Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #41

[Tippy Lynn]

I'm curious if CW put the girls in non porous bags prior to dumping them in the oil tanks.

 

[Lorelei1]

Huge speculation here. It could just be a matter of preference. The girls could wear shoes, especially Cece, for stability on slippery floors. It is probably tough to tell if Shanann is wearing shoes in the house a lot because she is the one filming the videos?

IMO I always assumed that the crime happened upstairs. I put myself in her position coming home that late, pregnant, exhausted, not feeling too well, being away from home for literally weeks and wanting my own bed. I would come in, kick my shoes off right inside the door (I'd imagine it would be a relief), drop my purse and keys on the counter, grab my phone and head upstairs.

I think whatever happened was in the master bedroom on the bed and it was easiest to drag her and move her in the fitted sheet. I haven't decided whether I believe that she was asleep and he caught her in a choke hold from the back, or if she was laying on the bed and he sat on her facing her with his knees over her arms and strangled her that way to where she couldn't fight or scratch back. I'm heavily leaning towards the second because of the lack of scratches or bites on his face and his arms/hands/wrists, which were all visible in the interviews. I also don't know whether I think she was resting with her guard down or sleeping on her back that way, or if he hit/pushed her or grabbed her wrists and took her down. His upper body strength would be no match for hers, especially when IMO she didn't see it coming.

After a lot of thought, I am choosing not to believe she knew her babies were dead before she died. I am completely split on whether he killed them before she got home or after he murdered Shanann (IMO he did kill them), but I sincerely doubt he would risk letting her know that and hoping to come off without any yelling, screaming and marks of some kind.

I would think the autopsy will clarify both whether she was strangled from the front or from the back, and if she was hit or beaten, and if she has bruising on her wrists or arms, etc. With her not in the oil tanks I would think the evidence would be easier to collect and detect than on those poor babies.

Again, ALL JMO.

Those are my thoughts as well. IMO I think it happened in their bedroom with her back to him, hopefully asleep. I too am unsure if the girls were killed before or after her. If before, I’m wondering if they could have been positioned to appear on the monitor as though they were sleeping. It’s just too awful to think about.

 

[Seattle1]

I go shoeless, my kids tend to keep theirs on longer. It's a personal preference in my house, maybe it was in hers as well.

I'm not sure why a shoe or no shoe issue surfaced but I recall a Christmas video and a big deal about slippers from Santa for the girls.

 

[AbstractVino]

Usually in the bedroom right next to the bed. Where to Place Your Panic Buttons: Keep Calm and Think Strategic

Do we know which home security system they had? We have Vivint which is similar to some of the alerts I noticed in her SM videos. Would be interested to know because the system itself will be a handbook to what happened.

 

[BeanieBod]

My mind has been wondering about things left behind:

1. What happened to Shanann's car? IIRC, it was a leased vehicle. Would the leasing company have to get approval from the local police to pick it up?
2. Who is paying the mortgage if it was reaffirmed from the bankruptcy?
3. Can the house be sold by CW while he is in jail for murdering the other owner?
   
4. Did the HOA write off those overdue fees?
5. Since CW was still employed by Anadarko when the murders occurred, will the life insurance be paid? Will it be placed in an escrow account? Who would file the insurance claim?

Thanks for the indulgence.

 

[human]

We're firmly in the "shoes off at the door" group here. Bare feet, slippers or indoors only shoes. I'm weird like that. lol As related to the case, why are we discussing shoes? (Just coming in from the office and behind. Sorry!)

poster the poet said this:

eeling well was worry. She arrived home, put everything down, removed her shoes and rushed upstairs to check on her daughters. It seems that CW wouldn't let her speak to the girls earlier (before she got home) and we know that SW didn't leave things lying around (shoes, purse, keys, suitcase). So, why that night? It's out of character, even if she was tired and didn't feel well! Then, CW attacks her and subdues her before she can fight back. Her phone ends up in the cushions

—————-

So I was wondering if taking off shoes wasn’t part of their family rules. I guess not

 

[Layla123]

