Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #28

[flourish]

We are speculating of course.
Video of him after wife and girls are missing (or video of him after having to kill his wife and unborn child)
vs
Normal everyday things for show

Kind of a big difference in what we should be/are observing.

Since we have known each other a long time... I feel like you would see those interviews as highly disturbing. Am I missing something?

Always good to see you!

I'm as surprised as you that I'm not in the majority here. It's strange for me, but also informative about how minorities on other cases may have perceived things.

I'm withholding judgement about his possibly killing the girls, because at this point, I have reasonable doubt on that. Additional evidence like Chris sized hand bruising or his DNA in significant amounts under nails, etc., will be incredibly likely to influence my thoughts and get me off the fence. I'm just not there yet.

I keep remembering how critical people were of me when my child was fatally injured. Before it became public knowledge that his father had injured him, my every expression was analyzed and no matter what, I was considered "wrong." If I was crying, I was "hysterical," if I wasn't, I was "cold." If I dared smile, well then I was clearly a monster. I was told I was "rather stoic" at his funeral. In short, I know what it's like to be in an awful position and be judged for every breath, every muscle movement, and I'm not keen on assuming the worst of him based on smiling in an interview.

Like I've mentioned before, my father is socially awkward, and laughs and smiles nervously whenever he is nervous, anxious, uncomfortable, unsure, etc.

I'll let the evidence tell me, and I'm fine with analyzing all the information available, including his interviews. However, there seems to be a double standard where, if one looks at him and finds all monster, and looks at SW and finds all perfection, then it's fine to use photos and videos to draw those conclusions, but when someone looks at those same photos and videos and comes to a different conclusion, well then they're victim blaming, disparaging, and just plain "wrong."

That's just where I am coming from at this point. I'd say more, but I've had enough tomatoes baths this week lol.

As always, my opinion is subject to change; and I have working theories which have him killing everyone, so I'm not stuck to one theory, I just still have reasonable doubt, subject to change with additional information.

 

[Tigerlily75]

After @gitana1 posted the list of cases where the autopsy results were kept sealed, I started reading about Sandra Cantu. That poor little girl was sexually assaulted with a rolling pin by a deeply disturbed neighbor. And then I started asking myself why was Bella killed first? I don’t see any reason why C.W. would lie about Bella being the first to be strangled, but who knows? She was starting kindergarten. She was the oldest daughter. SW was not home at the time. People Magazine did say C.W. had many sexual encounters with a wide variety of partners. Is it possible C.W. was so sexually disturbed that he could have assaulted Bella? And then accidentally killed her in the process? That’s why LE doesn’t want to release the autopsy reports? And the other murders are part of a coverup? God, I hope not.

Oh gosh. That’s really not been on my radar at all. But interesting that you mention this, there was a case here similar to the Watts that I’ve mentioned before - The Sharpe Family Murders in Victoria, Australia. Seemingly happy marriage, one little girl 20 months, a baby boy on the way. He was the quiet one, she was outgoing. He later described her as “bossy and controlling”.

He killed his wife, then 4 days later killed his daughter. He pretended she ran off with another man. (No NUA here!). Even sent flowers and emails to her family pretending to be from her.

Long story short, he ended up confessing and plead guilty. It later emerged he had history of sexual abuse, and her family believes his wife may have discovered him interfering with their daughter, so he killed her.

I don’t believe he’s ever said why he did it.

Who knows what shocks are to come (but please not that!!)

 

[MassGuy]

We do know he is guilty of killing his pregnant wife and putting the bodies in #crude oil bc he has confessed to that . The motion about the may be prints on trash bags even stated the defendant won’t testify to bc it was relative to “collection evidence “ this was stated on second page of motion . The reason we have the information is his confession . I think the interview does indicate anxiety , deceit , stress, disbelief ,shock . We know he was not telling the truth during that interview bc now we have a confession as well . What is unclear is how to convict someone because you only believe 98% of the confession.

