Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #33

[MsBetsy]

Which I would concede to but I don't understand how it can be then used to prove a point by the same people who dismissed the said images and videos as being a true representation.

Because the pictures are being used to show that he was there willingly, and smiling and posing for pictures. They are not being used to prove something about his personality and intentions, or how he interacted with his wife or how he treated her. The others were used to analyze and make assumptions about behavior and character. These observations were used to paint a negative picture of a murder victim, which could be used as evidence, which led to the assumption that the victim herself may have been capable of killing her children. That is the difference between the two. Jmo

 

[Best of What's Around]

I agree. IMO it wasn't just that he didn't want to pay alimony or child support or whatever-I think he literally wanted them gone, out of the picture as though they never existed. I believe he thought of them as objects. When you're finished with something you no longer want, you toss it. He was finished and ready to move on so he got rid of them. He didn't think about how that would hurt them, much less how it would hurt other people, because I believe he genuinely wasn't thinking of them as human beings at that point-just "things" in his way.

Agreed, sadly. It is so hard to understand but one must only look at his 3 media interviews to see he was not devastated in the slightest. Nor was he later, according to the Thayer's. IMO.

 

[Alethea]

I don't know how anyone can possibly come to a conclusion that a person is faking illness without being in the Drs office during visits or knowing what all prescriptions are for and when they were prescribed. If I remember correctly there were prescription bottles found. How would anyone know the dates on those bottles? Anyone stating that she was faking illnesses must be basing it on speculation alone. Jmo

Amen. Frankly I'm sick of that line of thought. Women put their families first and take care of themselves last often enough as it is. People should not be shamed for fighting for their medical rights and getting a diagnosis and treating their condition(s). There are entire cottage industries around ED treatment but women are doubted as looking for attention when after years of neglect by medical professionals they finally get a diagnosis of an autoimmune disorder or disease. A close friend was shamed by colleagues and even her own family for getting "tired" too often and she only found out after nearly dying in childbirth that she has a congenital heart defect. She never took her issue seriously because no one else did. It shouldn't take us nearly dying to get some respect when we say we don't feel ok. (end rant)

 

[cailleach]

CW is beyond sick, beyond twisted. Jurors are not going to forgive him for the way he disposed Bella and CeCe.
Dinner is ready and I don't have appetite.

The brutality revealed by the manner in which he disposed of them will not go unnoticed by the jury. It's hard to defend the indefensible. A person acting out of rage in a moment of trauma such as he claims does not have it in them to act in such a viscious manner against innocent children with the clockwork precision of someone who kills for pleasure. IMO he should rot in an impersonal hell like the one he created for his victims.

 

[Kensie]

Just like some wacko people treat pets as disposable objects, CW treated his flesh and blood as disposable objects. People can be so cruel.

 

[mtnlites]

Someone lend me an answer, please.
The 3- and 4 -year old daughters were manipulated into an 8" opening on the oil tank. Is that 8" measuring across? Or the circle itself is only 8" if measuring around the edges?

I'm attempting to mentally manipulate little girl heads and little girl shoulders into a tee-tiny little 8" hole. It isn't possible to do so, is it? Not without him doing the unimaginable beforehand.

As if everything else this monster did wasn't unimaginable enough.

CW says he didn't kill them. He "only" hid them in the tanks. He left out the heinous things he did to their little bodies before putting them in those nasty, scary, lonely tanks.

Seriously? Who in their natural, healthy mind would believe this monster did not kill these babies?

We're on a crime forum where all opinions are allowed and encouraged --within reason.

My opinions are above.

I agree. And let's say, for the sake of argument, that he DID freak out and panic and was afraid that he'd get charged with their murders. He had to load all three bodies into the truck and then take them all out after a 40-minute ride. There was apparently a bit of work to get the door of the tank open and then he had to manipulate the body to fit. Then he had to go to another tank and do it all over again. At some point, the adrenaline had to wear off. I could see MAYBE panicking in the beginning, but IMO that would've changed as the early morning hours went on. I find what he did to be unconscionable even if he wasn't the actual killer. (But, of course, I think he IS the murderer of all 4, so there's that.)