AB 10/09/18
1. CW has photo of SW. BW, and C.W. in his cell as well as a Bible. Is it for show, was he advised by the Defense to display these items in his cell, so he’d look good? Or is CW a man who is deep in mourning? We don’t know what he’s thinking. Scott Peterson had Laci’s photo in his cell. OJ had a picture of Nicole in his cell. There could be an innocent explanation. Prisoners can get permission to have pictures of loved ones in their cells. It’s very common for prisoners to have religious materials in jail. If he’s on Close Watch Protocol he’s not supposed to have reading material in his room.That may have changed, nobody knows. The Weld County Jail has a Public Information Officer who has never once returned a call to AB.
2. The Defense is not concerned about the autopsy reports. Could infer that there’s nothing more incriminating in them. Defense claims they don’t care. C.W. has already been damaged by leaks, the autopsy information will come out at the Preliminary Hearing, anyway, but they are interested in learning about Prosecution witnesses who might be tainted. Guest Defense Attorney, Renee Sandler says she wouldn’t be so cavalier about an Autopsy report. She wouldn’t want those results out, both sides need to protect witnesses, both sides need to protect taint. It works both ways. The Defense said, “Mr. Watts rights to a fundamentally fair proceeding and, ultimately, a fair and impartial jury at trial, have been so substantially damaged in this case, it does not see, that in any prophylactic order, at least on the narrow issue of whether the autopsies should be released, can serve to salvage the wreckage of those rights which may remain.” Really dramatic stuff. Defense is suggesting they are already doomed. It’s a Death Penalty case, they have to set up an appeal before they even try the case. The Defense said, “The government has made no further proffer with respect to which witnesses it intends to interview that have not been interviewed nor how what those witnesses have to say that could be impacted by the contents of the autopsies.” Defense is trying to make an argument that so much damage has been done CW can’t get a fair trial. Once they get some discovery, and find out who some of the witnesses are, Defense may change their strategy.
3. AB showed SW’s online baby blog pre Bella’s birth. CW seemed to equally participate in that blog. SW has left so many SM posts, the Prosecution won’t have to recreate her as a victim, she did it herself.
4. SW’s guest Pat LaMama, from Radaronline disagrees with AB about SW’s videos. AB thinks the videos show SW was a happy person who enjoys being on video, LaMama thinks some of the videos show SW as pathetic and desperate for attention and not very happy.
5. Progression videos chronicle pregnancy with Bella. The day they found out they were pregnant, CW said he was so happy.
6. Guest, Investigator, Tom Verni explains that investigators will pore over videos, and both Prosecution and Defense will use whatever they feel is advantageous to their case. Guest Defense Attorney, Rene Sandler, explains, when she looks at videos she looks for timeline, investigative leads, and how she can get them admitted into evidence, if at all. It’s hearsay. You can’t cross examine it. It won’t come in unless it fits into an exception under the hearsay rule. It’s difficult, it’s a text by text, blog by blog analysis. AB showed blog entry where C.W. lovingly worked on Bella’s nursery, asked if the Defense could use it. LaMama said the defense has to be careful about opening a door, once it’s opened it’s wide open and it’s a free for all for all sides. They have to be tactical and strategic.
7. What was in the evidence bags removed from the house? Bags were see through. Looked likely bedding. Pink and blue and yellow sheets and blankets. Guest, Forensic investigator, Joseph Scott Morgan, explains, because CW was having an affair Police must be entertaining the thought that other parties might be involved. They will be using DNA to determine individualization of evidence. Was someone else in the home that wasn’t part of the family unit? If AP was in SW’s and CW’s bed her DNA might be there. Will the bedding tell who strangled the children? Is there hair there? Is there DNA? Did the victims regurgitate sputum? Mix of blood and sputum? Guest, Morgan is is concerned about the quality of the evidence because LE put the evidence in plastic bags. Plastic is bad because it can sweat and can compromise the integrity of the biological sample. It’s not good to commingle evidence from different places, either.
Viewer Questions
1. I noticed in videos that Shanann kept her home impossibly clean, all the way down to the inside of the pantry. How long do you think it took investigators to realize that anything out of place would have been considered a big deal? Keeping a clean house like she did would be very helpful. Right away you could tell if things were out of place, if there had been a struggle.
2. If this goes to trial will they allow cameras in the courtroom? It’s a State by State thing, Colorado does allow cameras in the courtroom, but it will come down to the judge. Does he think it will be a circus or does he think the public has a right to know step by step?
3. When time for trial if there is a trial the attorneys need to find out who these women and men are in love with the maniac so they don’t get chosen on the jury! Defense Attorney Sandler says in the search for the truth, both sides are given an opportunity to question potential jurors to see if there are any biases or prejudices, to see if they can be fair and impartial.
4. Why is this case taking so long when he confessed? Police say he confessed, but C.W. might fight that, so it might be suppressed, and they’re going to handle this like CW hasn’t confessed. Nothing will be taken for granted. There will be a thorough investigation. Very involved case. CW was charged with 9 felonies, including 5 counts of First Degree Murder.

