel to the small child who can't understand why she doesn't get a treat). Some allergic children will test this and try to grab some anyway. Or sometimes the younger kids who got the treat don't understand and try to sneak some to their sibling later. Is it really worth risking the child's life to "teach her she can't always have what she wants"? Probably not from the viewpoint of the parent. JMO.

Parents of newly diagnosed kids might be extra careful as well until they figure things out like how sensitive their child is-- Not all tree nut allergic kids have to avoid items manufactured on the same equipment, although it is good practice. And although tree nut allergic kids can be allergic to coconut too I have NEVER known a tree-nut allergy child that avoid coconut as well. I have a child in my family with tree nut allergies. Another child has cow milk allergies. We got them coconut milk ice cream (no nuts) one year for a birthday party so that neither child had to be concerned or keep track of which ice cream they could eat. When the nut allergic child was really little they were extra careful because she didn't understand and she couldn't communicate as easily if she was having a reaction. They kept their home nut free for several years, the other kids in the family did not get to eat nuts in her presence and they asked family not to eat nuts in her presence. As she has grown up she has learned to recognize her symptoms and we have found she can be around nuts just fine without reaction-- we just tell her "this has nuts in it" and she won't touch us or get too close. We wash our hands when done eating to keep her safe. Other kids however might never get to this level of comfort or might not be able to safely sit at a table with people eating their allergens.

And I can't believe I have just type all this out but I hope this is the last response to the topic of allergies I ever make. Food allergies are not a made up illness. Especially when the children have epipens. That indicates a medical doctor diagnosed them and deemed the allergy to possibly be life threatening.

Yes

 

[Noreen McGurl]

Hi I'm brand new but I want everybody to look up Manling Williams case from California very similar but it's the mother who's having the affair and horribly kills her little boys and her husband possible insight...having affair and wants a new start, so SAD!!!

 

[Ronso]

Also, I feel like this shouldn't NEED to be pointed out, but high risk pregnancy is different than someone with a previous high risk delivery.

High risk deliveries are a whole different ballgame. You can have a "high risk" pregnancy with an uncomplicated delivery. You can be "high risk" and never develop any conditions that actually create complications. A high risk delivery means there was a complication. Someone who has had complications in previous deliveries would not qualify to be seen under a midwife. There is nothing to suggest that Shan'ann, prior to this pregnancy, had any complicated deliveries.

 

[BeanieBod]

Concerning the discussion in the previous thread about CW possibly having a Chem Engineering degree:

Unless I'm missing something, the University of Miami does not have a Chem Eng program. Miami University (as in Miami, Ohio) does, however. Does anyone know if CW spent 4-odd years in Ohio at some point? Cause no one gets a bachelors in engineering online, it's just not possible to get that kind of degree without years of hands-on coursework. (Source: am married to one.)

Thank you, @LadyO. I had researched the same data and completely concur with your findings that U of M does not have a Chemical Engineering degree in their broad curriculum. To work as an Operator in the field, a Chem. Eng. degree would not be required or needed. However, his NASCAR mechanical training would have added to his skill level. All MOO.

 

[gregjrichards]

Christopher Watts, the man accused of killing his pregnant wife and two young daughters in August is apparently severely depressed after being kept in isolation after more than a month in jail.


A source at the Weld County Jail in Colorado confirmed that the 33-year-old murder defendant is now on suicide watch.

'He's not doing well at all,' a source told People. 'The gravity of the situation has hit him like a ton of bricks. Depression is setting in, and he's despondent.'

'Depression is setting in' for Chris Watts jailed for the death of his pregnant wife | Daily Mail Online

 

[Johnny1181]

I can't wait for the day when women are believed... whether it's the friend that knew to call the police because something was wrong (thank G she was believed) or the woman who could only leave her truth by dropping her shoes at the door, purse on the counter, phone in between cushions and suitcase at the bottom of the stairs. And 2 babies "dumped" in oil.