Throw out the confession. Throw out the interviews. His coverup speaks for iself, and the investigation will likely bury him.

 

[katydid23]

Hindsight is 20/20. If we are just going by happy and upbeat...then look at the Tibbets. Mom was laughing in one video. Dad and the boyfriend were making jokes. We can all look at the video now and see tons of things there and judge based on what we would do.

But none of the Tibbet's knew yet what happened. Their girl may have been alive, safe somewhere yet. None of the Tibbets had crammed Mollie into an oil vat or buried her in the dirt.

The difference is, CW already knew his family was dead and gone. And according to him, he watched his pregnant wife kill his children, then he killed her and his unborn son. So how could he be so casual and smiley the next day?

 

[WildWest]

SW didn’t arrive home until 2 AM. that evening. Don’t know what time Bella was killed. According to People Magazine CW had a wide variety of partners. This is just a theory that makes sense to me with the information we’ve been given, but I hope it’s a bad one.

Sorry to let type this outloud, I've had similar thoughts, what caught me is she was the quieter one of the two kids, in my case anyway that made me a target when I was very young opposed "Rampage" CeCe might have talked (or in my case many other little girls). No rolling pin required for this kind of disgusting behavior. No evidence whatseover, just aweful thoughts that crossed my mind. Might have been as simple as a pillow that quieted her and on there too long.

 

[MassGuy]

They don't seem to have a problem with DNA though. It's hand prints, foot prints, etc. Are those classified the same?

They did request his DNA in one of the motions. Palm prints may not have been standard procedure in booking. The foot prints they definitely would not have taken during booking, so they certainly need to request those.

 

[Jennifer17]

Oh gosh. That’s really not been on my radar at all. But interesting that you mention this, there was a case here similar to the Watts that I’ve mentioned before - The Sharpe Family Murders in Victoria, Australia. Seemingly happy marriage, one little girl 20 months, a baby boy on the way. He was the quiet one, she was outgoing. He later described her as “bossy and controlling”.

He killed his wife, then 4 days later killed his daughter. He pretended she ran off with another man. (No NUA here!). Even sent flowers and emails to her family pretending to be from her.

Long story short, he ended up confessing and plead guilty. It later emerged he had history of sexual abuse, and her family believes his wife may have discovered him interfering with their daughter, so he killed her.

I don’t believe he’s ever said why he did it.

Who knows what shocks are to come (but please not that!!)

And he killed them in an incredibly cruel manner.

 

[MJPeony]

Throw out the confession. Throw out the interviews. His coverup speaks for iself, and the investigation will likely bury him.

I don’t think the coverup necessarily speaks for itself- but I agree that it’s the coverup that is really hard to get past (for me at least) and will be the biggest hurdle for his defense.
JMO.

 

[dgfred]

It makes sense to me because it answers the question why kill the children? Never made sense to me before. But I do realize it’s a huge stretch, and there is absolutely no concrete evidence to back it up. But I saw him with his children, and I believe he loved them. Something BIG must have gone down for him to believe the best solution was to kill them. Something that jeopardized or threatened him, personally. There had to have been something in it for him, and it had to be bigger than not wanting to pay child support. I cant figure out what it is.

I am starting to think he immediately knew he was done for after killing SW... and didn't want the girls to live with a killed mom and a dad on death row/life for killing her. I can't believe for one second he actually thought he would 'get away' with what had happened... how could he?
He really did little to conceal what had happened. Hid the bodies at the only place he could, didn't hide other evidence, didn't have a real plan, etc
All he did was tell lies and such... still very confusing tho.

 

[PommyMommy]

We do know he is guilty of killing his pregnant wife and putting the bodies in #crude oil bc he has confessed to that . The motion about the may be prints on trash bags even stated the defendant won’t testify to bc it was relative to “collection evidence “ this was stated on second page of motion . The reason we have the information is his confession . I think the interview does indicate anxiety , deceit , stress, disbelief ,shock . We know he was not telling the truth during that interview bc now we have a confession as well . What is unclear is how to convict someone because you only believe 98% of the confession.