 

[PommyMommy]

Do we know which home security system they had? We have Vivint which is similar to some of the alerts I noticed in her SM videos. Would be interested to know because the system itself will be a handbook to what happened.

According to technology expert Mark Saltzman, they had a Vivint system. Here is a CNN transcript with AB and Saltzman discussing the security system features: CNN.com - Transcripts

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Why can he have a Bible and no other books?

Maybe he hasn't read it yet? It's been on his to-do list?

 

[MassGuy]

AB 9/09/18
1. CW has photo of SW. BW, and C.W. in his cell as well as a Bible. Is it for show, was he advised by the Defense to display these items in his cell, so he’d look good? Or is CW a man who is deep in mourning? We don’t know what he’s thinking. Scott Peterson had Laci’s photo in his cell. OJ had a picture of Nicole in his cell. There could be an innocent explanation. Prisoners can get permission to have pictures of loved ones in their cells. It’s very common for prisoners to have religious materials in jail. If he’s on Close Watch Protocol he’s not supposed to have reading material in his room.That may have changed, nobody knows. The Weld County Jail has a Public Information Officer who has never once returned a call to AB.
2. The Defense is not concerned about the autopsy reports. Could infer that there’s nothing more incriminating in them. Defense claims they don’t care. C.W. has already been damaged by leaks, the autopsy information will come out at the Preliminary Hearing, anyway, but they are interested in learning about Prosecution witnesses who might be tainted. Guest Defense Attorney, Renee Sandler says she wouldn’t be so cavalier about an Autopsy report. She wouldn’t want those results out, both sides need to protect witnesses, both sides need to protect taint. It works both ways. The Defense said, “Mr. Watts rights to a fundamentally fair proceeding and, ultimately, a fair and impartial jury at trial, have been so substantially damaged in this case, it does not see, that in any prophylactic order, at least on the narrow issue of whether the autopsies should be released, can serve to salvage the wreckage of those rights which may remain.” Really dramatic stuff. Defense is suggesting they are already doomed. It’s a Death Penalty case, they have to set up an appeal before they even try the case. The Defense said, “The government has made no further proffer with respect to which witnesses it intends to interview that have not been interviewed nor how what those witnesses have to say that could be impacted by the contents of the autopsies.” Defense is trying to make an argument that so much damage has been done CW can’t get a fair trial. Once they get some discovery, and find out who some of the witnesses are, Defense may change their strategy.
3. AB showed SW’s online baby blog pre Bella’s birth. CW seemed to equally participate in that blog. SW has left so many SM posts, the Prosecution won’t have to recreate her as a victim, she did it herself.
4. SW’s guest Pat LaMama, from *********** disagrees with AB about SW’s videos. AB thinks the videos show SW was a happy person who enjoys being on video, LaMama thinks some of the videos show SW as pathetic and desperate for attention and not very happy.
5. Progression videos chronicle pregnancy with Bella. The day they found out they were pregnant, CW said he was so happy.
6. Guest, Investigator, Tom Verni explains that investigators will pore over videos, and both Prosecution and Defense will use whatever they feel is advantageous to their case. Guest Defense Attorney, Rene Sandler, explains, when she looks at videos she looks for timeline, investigative leads, and how she can get them admitted into evidence, if at all. It’s hearsay. You can’t cross examine it. It won’t come in unless it fits into an exception under the hearsay rule. It’s difficult, it’s a text by text, blog by blog analysis. AB showed blog entry where C.W. lovingly worked on Bella’s nursery, asked if the Defense could use it. LaMama said the defense has to be careful about opening a door, once it’s opened it’s wide open and it’s a free for all for all sides. They have to be tactical and strategic.
7. What was in the evidence bags removed from the house? Bags were see through. Looked likely bedding. Pink and blue and yellow sheets and blankets. Guest, Forensic investigator, Joseph Scott Morgan, explains, because SW was having an affair Police must be entertaining the thought that other parties might be involved. They will be using DNA to determine individualization of evidence. Was someone else in the home that wasn’t part of the family unit? If AP was in SW’s and CW’s bed her DNA might be there. Will the bedding tell who strangled the children? Is there hair there? Is there DNA? Did the victims regurgitate sputum? Mix of blood and sputum? Guest, Morgan is is concerned about the quality of the evidence because LE put the evidence in plastic bags. Plastic is bad because it can sweat and can compromise the integrity of the biological sample. It’s not good to commingle evidence from different places, either.
Viewer Questions
1. I noticed in videos that Shanann kept her home impossibly clean, all the way down to the inside of the pantry. How long do you think it took investigators to realize that anything out of place would have been considered a big deal? Keeping a clean house like she did would be very helpful. Right away you could tell if things were out of place, if there had been a struggle.
2. If this goes to trial will they allow cameras in the courtroom? It’s a State by State thing, Colorado does allow cameras in the courtroom, but it will come down to the judge. Does he think it will be a circus or does he think the public has a right to know step by step?
3. When time for trial if there is a trial the attorneys need to find out who these women and men are in love with the maniac so they don’t get chosen on the jury! Defense Attorney Sandler says in the search for the truth, both sides are given an opportunity to question potential jurors to see if there are any biases or prejudices, to see if they can be fair and impartial.
4. Why is this case taking so long when he confessed? Police say he confessed, but C.W. might fight that, so it might be suppressed, and they’re going to handle this like CW hasn’t confessed. Nothing will be taken for granted. There will be a thorough investigation. Very involved case. CW was charged with 9 felonies, including 5 counts of First Degree Murder.