 

[Backstroke10]

I don't think he cared if she was busy with her MLM stuff. If she was busy with that, it gave him more time to text/chat/see his girlfriends and boyfriends. IMO

 

[AbbyG]

I am back for a moment here... I have learned how to employ "Ignore" so that helps, thanks for those who advised that. One question though -- it seems we are not allowed to question a VI at all, and yet what if the VI is just SO biased and spreads a lot of information that seems like she/he hates the victim for some reason? Doesn't seem right. And I will say it is quite a distortion to go from CW did housework to CW did MOST of the housework and childcare. Is this a game of telephone? It is quite obvious that SW factually did the bulk of cleaning, and child care, and taking kids to doctors, and being the one home with them, and giving them their meals... I am confused as to how one could state otherwise.

 

[Kensie]

Good post and probably true Backstroke.

 

[Johnny1181]

Amen. Frankly I'm sick of that line of thought. Women put their families first and take care of themselves last often enough as it is. People should not be shamed for fighting for their medical rights and getting a diagnosis and treating their condition(s). There are entire cottage industries around ED treatment but women are doubted as looking for attention when after years of neglect by medical professionals they finally get a diagnosis of an autoimmune disorder or disease. A close friend was shamed by colleagues and even her own family for getting "tired" too often and she only found out after nearly dying in childbirth that she has a congenital heart defect. She never took her issue seriously because no one else did. It shouldn't take us nearly dying to get some respect when we say we don't feel ok. (end rant)

So true. And perhaps Shanann was caught in this cycle

 

[mtnlites]

Amen. Frankly I'm sick of that line of thought. Women put their families first and take care of themselves last often enough as it is. People should not be shamed for fighting for their medical rights and getting a diagnosis and treating their condition(s). There are entire cottage industries around ED treatment but women are doubted as looking for attention when after years of neglect by medical professionals they finally get a diagnosis of an autoimmune disorder or disease. A close friend was shamed by colleagues and even her own family for getting "tired" too often and she only found out after nearly dying in childbirth that she has a congenital heart defect. She never took her issue seriously because no one else did. It shouldn't take us nearly dying to get some respect when we say we don't feel ok. (end rant)

Women are also more likely to die of heart attacks than men because they are not taken as seriously as often.

Considering the bad things that happened to SW and her children, the last thing I am going to do is make baseless claims about fake illnesses and hypochondria.

 

[MsBetsy]

SBM

I thought that I remembered reading several threads back that it was figured out through public records that she didn't really get anything when it came to the sale of her home in NC and that the downpayment placed on the CO home was very minscule? I'm so sorry that I don't have time to search out those threads/posts but maybe someone else here will remember more than I do, or the person who discovered that info will remember and set me straight?

If I remember correctly, the house was worth 400,000, and they still owed 370,000, at the time of the bankrupcy. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. So currently there would be more money put into the house but not very much imo. I could be wrong because I'm just going from memory. But yes, either way it does not seem like a large amount was initially put down. I think the mortgage was $ 3000 per month. But that's going from memory so don't quote me on that!

 

[Thepoet]