The motion does not say trash bags. It says "a bag." It doesn't say there may be prints, it says "made bare foot impressions." This is how rumors get started and grow legs, just like the dog barking at 5:15 that went on for pages and pages here earlier today. Here is the motion:
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/19th_Judicial_District/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/People's O.PDF

I am not trying to nit-pick, just simply trying to avoid pages and pages of "where did it say trash bags?"

MOO

 

[flourish]

Yes, because her social media videos promoting Thrive during what she thinks is a non-murderous family environment is equal to live news media interviews after he admittedly murdered his wife and unborn son and at the very least watched his precious daughters be murdered, and his entire family is supposedly missing.

I'm not sure this constitutes an "oh, snap" comparison. IMO of course.

I don't understand your point. Either it's "acceptable" to read things into the photos and videos we have, or it's not--for all parties. Also, I didn't say anything was "equal," so not sure where you're going with that.

 

[MassGuy]

I don’t think the coverup necessarily speaks for itself- but I agree that it’s the coverup that is really hard to get past (for me at least) and will be the biggest hurdle for his defense.
JMO.

I’ve spent days looking for a case where someone took the steps he took in regards to the coverup. I cannot find anything remotely similar.

Of course I found numerous cases where a guilty person did this, people who had killed their families.

 

[dgfred]

THANKS as always Flourish... well explained.

I just knew I could count on you for the common sense.

Just like old times... missed seeing and hearing your views on many subjects. As you can see... some cases just peak my 'seeker' interest.
So happy you are here.

 

[PommyMommy]

Her father is truly heartbreaking.

But again- I haven’t seen anyone here claiming CW acted like a bereaved father in those interviews. (For real question- has anyone claimed he acted like a normal bereaved father would?)

Not at all directed personally at you- but round and round the mulberry bush we keep going

I don't know that the words "bereaved father" were used, but yes. MOO

 

[flourish]

We do know he is guilty of killing his pregnant wife and putting the bodies in #crude oil bc he has confessed to that . The motion about the may be prints on trash bags even stated the defendant won’t testify to bc it was relative to “collection evidence “ this was stated on second page of motion . The reason we have the information is his confession . I think the interview does indicate anxiety , deceit , stress, disbelief ,shock . We know he was not telling the truth during that interview bc now we have a confession as well . What is unclear is how to convict someone because you only believe 98% of the confession.

Emotional shock can make folks think and feel and act in some odd ways, in my personal experience.

 

[Davia18]

Always good to see you!

I'm as surprised as you that I'm not in the majority here. It's strange for me, but also informative about how minorities on other cases may have perceived things.

I'm withholding judgement about his possibly killing the girls, because at this point, I have reasonable doubt on that. Additional evidence like Chris sized hand bruising or his DNA in significant amounts under nails, etc., will be incredibly likely to influence my thoughts and get me off the fence. I'm just not there yet.

I keep remembering how critical people were of me when my child was fatally injured. Before it became public knowledge that his father had injured him, my every expression was analyzed and no matter what, I was considered "wrong." If I was crying, I was "hysterical," if I wasn't, I was "cold." If I dared smile, well then I was clearly a monster. I was told I was "rather stoic" at his funeral. In short, I know what it's like to be in an awful position and be judged for every breath, every muscle movement, and I'm not keen on assuming the worst of him based on smiling in an interview.

Like I've mentioned before, my father is socially awkward, and laughs and smiles nervously whenever he is nervous, anxious, uncomfortable, unsure, etc.

I'll let the evidence tell me, and I'm fine with analyzing all the information available, including his interviews. However, there seems to be a double standard where, if one looks at him and finds all monster, and looks at SW and finds all perfection, then it's fine to use photos and videos to draw those conclusions, but when someone looks at those same photos and videos and comes to a different conclusion, well then they're victim blaming, disparaging, and just plain "wrong."