I don’t even bother watching the show anymore. There’s no point when I can get completely caught up in one minute. Thanks!

 

[Gardener1850]

@WildWest, Regarding your post about the bags the police brought out.
Your post...
Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #40
"I cannot make heads or tails of what bedding is in the bag I just pray the couple darker spots are patterns on the bedding fabric and not bodily fluids (urine, blood, feces, vomit, maybe even semen there too). Also wondering if each entire bedset were taken in separate bags from the other beds. Our twin sized bedding, mattress cover, sheets, pillow & comforter could look like that bag. Morbid, sorry, I wonder if there were more fluids on the bedding than the pillows"

I think the yellow at the bottom is a 'GoMoji Bean Bag'.
The black you see in the bag could be the 'face' on the bean bag.
emoji bean bag chair
Bean bag pics from these links...
Thrive Healthy Fit Mom on Instagram: “Thought I was done cleaning.....We call Celeste the #destroyer every time she goes into a room she dumps ALL of the bins and then plays!…”
Thrive Healthy Fit Mom on Instagram: “Who is #DUOing it with their Thrive Experience?”

Post with bags here:
Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #40

Picture of bag from this link here:
Christopher Watts is denied bail in the murder of his wife and young children | Daily Mail Online
Edit... The picture of CW has a beanbag , if you look closely.
View attachment 150352 View attachment 150353 View attachment 150354 View attachment 150355 View attachment 150356 View attachment 150357

This is such superb investigating whisperOFwings!

I think you are right and that is what is in the evidence bag.

What do we think it means?

I have been pondering this....

They seem to have owned more than one of those from the photos.

Would that beanbag be considered a "non-porous bag"?

 

[MassGuy]

This is such superb investigating whisperOFwings!

I think you are right and that is what is in the evidence bag.

What do we think it means?

I have been pondering this....

They seem to have more than one of those from the photos.

Would that beanbag be considered a "non-porous bag"?

No. I still think the nonporous bag is something like a trash bag.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Maybe he hasn't read it yet? It's been on his to-do list?

I'm sure he couldn't wait to get to it.

 

[human]

Huge speculation here. It could just be a matter of preference. The girls could wear shoes, especially Cece, for stability on slippery floors. It is probably tough to tell if Shanann is wearing shoes in the house a lot because she is the one filming the videos?