AB 9/27/18
1. Revolting new details. Bodies were not discovered or recovered easily. Took close to 8 hours to get children out of oil tanks. Had to drain up to 700 barrels of oil. Guests, Professor Wesley Williams and Joe Scott Morgan, explain how children were put in and removed from tanks. Took a great deal of effort and technical knowledge to do this. Can’t see how C.W. pulled it off without thinking about it ahead of time. Because LE was trying to preserve forensic evidence they probably brought in a vacuum truck, works like a wet dry shop vac. Insert hose and drain. Have to empty oil before entering and opening hatch on side. Standard API12F tank design. There are Thief Hatches on tops of tanks, 8” in diameter, (very small) you can open and close them. Bottom of tank square opening is called Clean Out Manway, 2’ by 3’ rectangular port. Takes 64 bolts to open, but tank must be empty to open, or you leak oil all over the place. Thief hatches (8” wide) are designed to take a measurement of tank level. Children were found in tanks that were nearly full. At best that tanks were producing about 200 barrels per month. CW probably shifted oil from one tank to another in order to get girls in them. Requires knowledge and time to do it. If tanks were nearly full, estimating 500 gallons, it would take 3 months at 200 gallons per month to completely fill them up. Bodies wouldn’t have been discovered for at least 3 months. There is a pump that goes between the two tanks, CW could pump 1 tank into the other tank, and open the Clean Out Manway. No way could children fit in the Thief Hatch. CW left house at 5:30, it would take an hour each to empty each tank. (Using the pump between, not the vacuum truck.) Removing 128 bolts takes a lot of time. Because CW didn’t have enough time to do all this work, CW would have had to shoved them through the 8” Thief Hatches. Bodies had to have been manipulated (twisted and contorted) postmortem, in order to fit them through the 8” Thief Hatches. Rather gruesome task. When Jessica McClure fell into an oil well in 1987, that well was 8” wide, but Jessica McClure was 18 months old.
2. Guest, Police Officer, Sean Sticks Larkin explains that this situation is far from normal. Officers most important job is to contain the scene and to recover the evidence. If there’s no danger of evidence being contaminated, they call professionals for advice.
3. Guest, Wesley Williams, explains oil is fluid, flows quickly. Oil is not very difficult to remove from skin.
4. Yesterday, both SW’s mother and father were at SW’s house removing the belongings. SW’s brother and SW’s friend, Lauren Arnold, was there, too. This move was about removing memories. Children’s clothes and toys will be donated to local churches. Family heirloom pieces from SW’s side of family will be kept by family.
5. Social media has been ruthless and cruel to family and family is aware. Statement from family spokesperson. (See photo)
6. Guest Steve Helling from People Magazine agreed that people have been awful on Facebook.
7. Family stayed in a hotel, and besides removing articles from SW’s home, they attended a private memorial for SW at the Carbon Valley Rec Center. Watts family originally had family passes to rec center but they expired in March. SW’s mom, Sandy also visited with the District Attorney today. Family is part of the investigation.
8. New documents today. CW must turn over DNA and prints to DA.
9. Other evidence found at site according to Helling. Bag was marked Evidence #26, that means 25 pieces of evidence came before it. Most we don’t know about.
10. Autopsies will remain private for now. When they are completed they will be handed over to Defense, and Court will make decision to make them public.
11. Guest, Defense Attorney, David Beller, explained Defense Attorneys are doing own investigation with information that is available to them now.
12. SW’s Mom’s meetings with Prosecutor is fulfilling Colorado State Law. Prosecutors must keep family up to date on all aspects of case, every step. In the end, Prosecutors will likely ask SW’s family what they want to see happen. Do they want a trial, do they not want a trial?
Viewer Question
1. Will attorneys ever offer a plea deal where C.W. will be required to tell full, honest truth of his motive and exactly what really happened, and in return they would take the death penalty off the table? It happens. Plea discussions happen all the time. Conversations start early. Yes, they could make such a bargain, but it doesn’t happen often. Since Defense doesn’t have any discovery, they don’t know what they’re up against, so they’re not talking plea, yet.
2. When do you believe we will see autopsy results, forensics, and an actual trial on Chris Watts? Beller said, It’s going to be a long time, at least a year. AB agreed, and added if it’s going to be a Death Penalty case, 3 years. Elizabeth Smart case took 10 years to bring justice.
3. Do you think the family has come back to be told some things in person before autopsy is made public? The DA may want to spare family shocking details before public? Prosecutors do work with family, they do tell them things before public. Guest, Sea Sticks Larkin explained, DA offices have Victim Witness Centers. Advocates deal directly with family. A case of the magnitude will offer family support, so family is not blindsided in public. Sometimes these situations are hard on LE, there are counselors to help LE, as well.

Bravo! Thanks so much for all the time and effort you put in to doing this for us! You're a marvel! (Kinda like a super hero) It really helps all of us.

 

[PommyMommy]

Someone lend me an answer, please.
The 3- and 4 -year old daughters were manipulated into an 8" opening on the oil tank. Is that 8" measuring across? Or the circle itself is only 8" if measuring around the edges?

I'm attempting to mentally manipulate little girl heads and little girl shoulders into a tee-tiny little 8" hole. It isn't possible to do so, is it? Not without him doing the unimaginable beforehand.

As if everything else this monster did wasn't unimaginable enough.

CW says he didn't kill them. He "only" hid them in the tanks. He left out the heinous things he did to their little bodies before putting them in those nasty, scary, lonely tanks.

Seriously? Who in their natural, healthy mind would believe this monster did not kill these babies?