That's just where I am coming from at this point. I'd say more, but I've had enough tomatoes baths this week lol.

As always, my opinion is subject to change; and I have working theories which have him killing everyone, so I'm not stuck to one theory, I just still have reasonable doubt, subject to change with additional information.

I completely get your point and I'm so terribly sorry for your loss
However the reason CW is being seen differently from SW is his actions after the fact. If we go with his story (the only one we have since SW is deceased) then why the heck did he not try and save his children. Why the heck did he hide their bodies. I will be the first to say I was incorrect once we have the evidence and if it shows SW hurt the children then I'll know. This is not a case of SW being beaten to save his children and she's in jail.

 

[dgfred]

I’ve spent days looking for a case where someone took the steps he took in regards to the coverup. I cannot find anything remotely similar.

Of course I found numerous cases where a guilty person did this, people who had killed their families.

The coverup can be for several reasons tho:
Hiding what he had done
Hiding what she had done to protect reputation
Scared/Panicked
Etc

The defense can spin that part many ways... the prosecution will need to show that it was only the first one.

 

[Seattle1]

I am starting to think he immediately knew he was done for after killing SW... and didn't want the girls to live with a killed mom and a dad on death row/life for killing her. I can't believe for one second he actually thought he would 'get away' with what had happened... how could he?
He really did little to conceal what had happened. Hid the bodies at the only place he could, didn't hide other evidence, didn't have a real plan, etc
All he did was tell lies and such... still very confusing tho.

If CW believed he was done for, why the effort to assemble and transport his dead family 30+ miles to dump them... Why not just call police from the porch?

 

[katydid23]

You may interpret that as smiling I don't have to agree.

No, you don't have to agree. In my mind, when someones lips are making a particular shape, with the corners pointing up, as opposed to down, like a frown, then they are smiling. He is reminiscing about his girls, and as one might expect, when talking about ones children, he is making a smile shape with his mouth. JMO

 

[WildWest]

I've wanted to mention a few times here, but, not sure where so here it is by itself in response to if he was dirty and sweaty from digging a grave while at work. I've driven past sites like the dumping site for years, as well as played next to them in my youth (they were not fenced where I was way back in the day). It was hot,dusty and dirty, small breeze or little dust devil will leave fine dirt stuck to your sweaty face/neck, whatever. I would assume they wore work uniforms, or coveralls like in the one reenactment of the man climbing the stairs on a tank (I sold commercial/industrial uniforms for a couple years, which included a large oil company account I got between brighton and ft lupton and measured over 20 workers). I do not think being sweaty and dirty or dirt/sand/loam in his truck would be out of the normal. MEO

 

[Lore Listener]

Personal experience with my ex. And yes you are correct with the dv. I'm a survivor of 18 years of dv and my ex was arrested many times but because all charges where against me and never the children my ex did get 50/50. It took me over 15k and over a year and my children finally testifying (twice) that I got sole custody. When it was 50/50 he had to pay me still. When I got sole it was moved to over $900 a month. I have never seen a dime. I also walked away with nothing, from the house, vehicles and items in the home. I took children's blankets and some clothes .

So glad you made it out safe, it takes so much more strength than people realize. I had to do the same thing--walk away from my house that I loved, he wouldn't let me have my clothes back or even my mom's cookbooks. I really appreciate firsthand what it took for you to fight for your kids and start over. So that's how I ended up going back to school to be a Social Worker in DV. I don't want others to have to go through what we did. Pray for me to get full custody like you did, all I do is worry about my babies when they're with him.

Right now in Colorado, the laws would be that with 50/50, whatever parents makes more pays.

 

[Ur728]

They did request his DNA in one of the motions. Palm prints may not have been standard procedure in booking. The foot prints they definitely would not have taken during booking, so they certainly need to request those.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see where they asked for his DNA. Only swabs of the children's necks.