IMO I always assumed that the crime happened upstairs. I put myself in her position coming home that late, pregnant, exhausted, not feeling too well, being away from home for literally weeks and wanting my own bed. I would come in, kick my shoes off right inside the door (I'd imagine it would be a relief), drop my purse and keys on the counter, grab my phone and head upstairs.

I think whatever happened was in the master bedroom on the bed and it was easiest to drag her and move her in the fitted sheet. I haven't decided whether I believe that she was asleep and he caught her in a choke hold from the back, or if she was laying on the bed and he sat on her facing her with his knees over her arms and strangled her that way to where she couldn't fight or scratch back. I'm heavily leaning towards the second because of the lack of scratches or bites on his face and his arms/hands/wrists, which were all visible in the interviews. I also don't know whether I think she was resting with her guard down or sleeping on her back that way, or if he hit/pushed her or grabbed her wrists and took her down. His upper body strength would be no match for hers, especially when IMO she didn't see it coming.

After a lot of thought, I am choosing not to believe she knew her babies were dead before she died. I am completely split on whether he killed them before she got home or after he murdered Shanann (IMO he did kill them), but I sincerely doubt he would risk letting her know that and hoping to come off without any yelling, screaming and marks of some kind.

I would think the autopsy will clarify both whether she was strangled from the front or from the back, and if she was hit or beaten, and if she has bruising on her wrists or arms, etc. With her not in the oil tanks I would think the evidence would be easier to collect and detect than on those poor babies.

Again, ALL JMO.

I think getting her from behind would be the easiest, but isn’t sleeping on the stomach when pregnant difficult?

 

[PommyMommy]