We're on a crime forum where all opinions are allowed and encouraged --within reason.

My opinions are above.

I'm going to watch this as soon as I get caught up because I'm not sure I read what I read...

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=329890524437521

 

[Allabouttrial]

Because the pictures are being used to show that he was there willingly, and smiling and posing for pictures. They are not being used to prove something about his personality and intentions, or how he interacted with his wife or how he treated her. The others were used to analyze and make assumptions about behavior and character. These observations were used to paint a negative picture of a murder victim, which could be used as evidence, which led to the assumption that the victim herself may have been capable of killing her children. That is the difference between the two. Jmo

Which I do appreciate, though the original post I was responding to was:

Yeah, doesn't look like he's complaining to me.
MOO

Snipped by me for clarity.

There was an assumption made that he wasn't complaining. So I replied:

Which I would concede to but I don't understand how it can be then used to prove a point by the same people who dismissed the said images and videos as being a true representation.

 

[Johnny1181]

Women are also more likely to die of heart attacks than men because they are not taken as seriously as often.

Considering the bad things that happened to SW and her children, the last thing I am going to do is make baseless claims about fake illnesses and hypochondria.

I believe the love in Shanann's SM posts.

I believe CW lied in his porch videos.

After he dumped CeCe and Bella, who were sisters, in separate tanks of oil and shoveled dirt over his wife Shanann and unborn son Nico. After strangling her to death.

Per the affadavit.

jmo

 

[MsBetsy]

I agree. IMO it wasn't just that he didn't want to pay alimony or child support or whatever-I think he literally wanted them gone, out of the picture as though they never existed. I believe he thought of them as objects. When you're finished with something you no longer want, you toss it. He was finished and ready to move on so he got rid of them. He didn't think about how that would hurt them, much less how it would hurt other people, because I believe he genuinely wasn't thinking of them as human beings at that point-just "things" in his way.

That's what I think. He was just done. Once he made up his mind that was the end. Imo

 

[mtnlites]

I am back for a moment here... I have learned how to employ "Ignore" so that helps, thanks for those who advised that. One question though -- it seems we are not allowed to question a VI at all, and yet what if the VI is just SO biased and spreads a lot of information that seems like she/he hates the victim for some reason? Doesn't seem right. And I will say it is quite a distortion to go from CW did housework to CW did MOST of the housework and childcare. Is this a game of telephone? It is quite obvious that SW factually did the bulk of cleaning, and child care, and taking kids to doctors, and being the one home with them, and giving them their meals... I am confused as to how one could state otherwise.

I believe the VIs know information as it was presented to them. That information may or may not have been true. For instance, CW could have told a VI that he was the one who wanted a separation. While it would be true as the VI reported it, it doesn't mean that CW was truthful about it to start with. As far as the medical stuff goes...My in-laws didn't believe that I had brain surgery until my husband literally took a video of me post op and put it on Facebook. If people are questioning the medical stuff, unless they lived in the house with the family, accompanied SW to doctors' visits, and actually was a part of her treatment then all they basically have is an opinion of what went on. My own brother wouldn't be able to tell you about some of my conditions, much less my husband's.

 

[katydid23]

We had a VI verify C.W. involvement and SW work took her a lot of weekends out of town which is normal for her status. On SW SM she brags multiple times about him with this as proof IMO he would not be afraid to hold the responsibility of children as a motive to murder

I don't think anyone has said he was 'afraid' to hold responsibility for the children. It seems more likely it was more an issue of not wanting to do so anymore. JMO

 

[molly1255]

I respect that a VI may have special inside knowledge about a case and/or the individuals involved in the case because they have known the family prior to the incident and they have first hand personal experiences and insight about the family ~ this is extremely valuable information for the forum.[/QUOTE]

It is way more valuable if the nature of the relationship of the VI to the accused and the victim is made clear, IMO. I'm not suggesting for anyone to jeopardize their privacy in order to satisfy the curiosity of others. Not at all, and no disrespect is intended in what I'm saying. I think it would be very difficult to be a VI for many reasons and I'm not sure I could do it myself.

In speaking for myself, I'm just not able to give a lot of weight to statements made unless I understand the relationship a VI had to each party, and whether a bias or other dynamics might exist while others may accept what is said without question.

JMO.