AB 9/09/18
1. CW has photo of SW. BW, and C.W. in his cell as well as a Bible. Is it for show, was he advised by the Defense to display these items in his cell, so he’d look good? Or is CW a man who is deep in mourning? We don’t know what he’s thinking. Scott Peterson had Laci’s photo in his cell. OJ had a picture of Nicole in his cell. There could be an innocent explanation. Prisoners can get permission to have pictures of loved ones in their cells. It’s very common for prisoners to have religious materials in jail. If he’s on Close Watch Protocol he’s not supposed to have reading material in his room.That may have changed, nobody knows. The Weld County Jail has a Public Information Officer who has never once returned a call to AB.
2. The Defense is not concerned about the autopsy reports. Could infer that there’s nothing more incriminating in them. Defense claims they don’t care. C.W. has already been damaged by leaks, the autopsy information will come out at the Preliminary Hearing, anyway, but they are interested in learning about Prosecution witnesses who might be tainted. Guest Defense Attorney, Renee Sandler says she wouldn’t be so cavalier about an Autopsy report. She wouldn’t want those results out, both sides need to protect witnesses, both sides need to protect taint. It works both ways. The Defense said, “Mr. Watts rights to a fundamentally fair proceeding and, ultimately, a fair and impartial jury at trial, have been so substantially damaged in this case, it does not see, that in any prophylactic order, at least on the narrow issue of whether the autopsies should be released, can serve to salvage the wreckage of those rights which may remain.” Really dramatic stuff. Defense is suggesting they are already doomed. It’s a Death Penalty case, they have to set up an appeal before they even try the case. The Defense said, “The government has made no further proffer with respect to which witnesses it intends to interview that have not been interviewed nor how what those witnesses have to say that could be impacted by the contents of the autopsies.” Defense is trying to make an argument that so much damage has been done CW can’t get a fair trial. Once they get some discovery, and find out who some of the witnesses are, Defense may change their strategy.
3. AB showed SW’s online baby blog pre Bella’s birth. CW seemed to equally participate in that blog. SW has left so many SM posts, the Prosecution won’t have to recreate her as a victim, she did it herself.
4. SW’s guest Pat LaMama, from *********** disagrees with AB about SW’s videos. AB thinks the videos show SW was a happy person who enjoys being on video, LaMama thinks some of the videos show SW as pathetic and desperate for attention and not very happy.
5. Progression videos chronicle pregnancy with Bella. The day they found out they were pregnant, CW said he was so happy.
6. Guest, Investigator, Tom Verni explains that investigators will pore over videos, and both Prosecution and Defense will use whatever they feel is advantageous to their case. Guest Defense Attorney, Rene Sandler, explains, when she looks at videos she looks for timeline, investigative leads, and how she can get them admitted into evidence, if at all. It’s hearsay. You can’t cross examine it. It won’t come in unless it fits into an exception under the hearsay rule. It’s difficult, it’s a text by text, blog by blog analysis. AB showed blog entry where C.W. lovingly worked on Bella’s nursery, asked if the Defense could use it. LaMama said the defense has to be careful about opening a door, once it’s opened it’s wide open and it’s a free for all for all sides. They have to be tactical and strategic.
7. What was in the evidence bags removed from the house? Bags were see through. Looked likely bedding. Pink and blue and yellow sheets and blankets. Guest, Forensic investigator, Joseph Scott Morgan, explains, because SW was having an affair Police must be entertaining the thought that other parties might be involved. They will be using DNA to determine individualization of evidence. Was someone else in the home that wasn’t part of the family unit? If AP was in SW’s and CW’s bed her DNA might be there. Will the bedding tell who strangled the children? Is there hair there? Is there DNA? Did the victims regurgitate sputum? Mix of blood and sputum? Guest, Morgan is is concerned about the quality of the evidence because LE put the evidence in plastic bags. Plastic is bad because it can sweat and can compromise the integrity of the biological sample. It’s not good to commingle evidence from different places, either.
Viewer Questions
1. I noticed in videos that Shanann kept her home impossibly clean, all the way down to the inside of the pantry. How long do you think it took investigators to realize that anything out of place would have been considered a big deal? Keeping a clean house like she did would be very helpful. Right away you could tell if things were out of place, if there had been a struggle.
2. If this goes to trial will they allow cameras in the courtroom? It’s a State by State thing, Colorado does allow cameras in the courtroom, but it will come down to the judge. Does he think it will be a circus or does he think the public has a right to know step by step?
3. When time for trial if there is a trial the attorneys need to find out who these women and men are in love with the maniac so they don’t get chosen on the jury! Defense Attorney Sandler says in the search for the truth, both sides are given an opportunity to question potential jurors to see if there are any biases or prejudices, to see if they can be fair and impartial.
4. Why is this case taking so long when he confessed? Police say he confessed, but C.W. might fight that, so it might be suppressed, and they’re going to handle this like CW hasn’t confessed. Nothing will be taken for granted. There will be a thorough investigation. Very involved case. CW was charged with 9 felonies, including 5 counts of First Degree Murder.

Thank you Layla! It looks like you have a boo boo in #7 regarding who was having an affair?
MOO

ETA: I see it's been fixed.

 

[Gardener1850]

No. I still think the nonporous bag is something like a trash bag.

That seems likely to me too, just trying to think outside the box.

Any thoughts on why they may have collected a beanbag from the house?

 

[MassGuy]

That seems likely to me too, just trying to think outside the box.

Any thoughts on why they may have collected a beanbag from the house?

I’ve got nothing. But you always take more evidence than you need, because you can’t go back and get it in most cases.

Once the crime scene loses its integrity, physical evidence loses its value.

 

[?mysterian?]

That seems likely to me too, just trying to think outside the box.

Any thoughts on why they may have collected a beanbag from the house?

Maybe some kind of evidence was visible, or a dog alerted on it?

 

[compass]

Those are my thoughts as well. IMO I think it happened in their bedroom with her back to him, hopefully asleep. I too am unsure if the girls were killed before or after her. If before, I’m wondering if they could have been positioned to appear on the monitor as though they were sleeping. It’s just too awful to think about.

I agree, if the girls were killed first I wonder if he could have convinced her they were spending night away. I think he was a coward and would not have wanted any confrontation. MOO

 

[Layla123]

“Guest, Morgan is is concerned about the quality of the evidence because LE put the evidence in plastic bags. Plastic is bad because it can sweat and can compromise the integrity of the biological sample. It’s not good to commingle evidence from different places, either.”

This is from AB today. Is it true? Has other evidence been tossed because it was gathered in plastic bags? Didn’t the Defense take theirs out in plastic bags, too?